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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 20, 2015 01:20 PM |
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Stevie said:
...We're just arguing about what meets the eye more than anything at the moment. We're pretty much in the dark about gameplay and mechanics.
What? You know nothing about gameplay and mechanics? Really? Just graphic?... Interesting
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 20, 2015 01:25 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
What? You know nothing about gameplay and mechanics? Really? Just graphic?... Interesting
yeah I know, I mean it kind of beggars belief that Ubi would focus on promoting aesthetics and fluff over actual gameplay, or does it lol
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2015 01:25 PM |
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We know some general lines - like that there will be 7 Magic schools for example. But we don't know what spells there are, how they are distributed, how they work, how balanced they are.......
Or take town development, apart from the races having an incentive for some buildings, like Haven for Walls, Stronghold for Dwellings, what do you actually know?
Things like that...
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 20, 2015 01:26 PM |
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I will analyse this matter quite soon. I feel that at the respevtive time in 2011 we knew much less about the game than at the times of Heroes VI than we do now. There are still some vital issues that should be presented soon (skill system, artifacts, etc.) but certainly communication with fandom is improved.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2015 01:33 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
Stevie said:
...We're just arguing about what meets the eye more than anything at the moment. We're pretty much in the dark about gameplay and mechanics.
What? You know nothing about gameplay and mechanics? Really? Just graphic?... Interesting
Well, go ahead. What DO you know?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 20, 2015 01:34 PM |
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I rarely agree with JJ, but he nailed it with Grim Reapers. For once I thought we'll see "true" Death unit with no connection to Namtarus, a simple Wraith. But hey, it must be another Vampire! Even if visually it's a Wraith?
A question: why there's nothing inside the hood? Magic?  There should've been a Vampire's face.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 20, 2015 01:36 PM |
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When I read about people not understanding the lore, it actually makes me feel rather smart, since seriously, there is nothing complicated about it. about it. Ask a simbple Wh. question and it can be aswerd with 3 or less sentences (and if some of you would like to try it, use the proper topic Galaad created )
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ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 20, 2015 01:43 PM |
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Hi!
I have been thinking about the creature abilities in the upcoming H7 videogame. Most of them seem to be passive abilities (constantly effecting, like magic immunity and so on…) and only a few activated abilities.
If I remember correctly the devs mentioned this and said it would be better this way and that it would bring out more tactical options. I cant think of any scenario where less options would provide more outcomes or tactical variety to the table :/ Is there something that I am not seeing in this?
I compiled a visual map of creature abilities to better make my point. I separated abilities for each faction and then again in two groups depending on the nature of the ability (active/passive). Haven ended up with 3, Acadaemy with 4 and Necropolis with 1 activated ability. To me this seems a bit… I don’t know what to say. I also understand that adding more activated abilities at this point would require the entire system to be rebalanced and tested, so it is pretty much out of the window.
Not that the previous games had many abilities, but this just seems kinda weird… like it might end up just either moving or hitting and that’s it… just creatures with different stats and 3D models and a price tag to go with the stats…
Anyways, below you can find the ability map and in the link is a more detail version of the abilities. I was just wondering what are your thoughts on this matter?
Detailed ability list
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 20, 2015 01:43 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Well, go ahead. What DO you know?
Lets try to find few...
- There will be 7 creatures in a player's army. The player will have to choose between the 2 champions of his faction
- Townscreens will be 2D. Every building will be seen on them
- No more city conversions
- No more global recruitment. Caravans will be back
- Ballista, Healing Tent and Catapult are back (no mention of the Ammo Cart though)
- Skillwheel is back !
- There will be 7 campaigns of 4-6 maps each: one per faction and a final one. You can do the "final" campaign anytime you finished one campaign, but the less campaigns you've completed, the harder to complete it will be
- There will be 7 ressources : no sulfur, mercury or gems though
- The game uses the Unreal Engine 3
- A map-editor will be shipped with the game
- The marketplace is back
- 6 schools of magic
- A lot more obstacles on the battle maps
- We will be able to destroy and repair some map objects like bridges
(Possibly campaign only, isn't stated clearly )
- Flanking attacks (look for details on blog)
- You have to register your game in Uplay once, after that you can play it offline
- the sector control system with its forts as in H6 will return
- Mage guild is back (look for details on the blog)
This is just a fraction of what we know, so please, don't tell me we know nothing.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 20, 2015 01:59 PM |
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@ThatRedSarah
I actually don't think, that all the abilities you marked as active are active, Shielding or Mana steal are more likely to be passive
But to the core of your question. Why is it better to have fewer abilities. Have you ever looked at games like Chess or GO? Games that are minimalistic in designe and told yourself, "This would be so much better if I gave each figure one special ability"? I think not, and these are some of the best strategy games of the world, thanks to this, to their tight designe and limited options.
The more option you have, the less is their individual impact. Look at H6, how many units had an activated AoE ability? Kappas, Panther warriors, Ravegers and more. Did this make the units in any way special? No and it actually limited the strategy, since you knew, that the opponent will use it. In the end, the game changed from a strategy to "use ability now"
Units should not be options, but tools, not a group of abilities, we have Heroes for that. Those should provide the options and abilities, not the units. Some small extent is OK but please no H6 again.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 20, 2015 02:02 PM |
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Dave_Jame:
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2015 02:25 PM |
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Ok, let's see.dark-whisperer said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, go ahead. What DO you know?
