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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 14, 2015 08:06 PM |
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 14, 2015 08:10 PM |
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Stevie said:
To which I replied that I was not talking about the examples per se, I was just trying to prove his double standards where in one place he chooses to express himself while in another he says that to do so is in vain, motivating it's a case of "my way or the highway".
But aren't youdoing the samething? When you are not so emotionally engaged and something in game is as you would like it to be, you imply that being overly emotional is wrong. However, when devs do something wrong in your opinion, then being mild is wrong and ranting is higly desirable. Talk about double standards.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 14, 2015 08:21 PM |
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If judging one goal attainable and another unattainable makes a man a hypocrite, then there isn't a human alive or dead who can claim to be not a hypocrite.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 14, 2015 08:33 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Pardon me, but overdecorative visuals are not a result of main conception
I am not quite sure I agree. If you notice, over-decorative visuals are not exclusive to Necropolis. They are kind of a trademark to Ashan. I don’t think I need to develop most on this, just take a look back to Haven’s heroes designs, or even “pretty” Gargoyles (even if I actually love the latter). My point was going a bit further than this. When I say visuals depends on the conception, I really mean it from its core. Let me try to explain. Someone will have a vision, in that case -and anyone from Limbic is welcome to correct me- Erwan le Breton. He created Ashan, and as the creative director, it could make sense that the way Ashan should look depends on him, at least to some extent. Some people like it, and they are in their perfect right to do so. Some people actually might be right that this artistic direction is aiming to sell and therefore can be considered a safe bet if they correlate to other successful brands designs. This is where I disagree. When someone creates something, shouldn’t the visuals be the more faithful to original conception? So there comes the real question, is the Spider-cult designed in order to sell or to serve creativity? My opinion would tend to the former, but I might be wrong, is why I ask some to explain (not justify as someone else here wrongly implied) their liking about it. So yes, I do think visuals depends on the conception. Then, bad visuals can come out of a good conception, is why early works often are being dismissed, reworked, in an attempt to match one’s imagination (compare some betas with their finished products).
Dave_Jame said:
I nominate Galaad for a PENALTY for this post. Once again he opened a topic that has been cloased several time, and several times redirected to dedicated topics. He has done so for the sole purpose of provoking other members. This behavior is strongly similar to that of some unnamed members of this forum, which have been penalized for it.
Especially since the topic is based only on his personal taste and he will never be willing to accept any other opinion.
He is a troll and as such he should be treated.
Since when is asking for people having a different opinion to express themselves in a constructive way trolling? Since when the topic regarding Necropolis has been closed? Since when can't we debate on a forum? Since when any kind of discussion should become forbidden since it could impact no further the game (if at all)? Besides, isn't engaging into constructive discussion a sign of good will from me to eventually reevaluate my position? With all due respect, you are being totally out of range here. Also, I invite you to read my post in the Necropolis thread on the matter, I don't believe my position is only built upon my personal taste. I suggest you to slow down with such accusations, because if something can make derail a civilized discussion, it certainly is your post here. Now, I am willing to accept I've been quite emotional on the topic, and please accept my sincerest apology if I've offended you (or anyone else), but believe me, the post you're referring to was not an attempt of trolling, but rather of hearing opinions that differs mine. With my regards, Galaad.
A8T said:
Challenge accepted.
I thank you for your answer.
Visually speaking they are kind of scrapping pre-HVI Necropolis. Even if the units did remain the same for the most, they have a totally different feel. About suing, they did have trouble with GW, and Blizzard probably don’t see it in their interest to sue, as someone else explained somewhere else.
I disagree that the Spider-cult is somehow original, but hey, I am not against clichés per se, but if you take a look at most mainstream games, Ashan is not inventing anything here. Being original as you rightly say is not necessarily good, but when something works (like blah! Vampires and Skeletal Lich) I tend to think is not wise to change it. Is like the skill system in Heroes VI, Heroes III and V delivered arguably the best systems, even with all the flaws, so I would have better tried to improve the flaws instead of trying something completely different. I am sure you see the parallel here.
All kinds of fanatics are scary, not only the religious ones. And I disagree moderated Necromancers “between life and death” are that scary. Having different phases can be indeed interesting, is why some people wish for a change already, maybe the Void, this could heat things up. Is my firm conviction it would be more interesting and evocative than simply toning down the Spider theme.
