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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted June 27, 2018 11:34 PM |
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ANd even with H3 Hota + HD mod you have sim turns.
I honestly don't want to see new Heroes game made by Ubi. H5:TotE had a lot of potential, and if they just used it as base for future games. But instead, we got the snow that we got...
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2018 12:03 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:05, 28 Jun 2018.
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This thing about Heroes 5 or Heroes 3 or whichever Heroes being the base that should be built upon is just a myth. Things don't work like that. Modders build upon a game, developers have to bring something new and different to the table. I wouldn't want to play a Heroes 5 again, I'd rather play something that challenges convention with novelty and a different take that no other title in the series presented before. Otherwise why have a "new" game if it's the same old same old?
Just take a look at Heroes 7, heralded as the best of everything Heroes had to offer and it turned out like this stitched Frankenstein monster. It's not the direction M&M should take ever again. At least Heroes 6 tried, and it failed for the most part, but it tried. Heroes 7 didn't even try, a game for the sake of it, without any vision or ambition to it.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 28, 2018 12:23 AM |
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for my share the future of that series is personally the same as many other strategy games of the 90s which is alas to remain in the dustbin until the end of days (I will ignore all games created by erwin and that Chinese sweatshop mobile games as they had a budget of Tencent and are apocryphal) cheers lol
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 28, 2018 02:59 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 03:03, 28 Jun 2018.
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Stevie said:
why have a "new" game if it's the same old same old?
Well, H2 was the new game succeeding H1, and H3 was the new game succeeding H2. Then H5 was the new game that at least had the gameplay succeeding H3. So....
I don't mind new, but it needs to be coherent with past titles.
About H7, yes it was marketed as a best-of but it really wasn't. While a best-of (and yes I mean objectively -aka take the most popular features, not the ones a random designer think it is (and most importantly needs to understand those features)- wouldn't have made the series move forward, it would have just made a massive up to date to recent hardwares and quality of life improvements. So basically the same but better, where to complain?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 28, 2018 06:44 AM |
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Stevie said:
This thing about Heroes 5 or Heroes 3 or whichever Heroes being the base that should be built upon is just a myth.
Not really. There obviously needs to be some base to avoid another H6. And besides, as heroes fans we should be asking for evolution on what we like, instead of a different game. Other than H4 which was kind of a special case, the old games kept evolving and expanding. There still are some who will prefer H2 to H3 but overall, H3 was an evolution over H2 just like H2 was an evolution over H1. From there on, there are plenty of features that can be improved or added but if you know your stuff, you can implement them accordingly.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2018 09:13 AM |
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I think, I disagree, Elvin, but I don't want to discuss that yet again.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2018 05:52 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:54, 28 Jun 2018.
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Elvin said:
Not really. There obviously needs to be some base to avoid another H6.
What "base"? What's the base that a Heroes game must have and that Heroes 6 didn't? Because if it's anything more than the concept itself of heroes leading their armies to battle, exploring the world and building their towns (all of which Heroes 6 had), then you're doing nothing more than to create a box of rules restricting design space. Developers should always be free to think outside that box.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 28, 2018 06:07 PM |
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I suppose Elvin means - and this is what I believe too - that if you don't have an obvious genius idea out of the box you mention, which is enough inspired to drag the fans out of their thinking box TOO, then stick to improving the base which created that mass of fans, which means H2 and H3, build improved clones as there is a lot of room for doing so. Also, starting with H4, even if there were some inspiring ideas (H4 has gorgeous graphics and a much better editor), the technical polishing lacked. In short, If you are not truly inspired, don't be arrogant and change for the sake of changing.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 28, 2018 08:31 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:35, 28 Jun 2018.
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About sums it up. I am not against changes but the game should be similar enough to what you liked, except better, improved. I do not want an H3 or H5 clone but something that surpasses them by covering their flaws, improving what can be improved and adding where something is lacking.
For instance, I would not want the focus from strategy and tactics to shift to RPG decisions. I would not want the hero focus to be on their faction but instead promote diversity. I would not want magic to be self-taught(save special exceptions) because hunting for spells and making the best out of what you get increases replayability. I would not want creature growth to be daily because I like thinking it terms of weekly budget.