Quote:
- There will be 7 creatures in a player's army. The player will have to choose between the 2 champions of his faction
You forgot to mention that each creature can be upgraded once. That's quite unimportant, though, and doesn't say anything about either gameplay orcreature quality - it just says that we have HoMM 3, Basic HoMM 5 and HoMM 6 system, but can pick between champions (which I don't see any gameplay value in, sorry)
Quote:
- Townscreens will be 2D. Every building will be seen on them
Has nothing to do with gameplay - nor does it say something about the quality.
Quote:
- No more city conversions
So? That something is MISSING, doesn't say anything about gameplay either. Vonversion isn't something you MUST use - nor would it have to be the way it was in HoMM 6 - it might, for example, simply take a week, in which the town would be unusable...
Quote:
- No more global recruitment. Caravans will be back.
I hate Caravans, actually. Also, it's got nothing to do with how the game plays.
Quote:
- Ballista, Healing Tent and Catapult are back (no mention of the Ammo Cart though)
Yeah, well, but how do they PLAY? What do they DO? Can they be destroyed?
Quote:
- Skillwheel is back !
Yeah, well, but it can't have the same meaning as in HoMM 5, can it? Remember, in HoMM 5 there was ONE hero per faction; in HoMM 7 we have SIX. And we know - you forgot to mention - that we also get the old primary skills back: so how different will the 6 heroes of a faction be in terms of primary skills? And what does it mean, when they say that "Hero X excels in Racial, Skill, Skill"? Excel? IN WHICH WAY? HOW?
Quote:
- There will be 7 campaigns of 4-6 maps each: one per faction and a final one. You can do the "final" campaign anytime you finished one campaign, but the less campaigns you've completed, the harder to complete it will be
Gameplay? What if they are crap?
Quote:
- There will be 7 ressources : no sulfur, mercury or gems though
Yeah, instead we get rarer, yet rarer, more rare and extreme rare stuff. In other words - we DON'T KNOW HOW. For all we know they could keep the way it was in HoMM 6, except that each town uses mostly two of the rares or whatever; it doesn't have to be the way it was, it may PLAY OUT differently.
Quote:
- The game uses the Unreal Engine 3
So?
Quote:
- A map-editor will be shipped with the game
Every game except the first had one. So?
Quote:
- The marketplace is back
I didn't notice it was absent.
Quote:
- 6 7 schools of magic
Corrected that for you. So? It's like saying 4 different map sizes.
Quote:
- A lot more obstacles on the battle maps
If that's so - I don't know whether it is so - you can tell that it's bad for gameplay: Big Walkers? Dead weight!
Quote:
- We will be able to destroy and repair some map objects like bridges
(Possibly campaign only, isn't stated clearly )
So we don't know wnything exactly.
Quote:
- Flanking attacks (look for details on blog)
Unless we know any specifics, I'm quite sceptical about this.
Quote:
- You have to register your game in Uplay once, after that you can play it offline
If the game is crap, who cares?
Quote:
- the sector control system with its forts as in H6 will return
Since it didn't work too well in 6, you'd really hope things will turn out better this time, but we actually don't know, do we?
Quote:
- Mage guild is back (look for details on the blog)
Yeah. Plus 7 schools. Doubtful how "solid" that will be.
Quote:
This is just a fraction of what we know, so please, don't tell me we know nothing.
We know nothing.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 20, 2015 02:27 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 14:33, 20 Feb 2015.
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ThatRedSarah said:
Hi!
I have been thinking about the creature abilities in the upcoming H7 videogame. Most of them seem to be passive abilities (constantly effecting, like magic immunity and so on…) and only a few activated abilities.
If I remember correctly the devs mentioned this and said it would be better this way and that it would bring out more tactical options. I cant think of any scenario where less options would provide more outcomes or tactical variety to the table :/ Is there something that I am not seeing in this?
I compiled a visual map of creature abilities to better make my point. I separated abilities for each faction and then again in two groups depending on the nature of the ability (active/passive). Haven ended up with 3, Acadaemy with 4 and Necropolis with 1 activated ability. To me this seems a bit… I don’t know what to say. I also understand that adding more activated abilities at this point would require the entire system to be rebalanced and tested, so it is pretty much out of the window.
Not that the previous games had many abilities, but this just seems kinda weird… like it might end up just either moving or hitting and that’s it… just creatures with different stats and 3D models and a price tag to go with the stats…
Anyways, below you can find the ability map and in the link is a more detail version of the abilities. I was just wondering what are your thoughts on this matter?