About Heroes IV, well, that game had a lot of qualities, but Necroferno arguably wasn’t one of them. Finally, I’ve read countless comments complaining the similarities between Heroes V and Warhammer.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2015 08:37 PM |
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Stevie said:
As a potential buyer I think I have the right to express my opinion in regards to what it is they want to sell me.
I agree. This is what this forum is for. And I would even expand on this, as not only potential buyers, but all who are interasted in this franchise, as well as those that have already purchased it, are entitled to their opinions, and thus providing positive or negative feedback to developers. This is what developers use, so next time, they know what blunders they made, and will try to correct them, so that in turn, they will end up getting more sales.
Feedback is valuable. But, we as customers are still not entitled to any changes, as it is ultimatly not our call to make. Your opinion has been heard. As well as opinions of other people who do not like this necropolis. They had said it. And they will consider it. And that is all that it can be achived. If you want any more than that, you are making a demand.
Ubi / Limbic is making this game. And they have the right to make it however they wish. If their vision is spider cult, and think this is a good idea, then, I say, go ahead.
We, the buyers, are not making the game. We just have the option to purchase it, if we like it. You don't like it, you don't buy it, it's simple as that. Idk, how you do it, but this is usualy the moto I go by. If one faction's art design is reason enough for you to not buy the game, then don't buy the freaking game. It's not mandatory. And if you wanna buy it for having a collection, then do it like me, and wait till Steam disscount kicks in.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 14, 2015 08:40 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 20:42, 14 Feb 2015.
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
We, the buyers, are not making the game. We just have the option to purchase it, if we like it. You don't like it, you don't buy it, it's simple as that.
No it's not. I will most likely purchase Heroes VII because I think it will have a lot of qualities, my dislike regarding one faction is not enough of a reason for me to boycott the entire product.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2015 08:55 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:49, 14 Feb 2015.
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Pawek_13 said:
But aren't youdoing the samething? When you are not so emotionally engaged and something in game is as you would like it to be, you imply that being overly emotional is wrong. However, when devs do something wrong in your opinion, then being mild is wrong and ranting is higly desirable. Talk about double standards.
I never did that. If anything I am very much aware that Necro and Sylvan/Dungeon votes are a matter of opinion, and I'm confronting people on that basis. It's not a problem of right or wrong, it's a problem of tastes. If I can find some common ground with someone, then maybe I can get them on my side. But I don't see suppressing your opinion to be the same, that is not a matter of taste, that is the worse thing to do. So I'm not about to indulge anything reasoned from such a standpoint.
And in regards to the example of Dungeon, it was about me pointing out that Galaad was spamming the vote page with Medusa heads. I wasn't complaining about his opinion, nor did I ever belittle anyone else's compared to mine.
War-overlord said:
If judging one goal attainable and another unattainable makes a man a hypocrite, then there isn't a human alive or dead who can claim to be not a hypocrite.
Except you don't know what is attainable or not. Nor does that bear any relevance on having a right to express dissatisfaction to begin with. And if anything, Heroes 7 itself as well as the insiders, the shadow council, Marzhin's work to bring back old stuff as cameos and now even Darkstorm, proved that things can change, so there's legitimate reason for me to hope for that and pursue it.
Galaad said:
No it's not. I will most likely purchase Heroes VII because I think it will have a lot of qualities, my dislike regarding one faction is not enough of a reason for me to boycott the entire product.
I subscribe to this. I already mentioned I consider Heroes 7 to be a victory, even though I'm highly disappointed with Spiderpolis.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 14, 2015 09:01 PM |
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Stevie said:
And in regards to the example of Dungeon, it was about me pointing out that Galaad was spamming the vote page with Medusa heads.
It really seems that annoyed you, I only did it once. And other people where spamming penises if you might recall, Medusas were better no?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2015 09:06 PM |
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Yes, but don't fret, I just said that to make it clear that I was condemning spam rather than having double standards in regards to opinions. I didn't mean to bring it up to make you feel uncomfortable, to me that's all in the past now.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 14, 2015 10:13 PM |
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@Galaad - and we have +1 more man who didn't bother to carefully read what I said  I'm gonna start a collection now 
Let me rephrase it: Spider cult theme per se doesn't imply overdecorative design. That's my message. You're right that a conception defines how things should look like, but such details as "how many decorations we will have" does not depend on a conception. Its creative director's, artists' or marketing guys' idea. Why? I'll be damned if I know for sure mate. But hey, compare H6 Haven and H7 Haven. We have a huge progress on this matter.
P.S.: a piece of advice. Your question "is the Spider-cult designed in order to sell or to serve creativity" has more than 2 answers creativity and selling may go hand in hand. Look at the Dark souls.