Things I would welcome are improvements or changes on siege combat, the battlefield, adventure map transformation/exploration, intelligence gathering, further uses for resources, unit-spell-battlefield combos, spellcasting modes etc etc.
For me, unless the combat, skill/magic system and adventure map or town management is satisfactory, the game cannot stand, regardless of how many brilliant changes it has.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2018 08:53 AM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 29, 2018 09:08 AM |
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Those are all features that have persisted for some time. If there is something that I liked in H1, it is the possibility to separate AI strength from resource handicap. But then, H3 AI was too poor to even compete with a handicapped human player. Meanwhile, AoW shadow magic AI always kept me on my toes on maximum difficulty.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2018 10:06 AM |
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Sorry, I meant the base IS H1 then. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 29, 2018 10:25 AM |
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Sure, H2 and H3 used H1 as base. But as they were much more accomplished and progressively opened additional perspectives, there is no point, in my opinion, to keep looking at H1 when building further sequels. It is already safe inside H2 and H3.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2018 10:40 AM |
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No, because H2 changes (not only adds) features of H1 (the meaning of the primary skill Knowledge, most of all), while H3 changes features of H1 as well that were still part of H2 (for example the way how additional buildings change the amount of produced creatures), while axing the "Captain" feature from town defense, and more importantly the whole economy structure.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 29, 2018 11:19 AM |
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Of course it is safe inside H2 and H3, these games were and still are universally loved by most of the fanbase. The changes and additions they brought were healthy, because they were consistent in the series continuity, unlike H4 and H6 (and H7, despite the paper).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 29, 2018 12:07 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
No,
What no? I am speaking in terms of broad approval -> solid fan base, that's the only criteria to be used, not everyone's subjective opinion. Who is playing H1 nowadays?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2018 12:22 PM |
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We already had this discussion, and it doesn't lead to anything. H3 has been done. To make a better game than that you will have to make a game that is still "HoMM", but has something that H3 hasn't which makes the game more interesting than H3 is with every mod imaginable.
If that was easy, we already had it.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 29, 2018 12:30 PM |
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And I don't disagree with that, see my first post. I only say: if you don't know how to do a better game or/and don't have the money for, stay and improvise within the successful base, make expansions, mods, improve features, fix broken ones, whatever which keeps the solid fan base safe and even bring some new.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2018 12:54 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:59, 29 Jun 2018.
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Heroes 3 is past its time anyway, I wouldn't bring it up to make a design point for future games out of it. You take a look at how outdated and linear combat is in Heroes 3 and then compare it to Age of Wonders 3 for example, the difference is like night and day. And if you'd want to bring a Heroes game at that level, you'd have to change so many features that it would warrant another game. Of course, no one says that combat should follow that of Age of Wonders 3, but my point is that in Heroes it has stayed almost the same for decades, barring some minor differences. Heroes 5 was the first to innovate with initiative and ATB and that was it, Heroes 6 and 7 reverted back to the "best of" outdated bull****. I can't remember the last time I enjoyed combat in a Heroes game, certainly not in the latest titles (but I guess Elvin's duel map counts).
And that's just one aspect that could be elevated to the next level. When you think there's also exploration, town management, quests, diplomacy, skills, magic and so on, so many things that could take a different turn for the better if only people could see past what's been done before and stopped hailing one particular game as the holy grail of the series. It's so frustrating to see the series not moving forward for all these years, not just because of Ubisoft's reticence to invest in it, but also because of a lack of vision from both the developers and the community.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 29, 2018 01:40 PM |
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I generally agree with Stevie here in that I expect a different "system" with each Heroes iteration. I've never wanted an H3 remake with updated graphics. And I was quite taken with H4 with heroes on the battlefield just because it was a different thing, yet used the similar combat mechanics of prior games. Maybe some flies in the ointment but, hey, it was a novel twist and that's what's important.
Had New World continued on I believe they would've continued to vary the system with "new" regardless of whether it was a vast improvement on H3. And I would've enjoyed that. We need new permutations on the theme; this isn't a classic game like Chess where the system remains the same for centuries because it's "fine the way it is".
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
