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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2016 04:10 PM |
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AnkVaati said:
Summed up my own idea of a good Heroes game sometime ago:
From Heroes 1-4:
- Creature system like Heroes 4 (with choices), but with at least two additional tiers as well and probably more choices as well.
- Heroes that fight on the battlefield, if this can be balanced properly
- Additional hero classes with additional bonuses depending on skills (like in Heores 4)
- Caravans - possibly visible on the map (can be robbed, raided if a lucky enemy encounters them)
- Alignments. Theme-based towns that gives the feeling of "classic fantasy".
- Terry B. Ray's terrific writing! (back to Axeoth and finally tell us what happened with all these amazing characters)
From Heroes 5-7:
- Initiative system
- H5's skill system and magic schools
- Alternative upgrades (for some, not all creatures should even have upgrades IMHO)
- The fact that your actions can influence some kind of personal alignment
- Control zones
- Tech tree (in some shape or form)
- Unique war machines
Additional:
- Neutral factions that can be interacted with
- Diplomacy between factions
- More random events/quests
^all of the above should be optional for the people who want a more pure strategy game
- Semi-towns for smaller factions that don't really need a full-fledged faction of their own.
- Easy modability. Think Stellaris or other Paradox games.
I can agree with most of those things. Story for example doesn't matter to me, but got nothing against. Caravans are fine though I really would like them to avoid neutral creatures that spawn from x weeks. Loved the idea of heroes on battlefields and at the very least they should have their own turns and be effectived by status effects. Also the class system in h4 was great IMO.
Loved h5 initiative system and skill-system(two of the things made it my favorite game of the series). Alt upgrades, I could easily see this working with the h4 system: Make some creatures for example stronger and/or more cost efficient than creature that can be upgraded. Control zones I'd hope with some more leniency that you could steal a mine for example for week or two rather than just pillage. I don't really know what you mean by tech tree, building chart in town builder? If so I'd hope more lenient system than h5, some requirements are fine, but never the kind of monstrosities like h7 had building needing level x with dozen other buildings. At most a building could have like 4-5 other specific buildings on some special case or faction(town levels I would just scrap all together).
Overall I'd say what you list is quite close to things that I would expect see in ultimate heroes game.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 17, 2016 04:15 PM |
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Creature choices AND alt upgrades? 
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted August 17, 2016 04:29 PM |
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I am not fan of that sort of thing either. When they released all those alt upgrades in ToE, I thought I was back to my teens, when I would think that sort of thing so cool. It felt like trying to embrace the whole world at once. Still consider H2 mixed with H4 tier/unit system the most appealing, whether you would have choices between some units, some units being upgradable, others not. Bring up some real uniqueness instead of creating layers and layers of eye-candies.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted August 17, 2016 05:33 PM |
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Two things I really disliked were 1) heroes on the battlefield and 2) alternative units/upgrades. The latter is a combination of me being a completionist and a casual player. I don't like not being able to build or recruit something. It just bothers me.
And since I'm usually not able to play more than an hour or two a day, I will never be able to memorise all the stats or abilities of the different alternatives. So I will either spend a lot of time looking them up and comparing each time, or (more likely) choose one over the other and stick with that choice every time. I think that's what most people do anyway. Balancing alternatives is not easy, so usually you end up with one choice being clearly better than the other, or the differences being so small that the choice really doesn't matter that much. Therefore I find the added gameplay value of alternatives quite low compared to the effort it takes to implement.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted August 17, 2016 06:33 PM |
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AnkVaati said:
- Diplomacy between factions
- More random events/quests
care to elaborate?
____________
yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted August 17, 2016 06:40 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
Two things I really disliked were 1) heroes on the battlefield
I agree with this. It pushed Heroes towards rpg games. Besides, balance seems impossible in that case.
Brukernavn said:
and 2) alternative units/upgrades.
