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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:42 AM |
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Edited by lokdron at 00:47, 10 May 2015.
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Well does that not make the faction more interesting then? I mean hell they are actually wrong and don't realize it?
I mean all the other factions KNOW their god cares and they Know they they are actually interacting with them.(which is pretty boring in my opinion) Doesn't that make the faction more human in a sense?
It makes the whole religious tension and arguments within the faction more interesting. Plus they kept the darn thing even if they learned the truth.
I mean religion generally is putting your own interpretation on things? Plus people can't agree on texts or whether this said person is an avatar or not.
I mean some necromancers would just re adjust their beliefs for example well yes it IS her nightmares. Those came from her and created this being, a being who can predict the future, hates urgash and still has power over her sphere and helps them out and creates vampires.
Its a very human thing to do hell people are still arguing over if a certain someone really came from you know where or is the son of so and so.
Honestly I think it adds layer to the faction and Anastasya does not seem like a person to keep something like that a secret forever.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:47 AM |
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:48 AM |
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I'm actually not sure even about the rest of the Dragons approving their devotees' actions. I mean, I'm having a hard time picturing Elrath being okay with all the snow that angels are doing.
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:50 AM |
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Edited by lokdron at 01:08, 10 May 2015.
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Stevie said:
They're a joke! How can that be interesting? Delusional religious hypocrites.
Well you could say the same in real life hence why I find it interesting. 
Sligneris said:
I'm actually not sure even about the rest of the Dragons approving their devotees' actions. I mean, I'm having a hard time picturing Elrath being okay with all the snow that angels are doing.
Hmm that depends I hold the opinion that the dragons have good and bad parts to them. They like anyone who follows any of their tenets I mean look at malassa she marks people they go insane and she does nothing.
Heck they even speak to their avatars on a daily basis and they keep these people around. Now if someone assassinates them using the shadows she is also okay with that since they are following her ways so to speak.
Like the inquisitors they are crazily loyal to elrath hence why they can still use the light and what does elrath value the most? Loyalty and here is where things get muddy. Inquisitors are still spreading the light( talking about h6 ones) they are routing out darkness and are ensuring people remain "loyal" to elrath.
Now this good cleric also knows that elrath approves of helping others so out "loyalty" and faith they try to stop the inquisitors actions.
They are both following his tenets so they are both "right" so he gives power to both.
Now this is why I believe this is partly the reason why Sandro hates the dragon gods because they are doing stuff like this. Now we all know he wants to become a god but it seems like the dragons are just using people and their faith for their own benefit and do not care if they followers murder each other.
Since they still believe in them and that's what's important to them.
Well this is all my opinion you are free to disagree.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:50 AM |
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Maurice said:
I've written it before, but for me, the distinction is pretty obvious.
Necropolis is pure Evil and about anti-life. They want to snuff out all life and drown the world in eternal undeath. Life opposes everything they stand for; they hate it with a passion, strive to let everything wither and decay. They see the weaker life forms as cattle, to be harvested and swell their ranks. They want to engulf the world in eternal darkness and actively seek to destroy it.
Arachnopolis is True Neutral and about eternal life. they don't care about life or death of others in anyway. They're purely self-centered and life is at the very core of their being, which they try to encase for all eternity. They resurrect the dead mostly because it's convenient and easy for them to do so, since they're dabbling in Necromantic powers anyway. They care little for the world around them, if it doesn't help them achieve eternal life.
And still they both can be considered necromancers and i want to see both kinds in the game. Although i don't entirely agree with the assesment, the spider cult was born when some necromancers in House of Eterna decided to attempt caring about stuff.
Lokdon is right, the Ashan necromancers might seem goody two-shoes, but this view is mostly because of the fact that the faction isnt inherently evil or Ubi prefers to use good looking portraits for heroes. If you look closer then the picture looks a lot different.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:54 AM |
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Stevie said:
They're a joke! How can that be interesting? Delusional religious hypocrites.
As a DM/GM and a wannable storyteller i can think of at least 10 ways to make awesome story/plot/adventure about a death cult consisting of religious hypocrites.
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:02 AM |
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Sorts said:
Stevie said:
They're a joke! How can that be interesting? Delusional religious hypocrites.
As a DM/GM and a wannable storyteller i can think of at least 10 ways to make awesome story/plot/adventure about a death cult consisting of religious hypocrites.
Honestly that's my favorite part of the current necropolis they are constantly shifting because there is a schism between those who want to follow the religion and does who do not.