 Please, people, can we stop it? Really, don't we have any other things to discuss than to reignite the old flames? It's a waste of time guys. Ah, nevermind. At least let's be civil towards each other! 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 14, 2015 10:21 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:22, 14 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
@Galaad - and we have +1 more man who didn't bother to carefully read what I said I'm gonna start a collection now
I did carefully read what you said, maybe if you have to start a collection with people misinterpreting you you might as well need to reconsider your way of expressing yourself. 
I understood and agreed that "Spider-cult theme per se doesn't imply overdecorative design." 
I also agree HVII Haven looks way better than its HVI counterpart. Now, maybe I too need to work on being clearer:
I didn't mean to imply creativity and marketing cannot go hand in hand, I implied that I favor creativity to be worked on independently of marketing. 
Quote:
Please, people, can we stop it? Really, don't we have any other things to discuss than to reignite the old flames? It's a waste of time guys. Ah, nevermind. At least let's be civil towards each other!
Fair enough.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 14, 2015 10:45 PM |
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Galaad said:
I did carefully read what you said, maybe if you have to start a collection with people misinterpreting you you might as well need to reconsider your way of expressing yourself.
I didn't mean to imply creativity and marketing cannot go hand in hand, I implied that I favor creativity to be worked on independently of marketing.
What's better than 1 collection? Right, mooore collections
Oh, here you're asking something nearly impossible ^^
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 14, 2015 10:58 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Oh, here you're asking something nearly impossible ^^
You have to try the impossible to achieve the possible.
Hermann Hesse
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2015 11:25 PM |
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Galaad said:
No it's not. I will most likely purchase Heroes VII because I think it will have a lot of qualities, my dislike regarding one faction is not enough of a reason for me to boycott the entire product.
Well ofcourse. This is what I was actualy getting at. And I more or less feel the same way. This is true for most of the games I buy. Unless it's Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, no game is perfect.
I was refering to game as a whole with this statement. I will for eg. not buy Call of Duty ... coz I don't like that.
However if someone actualy would decide to buy or not buy the game based on how one unit looks, hey, more power to him.
End of day, I don't know if it's the truth or not, but I personaly belive, the main reason for Necro being spider cult, is simple. Erwan like this idea. He thinks it's apealing and new way of looking at classical faction. And who am I, to question the mind of that master Wizard? What I'm trying to say is: I don't agree with him, but it's his work and his "invention". Also the new lore is omnipresent in all of their titles, not just Heroes, so ther's spider cult in M&M, and this is why it's in Heroes also.
But I also agree it's time for another theme of conversation ... it's been last 200 pages of this... so witouth firther ado, if you do not like Necro, what is the main thing everyone is actualy looking forward to so far in HoMM 7?
Personaly for me it's dynamic terrain, but only if it will work as I think it'll work, and not be just scripted and limited to certain maps/campaing. I always liked the idea of modifying terrain, but so far it was only present in battles, where you would add objects, or (in H3) remove them (I realy miss that spell).
Breaking a bidge or changing river flow, or even shut the underground passage, to get tactical advantage sounds awsome. I am a bit vorried how AI will use this feature tho . It would be also a shame to be only usefull in multiplayer battles. I myself play mostly LAN, this is true, but this includes co-op versus several hardest AI players, and if AI, can't use this feature, it would suck, so imo it's a thing to realy watch for, as it can make or brake a game more than visualy.
If it would work properly however, I belive, it could be huge. In conjunction with forts, and abilitiy to destroy or rebuild them, maps can change during gameplay drasticaly. It would also be interasting what map-editors would be able to do with this thing. If map-editor and campaign editor is good, then it can make awsome maps
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 14, 2015 11:49 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:55, 14 Feb 2015.
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Hey, you ask for the topic to change yet you bring out an argument just right on the topic.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
What I'm trying to say is: I don't agree with him, but it's his work and his "invention". Also the new lore is omnipresent in all of their titles, not just Heroes, so ther's spider cult in M&M, and this is why it's in Heroes also.