I agree with alternative units. As for upgrades, I liked a lot H5 solution, even if it was not perfes. I want alt upgrades  Of course, implementing that in a balanced and useful way is a different story, but I think that can be feasable.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted August 17, 2016 06:52 PM |
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Antalyan, the Heroes Community is generally comprised of people who grew up playing Heroes of Might and Magic; and are literally sick of having the mutilated corpse of a beloved friend shoved down their throats. you are the subset, settling for the pathetic offspring from the emperor of strategy role playing.
cleglaw said:
game is really fun imho(i have some freetime lately, and i spent 6 hours today on h7 because i was like "one more turn before i do X" and i just couldnt stop playing.) BUT! all those bugs are... overwhelming. random twice shootings, random turn skippings, randomly not working abilities, no retaliation creatures retaliating randomly... ruin this great experience.
i dont really mind balance issues too much, but bugs.. bugs are really annoying. i would be really happy if those bugs got cleared  i hope i dont have to wait 1 another year to get a fully-working h7.
mutilated.
Antalyan said:
They might have finally added "random events" many people asked for
not funny.
stop snowing demeaning the Community of Heroes!
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 17, 2016 06:59 PM |
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AnkVaati said:
- Diplomacy between factions
funny, as they have implemented something like this in the h7 code, where factions have a preferred ally and an enemy, but sadly it's not used
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 17, 2016 07:54 PM |
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I liked heroes on the battlefield but it was too chaotic. I also liked the way neutral units and other heroes on the adventure map would attack each other if they strayed too close. Made sense to me.
If things went my way I would definitely not go with alt upgrades because like it was already said, I don't like having to say no to things - to an extent - so i would probably have alt creature choices for a few certain tiers depending on the faction, but not all of them. If you're going to have alt upgrades or choices for everything, why not just make more factions instead?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 17, 2016 08:07 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
If you're going to have alt upgrades or choices for everything, why not just make more factions instead?
That's actually a nice idea. From the onset of the game, you select a certain direction for your empire. You want to play as a goody-two-shoes faction? You get Paladins and Angels. You want to play as an oppressive tyrant? You get Zealots and Devils. Something like that  .
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 17, 2016 08:14 PM |
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Tonwen616
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 17, 2016 08:17 PM |
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@cori14
Well, pretty much all of my sources, and of many others, were stated, but another interesting thing is that on Kwasowa Grota(http://www.acidcave.net/) Avonu, is I think present there as "Alamar", but I'm not 100% sure.
verriker said:
for me actually if you're getting into nitty gritty, the North America parallel is Antagarich with the Columbus voyages out from New Sorpigal they mentioned, Europe Enroth where the settlers first were, Jadame is more like just inspired by South America alone really IMO, but that's a nitpick and not a one to one anyway lol
Well, humanity starting out in Enroth, would make Enroth more of a counterpart of Africa(were humanity, and even specifically, Homo Sapiens).
Enroth also has a population resembling native tribes of Africa, during Medieval times, or at least, the pop culture image of them(if with some unfortunate implications...), with the Cannibal/Head Hunter/Witch Doctor series of enemies in Might & Magic VI:
[url=http://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/mightnmagiciv/sheet/43515/]http://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/mightnmagiciv/sheet/43515/[/url]
Again, you could argue it's just Enroth is a composite "Old Word"(ie Europe, Africa, Asia), but about Antagarich itself, has a ton of other similarities to Europe, that cannot be ignored, and somewhat prevent it from really being a North America analogue.
Like Bracaduun being like the Roman Empire, if as a magocracy and somewhat more oriental, and the Barbarians lead by Tarnum, being Germans, specifically even Vandals. Bracada itself is a bit like the Byzantine Empire etc.
And again find me any other game were Dark Elves live on the equivalent of Americas, before Might & Magic 8, that wasn't Warhammer.
Regnan Pirates in Jadame, also somewhat are a counterpart, in not exact, of Vikings in North America and Greenland. Yes, there are differences, but Vikings were pirates, who also created countries, and the very name "Regna", seems to have a Scandinavian etymology, as well as Hareck, he name of the founder of the Regnan Empire, and it's first king, is a Norse name, more often spelled as Hareg.
