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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 20, 2014 02:03 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
well if skills are like those in H6, then there's no worry imo.
Problem is not about skills but about how the whole system is implemented. As you mention further in your post, how are the probabilities of getting this skill or that perk altered if the hero chose this skill or that perk at that point of the leveling-up ? And of course considering whether he is a might or a magic hero.
This is advanced work for programmers, as both systems, as much the ones in H3 and H5 had some flaws despite their incredible addictive and fun systems.
Yes I am glad that game developers from Limbic finally decided -thanks to the good communication from the Ubi-Nox & Kimmundi- to implement random skills, but I sure do hope they realize that this feature will ask considerable amount of work and thinking. I want to believe that they will do their very best to come up with a great system, and not that they will just throw pure randomness without any connection whatsoever as it is not what we asked for.
This is why I've linked some analysis from some members at page 347 of that thread, I hope Ubi-Nox took good notice of it and that game developers will consider it while implementing RS. I hope they realize this is no easy task.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2014 02:13 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
What we need is meaningful skills (it isn't necessary to have them all equally important). H6 system where a skill would give you like +3 to morale, when morale could go up to 100 made me cry
Random system should give you two skills and two perks to choose from (like H5), the key is not reapeating H5 mistake (randomness values being too crazy).
Ye i agree - i hope morale maximum will be like 5 or something simmilar...maybe up to 10. That or skill that gives +30 morale boost.
And also - why are we getting leadership(?) and destiny again? What's wrong whith simply calling them luck and morale? .... oh i get it! to confuse new people that may actualy be interasted in game! 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 20, 2014 02:59 PM |
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10 is a good number, imo. What's interesting is that each stat boost feel like something important, but at the same time not getting (that) stat boost from everywhere.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2014 05:50 PM |
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Galaad said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
well if skills are like those in H6, then there's no worry imo.
Problem is not about skills but about how the whole system is implemented.
I am quite sure developers know how to do random skill system, and how to make some skills have higher chance of showing up. It's their job afterall. And the fact that we even have hero classes suggests that this is so. They did not say anything about discarding classes. If their intent would be to just make things completly random, then classes dosen't make sense, since there's no diference.
My point was about how skill "tree" is made. In H6 there were no prerequisits for skills, other than level. You didn't need to have for eg. "Attack" in order to get "Heroic assault".
In H5 there was much diferent. There were "skills" and there were "abilities". You always needed apropriate skill in order to get abilities of that skill's "tree". Which was fine. But then there were "secret" abilities, for wich you needed certain abilities beforehand. Example for Knight hero: in order to get "Retribution", you first need ability called "Battle frenzy" as weel as "Expert trainer". Some abilities were even harder to get, since they required more than 2 prerequisites. Good example of this is ultimate ability, which required several "secret" abilities first.
Sure, you can tweek system so that, if you possess some prerequisite abilities, there will be a higher chance to get the rest. But it still is a chance that you wont get it, and that's what ranomness is all about. How high is that chance is also a diferent question. Because if those skills/abilities are almost guaranteed, then it's not much of a strech to have skills non-random. If it's too low, then you will never even bother with ultimate skill, coz probability to get it is too low. In H5 for most part i didn't bother with ultimates. Even if probability to get them was quite high. Reason is it wasn't worth it. You have to give up certain great abilities in order to get requierments for ultimate, which wasn't even that OP to be worth it. And there is always chance that you get screwed by the randomness.
To sum it up: Yes! I belive H5 would actualy be better if skills were not random. While H6 would be much better with random skills. Ubi should "swich" systems there.
Now don't missunderstand me - I like randome skills. But there should be no skill requierments as there were in H5.
You can have "skill tree" OR you can have "random skills". Not both. If you mix both you always get a mess.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 20, 2014 06:11 PM |
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Which is exactly why after H5 there has been a demand of random skill + pickable abilities from many fans.
However, I disagree that ultimates were not worth it in H5, for Sylvan ie it was incredibly powerful, "All Ranger's troops will receive a 40% chance to inflict a critical hit upon that creature (favorite enemies, up to 4 of them), giving double damage to it", and you can Nature's luck.
What we do know about MMH7 skill system is that it will be a skillwheel similar to H5 (not a skilltree as in H6). I guess this could be a reason why it was first intended of being non-random. Hence my concern about how developers will implement RS, I hope we will get more news about this at some point. I really hope they will have an in-depth look into it, it will ask them lots of (extra) work if they want to make it great.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 20, 2014 06:14 PM |
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I actually wonder if this time around with the skill trees I think they are going to go with will certain abilities require higher levels of skill prior to acquiring them. Since I am fairly confident there will be no cross skill abilities, I wonder if they will at least limit it this way, so that some are only achievable from a certain skill level. This would actually work better if they really give up cross skill abilities.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2014 06:28 PM |
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Galaad said:
Which is exactly why after H5 there has been a demand of random skill + pickable abilities from many fans.
However, I disagree that ultimates were not worth it in H5, for Sylvan ie it was incredibly powerful, "All Ranger's troops will receive a 40% chance to inflict a critical hit upon that creature (favorite enemies, up to 4 of them), giving double damage to it", and you can Nature's luck.
What we do know about MMH7 skill system is that it will be a skillwheel similar to H5 (not a skilltree as in H6). I guess this could be a reason why it was first intended of being non-random. Hence my concern about how developers will implement RS, I hope we will get more news about this at some point. I really hope they will have an in-depth look into it, it will ask them lots of (extra) work if they want to make it great.