Detailed ability list
heard of extra credits? They made a video on the subject that's certainly worth a watch.
anyway, less active abilities does not necessarily mean less options: it marely means less complexity. Less stuff you need to think about at all times. let's compare h3 and 6 for a second: One has an abundance of actives while the other does not. Which is which and which one offers better depth?
more Actives give complexity to a game but complexity does not automatically make a game deep, only harder to get a grasp of. Depth depends on how many options you have from the tools given to you by the game. H3 used this really well since troops were you could get hundreds of different results from the same match-ups if you experimented a bit. h6, on the other hand, had many active abilities and combat seldom gave different results since there was always an objectively "correct" way of doing things with creature-abilities to minimize casualties rather than simply playing smart.
what purpose did the kirin ice-breath ability serve? We all know why, it was to make the Kirin more viable for magic heroes, but why should there be an extra option i will pretty much have to take every time it's available? it's one more thing you HAVE to be aware of that didn't add any meaningful choice. you used it whenever it was available and didn't when it wasn't. there's no choice there and the same can be applied to most of the creature abilities.
i hope i made sense...
EDIT: Dave-jame explained it better ._.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 20, 2015 02:42 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
EDIT: Dave-jame explained it better ._.
There is nothing as good as blowing your own trumpet.  Speaking about analysis, I have to admit, it is better.
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ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 20, 2015 02:44 PM |
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@Dave_Jame
In the description of Shielding it says "at the cost of their own safety". Not sure what that means exactly, but if it risks the troop it self i think i would want to be in charge of when it is allowed to trigger. Otherwise i might end up shielding someone that i dont want to and get hit in the process :/ And in case of Mana steal.. well i guess it could go either way 
No idea about GO, but I love chess! The system sure is minimalistic and it works fantastically, but i think its mostly because of the restricted move patterns of individual units. Whit that the board gets sectioned into different tactical areas and so on. In Heroes games its more like "move and hit anywhere in the radius of X tiles". There is no restrictions or such and you can just snake your way between units as long as you have movement left. And end up hitting some guy in the back row. Would be nice to have some actual guarding abilities that would say something like "if you pass this guarding creature with in 2 tiles it will stop you brake your bones" Without some restricted movement patterns or such i find that there is not that much meaning to the actual precise location of individual creatures. They are just "somewhere over there" and that is enough info most of the time.
Never really played H6 because blah... so i cant comment on that, but what you are saying does make sense in a way
I agree that units should be the tools for the player/hero to use. But much like in chess i would prefer to have an arsenal of different tools at hands. Providing the tactical options through the hero action (once a turn) doesnt seem like so much fun to me. Like a skilled carpenter with a toolbox full of only hammers 
But yeah as i said i didnt play much of H6 so you might be right that a system with multiple creature abilities just doesnt work that well in this game... It was just something that i started to think about. Maybe i just need to worry less at this point and crawl back in to the shadows to wait for more details about the game mechanics as a whole before trying to understand individual parts of it
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 20, 2015 02:48 PM |
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man, if an insider like Jolly Joker can be even gloomier about the game than I am, I really don't know what to say or do lol
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted February 20, 2015 02:48 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 14:52, 20 Feb 2015.
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ThatRedSarah said:
Maybe i just need to worry less at this point and crawl back in to the shadows to wait for more details about the game mechanics as a whole before trying to understand individual parts of it
I would recommend it its a good choice.
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ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 20, 2015 03:16 PM |
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@Dave_Jame
@kiryu133
To summarize...
I totally get that too many options isnt necessary a good thing if they are implemented in a wrong way. And i didnt know that the H6 abilities were mostly just "a better version of basic attack" or something like that. That just completely negates the "tactical option" if it is always the better thing to do.
Thats actually why i am so happy about the random skills being possible. I think that a system like in H6 would just drive people to take the same skills every time in the same order once a good pattern was found. "Here are you available skills. Pick any one you want. But maybe not any of these because they are not any good. Try one of these... Oh just choose them according to this masterplan i printed for you."
But yeah i am probably just freaking out about nothing. The system reminds me of the H3 system like you said and it did work brilliantly! Thanks for pulling me back above the surface from this momentary abyss of despair
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2015 03:24 PM |
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verriker said:
man, if an insider like Jolly Joker can be even gloomier about the game than I am, I really don't know what to say or do lol
I am not gloomy. I'm just stating that little is known that would allow something like a judgement in terms of how the game will play. For example, Dave_Jame just explained how and why less active creature abilities are good (something that wasn't mentioned as "knowledge", hich is one of the few known details about the game that ARE in fact "known" that allow a conclusion, that the gameplay might be good.
If the game was a car, we'd know something like, the dashboard is tidier than in the last model, it comes with 4 wheels and a 7-gear transmission - but since we don't know anything about horsepower and max speed, we actually don't know whether those 7 gears will be a good thing (500 HP, 300 Km/h), or whether they will plain suck (50 HP, 140 Km/h).
There is some reason for optimism and some for pessimism, depending on how you rate things like "Caravans are back" - and in the meantime I complain about "creature names to please the crowd that are devoid of meaning and just empty shells" - but keep in mind that names and looks of this or that creature are UTTERLY meaningless for gameplay; these things could suck completely - gameplay could still be fabulous.
However, that's in the could/might/maybe department for now.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted February 20, 2015 03:31 PM |
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They should really keep stuff such as shooter and flier in the list of abilities. It just feels weird when you have to guess these base attributes from how the creature looks...
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