You could also make a parallel between Regna and the Caribbean, but the Caribbean region pretty much at the border of North and South Americas, and the Isle of Regna is dozens of times closer to Jadame, than to either Antagarich or Enroth.
verriker said:
the thing about the Sword of Frost and all that it's a bit stupid and can't be defended even if you wanted to, after Greg Fulton left they really quickly needed to pull a cheap means out of their ass to destroy the world fast and already had Armageddon's Blade existing in the plot, so clearly most subtle and intelligent approach possible is obviously to invent some previously unmentioned opposite blade called the Sword of Frost out of nowhere, I mean it's not NWC's finest hour of imagination let's be honest, don't think I'm going to sit here and make up counterpoints for that silly stuff lol
if they really did plagiarise Warhammer there, I think it would have been plotted better (though, at least the aftermath had good storytelling) lol
it doesn't even make much sense, when Armageddon's Blade didn't exist until Lucifer dreamed it up and Khazander created it, I mean yeah you can technically have a prophecy of a sword that doesn't exist yet I guess, but I mean it was still pretty stupid to me from the start lol
Well, again, there still are similarities between the Sword of Frost and Sword of Khaine, up to even pretty specific stuff, like climate change, and it's Vori elf guardians, being distrustful of their own kind.
About the Armageddon's Blade, it was more reforged/recreated by Khazandar, and it's visible in the message that appears when we get it:
"Deep beneath the earth, you find a vault of the Ancients from before the Silence. Inside you find a sealed casket, deeply etched with dire warnings. Ignoring them, you break the seal. Inside, you find Armageddon's Blade."
It's a remnant of the Armageddon's Blade original storyline with the Forge faction and Kastore, but still, it's possible Khazandar rebuilt it, rather than built in the first place, from elements Xeron had found.
I guess the Armageddon's Blade could be had rendered in the past, possibly a Kreegan-Ancient battle, and it's part included, or remade into Sword of Hellfire, Brestplate of Brimstone and Shield of the Damned.
The similarities between the Sword of Khaine, and both Armageddon's Blade and Sweord of Frost, is that it's very possible all aren't exactly magical, or at least on entirely, and are at least in part made of advanced technology, made by a ancient advanced space faring species(by Old Ones with the Sword of Khaine, by Ancients with The Sword of Frost, and by either Kreegan or Ancients with the Sword of Armageddon, ie the presumed original Blade I mean).
It's also very possible in my opinion, that the Sword of Frost storyline, might be a reused version of the Armageddon's Blade original origin and some of it's storyline, or the similarities are because the Sword of Frost was to originally appear in a storyline set after the original Heavenly Forge storyline version of the expansions, and now then there being an ancient prophecy about the Armageddon's Blade and Sword of Frost, would make sense, as in the Heavenly Forge version of storyline, the Armageddon's Blade lied for ages in vault of the Ancients from before the Silence.
But still, the similarities of both swords to the Sword of Khaine still stand, "magical" artifacts, that very possibly are entirely or partially technological, and possibly made by an ancient star faring species...
verriker said:
well spotted yeah, that is known from the same Christian Vanover interview I mentioned, like we said from Nagash one can know Warhammer was a series they were looking at, but like Sleeping Sun mentioned you have to understand the difference between being inspired and basically carbon copying stuff,
I think people will agree it's a struggle to see where Heroes 3 borrowed art from Warhammer in the final product, except maybe like the Lizardmen looking like the Skinks, Heroes 3 in the end was basically staying true to Might and Magic 6 and its Larry Elmore art direction, whereas for Heroes 5 entire creatures and a faction basically have serials filed off from Warhammer, and arguably Warcraft Necropolis thereafter lol
an area where I would criticize NWC for borderline plagiarism is Heroes 4 systems ripping off Magic the Gathering for instance, that was Gus Smedstad taking fandom a bit too far IMO lol, or Legends of Might and Magic being a Counterstrike clone, those were clearly some uninspired or lacking moments lol
Well, I know about Magic the Gathering being a visible inspiration for Heroes IV(despite it not being, or containing a card-game). Acromage was inspired by Magic the Gathering too, so it's not the first time this source of inspiration appeared in the series.