It is not that ultimates weren't powerful, they were, some of them were almost broken(like instant Gating, or starting with 500 rage at the beginning of combat, 100% for strikes to be unlucky against Fortress etc.), but you had to skip a ton of useful skills and perks and pick some quite bad or situational skills to be able to pick ultimates(and all of that if you are VERY lucky), that most of the time they weren't worth it and you could just make some super awesome build that will do better work anyway while being easier to execute.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2014 06:42 PM |
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Galaad said:
I disagree that ultimates were not worth it in H5, for Sylvan ie it was incredibly powerful, "All Ranger's troops will receive a 40% chance to inflict a critical hit upon that creature (favorite enemies, up to 4 of them), giving double damage to it", and you can Nature's luck.
Ummm ... I think we have a bit of missunderstanding here. I wasn't talking about Ultimate Avenger. Let me explain what i was trying to say... Nature's luck IS the ultimate ability. And it is Nature's luck That is the one that is immpossible to get and what i was talking about. Sure it's not "Ultimate Ability" as official, but ... what do you call those then? Each hero has one, and it dosen't require Ultimate skill to get it, but it has ton of prerequisites.
Yes you have Ultimate skills too (ultimate Avenger for Sylvan) - which requires Pedant of Mastery, if i recall, but that's not what I was about. I'm quite ok with those.
And i agree: Random skills + pick your abilities would be best for H5.
Edit: While I was typing RMZ above me explains, what I was talking about ....
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 20, 2014 06:57 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Ummm ... I think we have a bit of missunderstanding here.
Yeah we often do..
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Damian777
Hired Hero
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posted December 20, 2014 11:45 PM |
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In my point of view style of creatures in HOMMVI was better. I don't like anime (near) like in heroes V.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted December 21, 2014 11:48 AM |
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Damian777 said:
In my point of view style of creatures in HOMMVI was better. I don't like anime (near) like in heroes V.
Except for Angels maybe nothing had anything to do with Anime, it was American Cartoon style like Warcraft for example.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 21, 2014 12:19 PM |
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Zeki said:
Damian777 said:
In my point of view style of creatures in HOMMVI was better. I don't like anime (near) like in heroes V.
Except for Angels maybe nothing had anything to do with Anime, it was American Cartoon style like Warcraft for example.
I really have no clue where this anime crap comes from... 
A lot of people are using it, and it simply isn't true. It seems people have a misconception that every cratoonish style is anime or anime-like.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Darkem
Known Hero
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posted December 21, 2014 12:38 PM |
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Perhaps it's because of the graphic style of most of the Korean/Asian games. Oversized weapons and sparkly characters? People call this style "anime" because it's the simplest and quickest association with other "popular" products like tv shows and comics from Asia.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2014 01:11 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 13:12, 21 Dec 2014.
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RMZ1989 said:
Zeki said:
Damian777 said:
In my point of view style of creatures in HOMMVI was better. I don't like anime (near) like in heroes V.
Except for Angels maybe nothing had anything to do with Anime, it was American Cartoon style like Warcraft for example.
I really have no clue where this anime crap comes from...
A lot of people are using it, and it simply isn't true. It seems people have a misconception that every cratoonish style is anime or anime-like.
come on... he is right, i hate this anime-style look on heroes too.
and not just because oversized armors, weapons, also because of undetailed portraits, faces, weird forked hairs... its anime-ish.
and i agree with him on other thing too, i only play h6 and h3 because of this "disgusting(to me)" art style.
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
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posted December 21, 2014 03:27 PM |
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+1 , mate
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To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 21, 2014 04:11 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:15, 21 Dec 2014.
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So it was Warcraft, now it's anime. What's next, lego? (no Avonu, you don't need to link those)
And about the skills system, here's what I want:
1. Different skillwheels for each hero class;
2. Racial skill for each faction (same faction classes share this), with more perk options for tactical choices (unlike Heroes 5);
3. Many skills with many perks, something like 15+ total skills with each skill having 10+ perks to choose from;
4. Interskill perks, each skill should have at least one or two of them, also some connected to the racial skill/perks;
5. Flexible random chance.
Basically, a very deep and intersected system. Not for the lighthearted.  And it would also work if randomness is off, so it's just win! The more paths to take, the more tactical and interesting the system is. But for that we need good and relevant skills and perks. So Ubi please... 
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 21, 2014 04:28 PM |
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Having 10 perks per skill will ruin the game. It should be a limited quantity, cause as long as we have 1 skill point/perk point per level, we are limited to around ~15-20 potential levelups for a game of average length, both on multi and in SP. Thus, there should be a limit to how many perks a skill can have. Too many choices will prove practically impossible to counterstrat against which will IMHO limit the MP side of the game. Also, just think of sheer balance...
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2014 04:31 PM |
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All the time I keep reading about "perks", and im a bit confused. Are they official? And also, can someone explain them to me? How are they diferent from abilities we got in H5?
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted December 21, 2014 04:40 PM |
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They are very different.
Perks are name for abilities and used by people, who don't remember, how "abilities" were named in HoMM5.
So: skills + perks = skills + abilities
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 21, 2014 05:13 PM |
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TDL said:
Having 10 perks per skill will ruin the game. It should be a limited quantity, cause as long as we have 1 skill point/perk point per level, we are limited to around ~15-20 potential levelups for a game of average length, both on multi and in SP. Thus, there should be a limit to how many perks a skill can have. Too many choices will prove practically impossible to counterstrat against which will IMHO limit the MP side of the game. Also, just think of sheer balance...
Many skills in Heroes 5 had ~10 perks, not really game breaking. There're also alternative learning ways, like witch's hut and academies. And I don't think anyone would play a Heroes game to counterstrat the adversary at a skill build level. Also you're not doing the game a favor if you think in terms of average length, for big and small games that' irrelevant.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