But this is precisely what I am contesting ever since the beginning. Heroes of Might and Magic is NOT Erwan’s invention. He had the task of doing a continuity, nobody asked him to scrap the previous universe for doing so, this is his assumption. Moreover, I am 100% convinced a new universe would have been more than welcomed, if it wasn’t some stuff that got the company having artistic legal issues with GW, or allegedly highly questionable gaming directions (HVI). As for relations with M&M universe, I am sorry, but I see quite the paradox here. Some fans precisely, were against the idea of Forge because they couldn’t care less about consistency between Heroes -which has always been apart, somehow standing out- and the M&M universe. How did NWC/3DO responded? They scrapped Forge! See, this is the difference, even though I still mourn its absence for personal reasons (well, I just love Forge). Now we have to deal with the Spider-cult in Heroes anyway because of consistency between Heroes and M&M. Speak about marketing, these decisions are horrible ones, it’s almost like doing the opposite of what the fan base is asking.
The solution I propose? Have Heroes stand out and be freed from all these ties that only hinders it.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 15, 2015 12:05 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Breaking a bidge or changing river flow, or even shut the underground passage, to get tactical advantage sounds awsome. I am a bit vorried how AI will use this feature tho . It would be also a shame to be only usefull in multiplayer battles. I myself play mostly LAN, this is true, but this includes co-op versus several hardest AI players, and if AI, can't use this feature, it would suck, so imo it's a thing to realy watch for, as it can make or brake a game more than visualy.
Although I would love to see AI becoming more of "intelligence" than "artificial", from the experiences of previous Ubi games I do not expect it to happen. They always had some issues with AI. I would like to see now some more gameplay footage and I can't wait to see the video for Haven. Maybe some new info would be revealed... 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 15, 2015 12:15 AM |
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Btw, guys, for those who're interested - Marzhin's map have been updated
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 15, 2015 12:35 AM |
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Galaad said:
But this is precisely what I am contesting ever since the beginning. Heroes of Might and Magic is NOT Erwan’s invention. He had the task of doing a continuity, nobody asked him to scrap the previous universe for doing so, this is his assumption. Moreover, I am 100% convinced a new universe would have been more than welcomed, if it wasn’t some stuff that got the company having artistic legal issues with GW, or allegedly highly questionable gaming directions (HVI). As for relations with M&M universe, I am sorry, but I see quite the paradox here. Some fans precisely, were against the idea of Forge because they couldn’t care less about consistency between Heroes -which has always been apart, somehow standing out- and the M&M universe. How did NWC responded? They scrapped Forge! See, this is the difference, even though I still mourn its absence for personal reasons (well, I just love Forge). Now we have to deal with the Spider-cult in Heroes anyway because of consistency between Heroes and M&M. Speak about marketing, these decisions are horrible ones, it’s almost like doing the opposite of what the fan base is asking.
The solution I propose? Have Heroes stand out and be freed from all these ties that only hinders it.
But this is exactly what I was pointing at. You see, eversince a decade back MaM is not the same. Heroes might not be Erwan's idea, but Ashan is, and as long as we are stuck in Ashan, or atleast this continent, the necropolis is tied to the symbol of a spider. As the Dungeon is to Dark Elves, or as Haven is to angels. In different part of that same world things might be different. But until we explore them, the necropoli spider connection is one that is sat in stone.
As I write this, there are 6 topics dedicated to necropolis on the first page alone, its units or design, but still you chose this topic, why? after 40+ pages of a never ending cqural where no side is willing to give even an "inch" of its ground.
And the way you started this Quote:
I challenge anyone to gain a QP by defending the Spider-cult.
This is not a phrase one would use to invite people to a discussion, this is a phrase a douche would used to make his point when he runs out of new ideas to defend his own. A "prove me wrong" attitude. You have no right to challenge anybody. Nobody is obligated to defend his opinion, and nobody needs to defend designs not made by them. You are not obligated to like them, just because somebody wants you to. But at the same time I, or anybody else, am not obligated to prove my opinions by arbitrary means, like a QP system, just because they are not the same as yours.
You made a reputation of yourself on the official web with your actions, a reputation that is not exactly flatering. Right now you are doing something similar here. You are putting yourself in a position where for me it is hard to see you as a person worthy of respect, even if I know your opinions are worth it.
The reason I nominated you as I did was not to disagree with you. Not to decrease the impact or value of your posts and effort. But to express an disagreement with your approach, and also express my opinion about your action's negative impact on the community. It is not about who you are, or what you stand for, but about how you present it. The spider is to you wha the gender is to JE. And your "Challenge" is in my eyes no-different to a request to justify a units gender.
I'm done with this topic now. And I will only react on personal messages on this matter from now.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted February 15, 2015 12:54 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Btw, guys, for those who're interested - Marzhin's map have been updated
It's constantly being updated ^^
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 15, 2015 01:34 AM |
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What are the free cities all about? Neutral units live there?
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