But about designs, let's look again into the Harpy, especially it's Might & Magic VII and Heroes III look, as the Harpies from MM7, and Harpy Hags from H3, have sprites based on the same cgi model:
[url=http://nswgames.tripod.com/heroes3/harpy.jpg]http://nswgames.tripod.com/heroes3/harpy.jpg[/url]
Let's look now on the miniatures of Witch Elves, and how they looked around the time, some years before Heroes III:
[url=http://www.solegends.com/marauder/newimages/Wd120p38MarMM73WitchElves.jpg]http://www.solegends.com/marauder/newimages/Wd120p38MarMM73WitchElves.jpg[/url]
While the Harpy's hairstyle is "smaller", the overall design is very similar, aside from being avian, and further interesting, when we consider the names ranks of Harpies in MM7(Harpy, Harpy Hag, Harpy Queen), and of Witch Elves((Witch Elf, Hag, Death Hag, and Hag Queen)), are near identical. When we think about it, the Heroes III and Might & Magic 7 design of Harpy Hags/Harpies, looks like a combination of the 90s Witch Elf miniatures, and the Harpies from Might & Magic VI:
[url=http://mightandmagic.heroes.net.pl/mm6/stwory/harpy.gif]http://mightandmagic.heroes.net.pl/mm6/stwory/harpy.gif[/url]
Also, to now go for a bit about the Harpies counterparts in terms of mechanics in Heroes V for Dungeon – Blood Maiden/Blood Fury/Blood Sister, the fact they wear little clothing, has sense, and is reflected in gameplay. The Blood Maiden/Blood Fury/Blood Sister, have a fighting style, that's akin to dance(being even described as a dark counterpart to the Sylvan Blade Dancer fighting style), in which a lot of clothing, and especially armor, would be constricting, and slowing down, and is more about avoiding hits. This is reflected with how easily Blood Maidens/Blood Furies/Blood Sisters go down, when hit. Also, their Sylvan and male counterparts, the Blade Dancers/War Dancers/Blade Masters, also wear very little, sometimes more warpaint, than clothing.
[url=http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_dancer_(H5)]http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_dancer_(H5)[/url]
[url=http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_dancer_(H7)]http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_dancer_(H7)[/url]
[url=http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/War_dancer]http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/War_dancer[/url]
[url=http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_master]http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_master[/url]
But if you reread my previous posts, I DID agree and write NWC was visibly more innovative, and creative, even while taking inspiration, than Ubi. Nival, Black Hole Entertainment or Limbic, aside for some exception, but those were from Marzhin, and people like him.
AnkVaati said:
I think what some of the previous posters are missing is that for most of us who criticise the direction the series have taken under Ubi and Team Erwan, this isn't about who plagiarises the most. Did NWC take inspiration from other fantasy (and science fiction) sources? Yes. Did the content feel plagiarised from those? No, not for me at least. They did something original with it - which the many theme based factions like Dungeon/Asylum, Tower/Academy Fortress and even H3 Conflux was a testament to. It didn't seem like a blatant rip of from another series, like H5's Dungeon and H7's Necropolis does. Even the (somewhat lame IMHO) introduction of Jadame's dark elves in MM8 was done in a way not blatantly resembling DnD or anything else in particular, they where just red-skinned elves.
I'm afraid that the choices made by Ubi/Erwin is resulting in the dumbing down of the setting, not just the stories or details like Spider Dragon Godesses but the apparently fact that they seem to be deliberately targeting the same audience (younger teen males) that plays WoW, even to the point of directly plagiarising a creature (koblod) well known for all low-level WoW players.
It feels like they took something valuable, something that was unique and had meaning, depth, and made McFantasy out of it. Or rather, tried to do it but failed doing even that. The race-based factions is part of this generification. Concepts like shared values, customs or religions, a shared theme seems to advanced and intellectual for the audience Ubi/Team Erwan think their aiming for. For reference, I started playing HoMM 3 when I was around 7 years old, and I can't say it ever bothered me the least. The alignment system in H4 was obviously inspired by MtG, but again - the resemblance wasn't that striking. To an extent, I guess MtG was at least a rather logical source of inspiration for M&M as it shares many characteristics: being very much open for interpretation and imagination and all-around being a more mature setting.
I could live with the new world, even though I'd still miss the great characters we met in Heroes 4's main campaigns, but oh well. I enjoyed H5 to an extent. The skill system was the absolutely best of the series, only to be scrapped in favour of something that totally lacks depth in H6/7. I'm happy that some of the factions are getting less race-based. I get that neither the new universe, nor the town or units designs are the main reasons for the big decline of the M&M community - which is apparent on both CH and the Ubi forums as well - but bug-ridden, horribly designed games that took away the strongest features of HoMM's strategic and tactical gameplay, as well the habit of routinely ignoring or even insulting fans, even after asking for feedback from specifically appointed fans a lot less "reactionary" and Erwinosceptic than myself.
But the destruction of the series "spirit" is part of that as well. They seem to think of their audience as stupidos who will pay **sloads of cash for bug-ridden (to the point of virtually unplayable), badly designed, spiritually and intellectually abysmal products if we only get cool battle animations and ladies with unnatural body proportions. Let's be better than that!
Well, about originality, there were some, but they were criticized by fans as insane or to strange, like Asha being fairly creative, including in her Spider aspect, and if you look into it, the majority interesting fictional, or real gods, are quite weird. As is the vampire-lich connection. Again, on one said Ubi is criticized for lack of creativity, and on the other hand, with the vampire-lich connection, Ubi is essentially criticized for creating something new, and "alien" to fans. I do admit Ubi, Erwan Le Breton, and others made mistakes, but at times, this seems like a bit of no-win possible situation. About the vampire, I delve into it deeper again, but as I mentioned before, Ashan seems to actually explore a certain Lich Vampire connection found already before in the old series.
Also, Warhammer, is I think series that works very well with Might & Magic, if you know details of both versions of Warhammer(Fantasy and 40,000), and as I write before and above, NWC also took some inspiration from it.
Mind you, Ubi, and Erwan Le Breton made some true mistakes, like with the skill system of Heroes V, being scrapped for the worse one in Heroes VI and VII, as well as making Towns race based, at least to the extent in Heroes V and state of Heroes VII(bugs, other stuff etc). While taking inspiration from Warhammer, Ashan universe, ignored how interesting the Sci-Fi background elements in Warhammer Fantasy are. But some criticism, is I think unjustified, at least somewhat.
For example about the Kobolds you mentioned, them being rodent-like is NOT Warcraft's idea. It first appeared as one of the depiction of Kobolds Second edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons(ie the 90s one):
[url=http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/kobold.gif]http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/kobold.gif[/url]
[url=http://www.lomion.de/cmm/kobold.php]http://www.lomion.de/cmm/kobold.php[/url]
And Kobolds being rodent like in D&D, dates even further back, as Kobolds themselves were originally drawn as diminutive rat-canine-human hybrid creatures with scales and small horns:
[url=http://s13.photobucket.com/user/botanarchy/media/stuff/kobold.jpg.html]http://s13.photobucket.com/user/botanarchy/media/stuff/kobold.jpg.html[/url]
And D&D kobolds, also tend to live underground.
Only in 2000s, in the third edition, Kobolds became truly reptilian, and later draconic.
Some other videogame depictions, even before Warcraft, also emphasized the mammalian bestial traits of the kobold, like Japanese depictions, or like even the Kobolds from Might & Magic II:
[url=http://www.mm2.acidcave.net/sphinx/kobold.png]http://www.mm2.acidcave.net/sphinx/kobold.png[/url]
When you look at it, the Heroes VII depiction is arguably as similar to the one from Might & Magic II, as to the one from Warcraft.
And the Heroes VII Kobold, differs from both depictions of Kobolds, and most in fact, in some pretty crucial details.
They are allied with dwarves. Most versions o Kobolds, are pretty disliked by the main races, especially the “good” ones like dwarves, and in D&D, they have an outright never ending hate and war with gnomes, relatives of dwarves.
If anything, Ubi and Limbic arguably brought visibly more innovation with their Kobolds, than Blizard and Warcraft did with theirs...
And about Warcraft, it's hilarious on how similar the critique of current Heroes, Nival, Black Hole entertainment, Limbic and Ubi(although Ubi is the most deserving one..), is to that how Warcraft fans criticize World of Warcraft and Blizzard, with WoW fans jokingly, or seriously writing Warcraft doesn't have a shred of originality, or that Blizzard had to rip everything off etc. Interesting, isn't it? XD
Sleeping_Sun said:
Gretchen is not necessarily a reference to WH, because there is a female name [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen]Gretchen/Gretchin[/url].
Yes, I'm aware of it, but the fact Gretchin is a goblin, the things of which Gretchin are the 40,000 counterpart/version of, a Goblin specialist, and uses specifically the spelling Gretchin, not Gretchen, suggests she indeed is a reference to Warhammer. The fact Gretchen/Gretchin was first a female name, might be why the character is female.
verriker said:
well, if I thought the existence of Kastore somehow being a rationale for Erwin to create the Dark Elf Dungeon was a pretty clear example of reaching, I can definitely say, that taking the character of Biara who is a demon succubus who can shapeshift, linking her to the character of Sheltem who is an android who can shapeshift, and telling me that this is convincing proof Team Fabrice researched the universe in depth, is much more weak and tenuous reaching lol
how about this, Corak is an android who is chasing down a villain and is an introspective character, Arantir is a necromancer who is chasing down a villain and is also introspective, therefore, it's logical that Arantir must have been inspired by Corak and Erwin must have played all of the games lol
eh, well, lol
it's no secret though mate, Erwin's gone on record himself several times that he didn't really know the first thing he was doing in terms of the MM lore before Marzhin came in, which is partly why Marzhin was hired, and in talks with Galaad during the fan day, he basically admitted decisions like Dark Elves and Naga were because of his liking for Warcraft and commercial desire to appeal to Warhammer and Warcraft bases which were flavor of the month at the time, not anything more complicated or cerebral to it lol
Well, as I pointed out, there were other possible reasons aside from Kastore, to make Dungeon Dark Elven, like Malekith, Harpies having ties to Witch Elves, and Dungeon always being a dark counterpart to the now Elven Sylvan/Rampart.
But that's aside. And again, between Biara, and Sheltem there is a lot more similarities, than just them being shapeshifters. Both impersonated, and replaced a monarch. Both are at at least somewhat demonic. Yes, Sheltem is an android, but he was presented as a demon(Demon King in MM1, Devil King in MM2), this especially notable, that MM2 is the ONLY time we can really fight Sheltem. This is why on the Xeen map in Heroes VI, Sheltem has an Inferno class of Pyromancer.
Both Alamar, and Shadya, aliases of Sheltem and Biara, are Arabic in origin.
Both, in their alternate forms, have ties to the Dungeon faction, although with Sheltem, it's only possibly. Biara as Shadya, and Sheltem as possibly Alamar, present in the first 3 incarnations of the Dungeon, in Heroes I even as it's leader. The greatest evidence that Alamar would be Sheltem, aside from the rogue Guardian's liking of the name Alamar, is the fact that Sheltem was to return in the original version of Might & Magic X, working with Archibald, like Alamar did before, and Alamar himself being missing from the Heroes IV Asylum. It's unlikelly Alamar died in the Reckoning, as Alamar was described as a "survivor".
And as I mentioned before, there are evidence the creators(Ubi and Nival) of Heroes V, knew a fair share about the Ancient universe, as Nicolai Griffin is pretty clearly based on Nicolas Gryphonheart, with similarities to Arthas, being at least partly a joke at Arthas copying from Nicolas.
The a lot of the heroes original names being from Ancients universe, as well as the game originally supposing to be on Axeoth, as visible with the town descriptions left in game:
[url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/heroes5_cheats_names.shtml]http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/heroes5_cheats_names.shtml[/url]
[url=http://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/2/11291?start=100&p=297275#p297275]http://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/2/11291?start=100&p=297275#p297275[/url]
Again, you could say it's bot Erwan Le Breton's contribution and Merit, but of other members of Team Fabrice, and Nival, who were fans of the NWC Heroes of Might & Magic games.
Although with some of the stuff, Erwan Le Breton might have at least partly joked. Not saying it to just defend him, but because I don't find Ashan and Warcraft Naga to be very similar to each other, side from some very superficial similarities. Warcraft Naga are transformed elves, and essentially the closest thing to classic Dark Elves in Warcraft, even more so still than even arguably the recent Nightborne. The Naga were also transformed by the Old Gods, the Warcraft version of Lovecraft's Great Old Ones and Outer Gods, and serve them. And Naga on Ashan, don't serve or are connected to either Urgash or the Void(tthe closest Lovecraftian things), nor they are connected to elves.
Yes, the sexual dimorphism is similar between both representations of the Naga, which probably was most of the inspiration from Warcraft, as the Naga on Ashan are pretty different aside from that, not being Lovecraftian, which is a important trait of Naga in Wacraft.
Another similarity is both versions of Naga being Japanesque, but the thing is, Warcfraft Naga are a bit Japanesque, rather being generally "oriental", while Ashan Naga are strongly Japanesque.
Not saying Naga in Heroes VI, weren't influenced at all by Warcraft Naga, the general look is very probably derived from Warcraft III but not that much beyond it.
As it was mentioned before, ex-members of Team Fabrice created Endless Legend, which quite a few posters described as close in "spirit" to the old Might & Magic, and Heroes of Might & Magic games, so the creators had pretty obviously some idea of the old universe.
verriker said:
maybe there is a misunderstanding that I wasn't clear, but please realize mate that it makes no difference to anyone's position IMO even if there literally is an obscure real world folklore where zombies literally do ritually consume sacred cat piss and transform into werewolves, because after all Erwin's spider lore is itself entirely borrowed from Sumerian mythology,
Well. Erwan didn't just borrow from Sumerian mythology, but also Egyptian, with Asha being similar to Neith, who has visible similarities to Asha(while Neith is primarily known, and represented today by pop-culture as a goddess of War and Hunt, she far more complex in reality,being considered the embodiment of the primordial cosmic waters that born everything(Mehet-Weret), sometimes even seen as female version of Ptah-Nun), and also has a Spider aspect connected to Fate.
Asha and Urgash themselves, were meant to be a reversed version of Tiamat and Bahamut from D&D. Asha, like Tiamat, has multiple heads, and is the mother of dragons, and the connection to Neith, is due both Neith and Tiamat being considered personifications of the Sea of Nothing/Chaos, that bore everything. The obvious reversal here, is also that Asha is a creature of order. Well, Tiamat also became a creature of order in D&D, bt that's complicated, and she first in D&D to was chaotic, and even is left with the name Queen of Chaos.
Namtaru in Sumerian, and generally Mesopotomian mythology, was actually a male deity, of death and fate(Namtaru means literally destiny or fate in Sumerian), but seems conflated with his mother here, Ereshkigal, of which he was a messenger, and also with the spider aspect of Neith.
For all bad Erwan Le Breton did, I he actually quite nicely re-imagined and conflated those all beliefs and divine creatures.
GenyaArikado said:
I already posted those MM pics before but people here refuse to understand or see that Vampires and Necromancers were wearing spiders underwear before Ashan. And beyond any ripoff, spider association with dead (and necropolis) is logical. They're generally present in tombs, depending of the spider their venom can kill persons and their legs looks like bony fingers.
I also mentioned the egyptian thing. The mesopotamian/egyptian necros is obviously inspired by WH as well but the Neith = Asha connection is undeniable.
Yeah, I suspected I cannot be the first who saw these connections. And in MM7, the necromancers clothing, also seems to design to resemble spider web:
[url=http://mightandmagic.heroes.net.pl/mm7/stwory/stwory_pliki/nekromanta.jpg]http://mightandmagic.heroes.net.pl/mm7/stwory/stwory_pliki/nekromanta.jpg[/url]
EnergyZ said:
That is true. But what is also true is that the spider theme is not overused in Enroth, unlike in Ashan.
Hmm possibly right, but I myself already said I think NWC games, were better at being subtle. But still, the Necromancers, are a fairly religious group on Ashan, and if saw Christians, they use the cross symbolism A LOT. Even most of churches, are built to be seen in a shape cross from above. So I don't think this level of spider symbolism, is unrealistic...
verriker said:
no I didn't ignore or overlook these, I just didn't pass comment on them as I don't see what the relevance is to anything,
the general contention of the fanbase has been that Erwin's lore where liches drink spider venom to turn into vampires is not very suitable for the Heroes franchise for a plethora of reasons drawn out in many threads, I don't think it's changes that contention because liches are susceptible to light magic in MM7, or because of how you may interpret the words "ritual of endless night," I don't see how that really sheds any new light on things or influences anybody's opinion lol
in the lore of Enroth and Axeoth, the vampires get set on fire and turn to ash when in the direct sunlight, the liches don't, this is clear in MM8 and Heroes 4 (even if gameplay took a liberty or two with that), look up captain Enric and the Nightshade Brazier and stuff lol
Well possibly, but liches are protect themselves from the sun, by having their soul jars with them. Sandro himself mentioned liches have problems battling with Clerics of the Sun because of the "Daylight Guard" that the Nightshade Brazier is designed to block once activated, for BOTH vampires and liches. And in what game you PLAYED as a vampire, they instantly killed by sunlight? It's usually represented with continuous damage, if anything.
Momo said:
So many interesting issues...
verriker said:
in NWC to be a vampire you are still "handsome" and have more powers but must drink blood and are susceptible to all sorts of hazards, whereas that to become a lich you gain massive powers but must sacrifice your earthly flesh and bone forever, and look like death, those are two different options to become the undead, and two different subcultures of undead which is more diverse and interesting,
That is one subject in which I think a bit of objectivity may be called for, despite being in a greater context (lore and settings) that has a lot to do with tastes.
You see, verriker here is correct: in NWC -but also, in most modern fantasy- becoming a lich or a vampire means taking two different paths to undeath. Vampires avoid death because they want to retain their physical existence (and thus, ability to feel and experience sensations and emotions) and has such have many physical weaknesses but are still somewhat connected to their former humanity; Liches become immortal because they seek to trascend death and keep living to keep researchin on higher matters, forbidden knowledge, etc and in doing so they become a very persistent exsitance but keep very little of their humanity if anything.
This is what makes these two different and in a way opposite form of undead.
It is objective that making lich and vampire the same creature (or rather, two phases of the same creature) is meant to remove the uniqueness and diversity from both to present a more simplified and understandable lore. Now here one may step in and says "screw uniqueness, I like simplicity", but this is nonetheless what they strived to obtain: less diversity, more accessibility (or something).
I think many could agree it was a misstep and even if you don't, you're praising the least creative and fertile of decisions on this subject: know that.
Well again, even it's a misstep, it isn't without a base in stuff created by NWC, as I pointed before.
And about liches "evolving" into vampire, a vampire, can be seen as a more perfect form of undead, in way preserving the body and mind, so it could be seen as because of that the higher “evolutionary” form of undeath. Again, YMMV. Curiously though in the old universe, Aislinn seems to have went from a Vampire in Heroes III to a lich in Heroes IV. Of course, it's possible that Aislinn just wears a skull mask, and cloak, which may have sense with seemingly becoming (more?) insane after the Reckoning, or that the Lich Aislinn is the Axeoth counterpart of the Enrothian vampire known as Aislinn.
GenyaArikado said:
I wonder if Fahada/Khalida story would have been H6 Academy campaign (had we gotten Academy ofc). I mean, it features Bluebeak.
It would be very interesting, if it were so, but it actually makes me a bit sad we haven't got to see it if you're right….
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted August 17, 2016 08:24 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
AoW 3 again.
but i don' wanna go to war, i wanna go on an adventure!
"i really like the hero-centric adventure quest aspect of heroes 2 through tribes of the east, that i also feel is missing from age of wonders adventure map objects. heroes feels a bit more like an rpg, and aow feels a bit more like a strategy game"
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=38570&PID=1351382#focus
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 17, 2016 08:38 PM |
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I mean, what Maurice said.
I know that you want to start with H2, individual town and creature tress, and combine this with the the odd alternative, be it an upgrade or a basic unit, and I agree, that this is a good point to start over.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted August 17, 2016 08:42 PM |
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yogi said:
not funny.
stop snowing demeaning the Community of Heroes!
Why so angry lately, yogi?
The_Green_Drag said:
If you're going to have alt upgrades or choices for everything, why not just make more factions instead?
Exactly! I would rather have two additional factions than alternative upgrades to all the existing ones.
JollyJoker said:
AoW 3 again.
It's funny, because a lot of things I didn't like in Heroes, I have grown to like in Aow. For people who don't know the game, I describe it as a mix of Heroes 4 and Civ. Neither of which I am particularly fond of, but the combination I like. I haven't come around to playing III though. So much to do, yet so little time...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 17, 2016 08:57 PM |
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted August 17, 2016 10:02 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
AoW 3 is awesome.
+1
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 17, 2016 10:42 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
The_Green_Drag said:
If you're going to have alt upgrades or choices for everything, why not just make more factions instead?
Exactly! I would rather have two additional factions than alternative upgrades to all the existing ones.
More expensive.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 17, 2016 10:43 PM |
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 17, 2016 11:38 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 23:39, 17 Aug 2016.
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Stevie said:
It's not just a better game, AoW 3 blows Heroes 7 completely out of the water.
You don't say  http://aow.triumph.net/aow3-sales-milestone-the-new-game-and-gdc/
And correct me if I'm wrong but AoW III had no 'big' companies to handle marketing for them. They've based their 'marketing' mostly on Youtube videos, direct communictation with the fansbase and the trust for their vision and reputation of the franchise...
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