The whole delusion and religious hypocrisy is my favorite part of almost any rpg setting. Heck that's what the whole disciples series is about.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:06 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:10, 10 May 2015.
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Well, they SHOULD be inherently evil. For goodness' sake, they're freaking abominations. They go against the natural order of things and against cycle of life and death. What could possibly be more vile than that? Asha herself would turn in her cocoon had she known how they violate her creation, which in their hypocrisy they dare claim to respect. And from there on you have a totally unnecessary moral/consistency problem inside the undead faction which is laughable! They should not give a damn! They should be marching the earth trying to snuff out the flame of life. Sandro was a far better necromancer than any of those wannabes like Anastasya and Sveltana combined, reason why he was so well received.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 10, 2015 01:09 AM |
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Sligneris said:
Personally, reasons listed by Lokdron and Maurice are why I prefer Ashan's portrayal of Necropolis.
But the point I've been argueing is that it's not a Necropolis in the classical sense. In my eyes, it is a mislabeled faction; it's not about (un)death, but about life in a twisted way. It's like they built a vehicle with only three wheels and then called it a car, except that it's really a trike.
In and of itself, a faction with such a philosophy is fine by itself - just don't call it something it isn't! 
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:12 AM |
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Edited by lokdron at 01:18, 10 May 2015.
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Stevie said:
Well, they SHOULD be inherently evil. For goodness' sake, they're freaking abominations. They go against the natural order of things and against cycle of life and death. What could possibly be more vile than that? Asha herself would turn in her cocoon had she known how they violate her creation, which in their hypocrisy they dare claim to respect. And from there on you have a totally unnecessary moral/consistency problem inside the undead faction which is laughable! They should not give a damn! They should be marching the earth trying to snuff out the flame of life. Sandro was a far better necromancer than any of those vampire wannabes like Anastasya and Sveltana combined, reason why he was so well received.
Fun fact people hate inferno because they are Inherently evil and just wreck things. SOooo you want the same for Necropolis standard necromancers who sit in towers sneering at the living and deciding to murder them all for reasons?
Even Sandro in the Ashan universe had some shades of grey in there, well agree to disagree Stevie. I mean Arantir is one of my favourite characters because he was not Inherently evil. Even the undead legions in disciples aren't Inherently evil all the factions in the series are grey.
Maurice looking at the definition of necropolis it still fits within the context of the Ashan faction.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 10, 2015 01:19 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 01:26, 10 May 2015.
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Stevie said:
Well, they SHOULD be inherently evil.
Should they? Quasimodo was also an abomination, yet he wasn't the bad guy. Abomination isn't equal to being evil.
However, I feel that Necromancer in Heroes VII campaign should be a fanatic. Not a "fanatic" like his undead comrades but a true maniac who is ready to destroy the whole of life in the most intimidating way imaginable because he believes that what he does is right. Ivan is supposed to learn also upon mistakes of others and this guy should be as such.
PS. Whole "Is Ashanese Necropolis Necropolis or not" reminds me of a discussion "what is a true tortilla - Spanish one ("tortilla de patatas") or Mexican one (flatbread from maize flour)?"  Why can't both tortillas be tortillas, just like why cannot both Necros be Necropolis...?
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:50 AM |
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The core of that conflict is that one is believed to be a tainted image of the other. Both of these Necros are factions of undead and what you describe would certainly be nice, but I'm not sure if we can have nice things like that in here... not when one is considered superior than the other by default.
Personally, I find the image of what Stevie described to be rather boring - cliche spooky evils all over the place. That sounds okay for a theme in an amusement park, not for a game that is a form of storytelling. It's one of the first reasons I believe the old universe to be a bit overestimated...
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 02:07 AM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 03:27, 10 May 2015.
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Stevie said:
Well, they SHOULD be inherently evil. For goodness' sake, they're freaking abominations. They go against the natural order of things and against cycle of life and death. What could possibly be more vile than that? Asha herself would turn in her cocoon had she known how they violate her creation, which in their hypocrisy they dare claim to respect. And from there on you have a totally unnecessary moral/consistency problem inside the undead faction which is laughable! They should not give a damn! They should be marching the earth trying to snuff out the flame of life. Sandro was a far better necromancer than any of those wannabes like Anastasya and Sveltana combined, reason why he was so well received.
this, i agree, im on the same page with your philosophy.
but to point out, honestly i think thats not the only reason why sandro is a good character and loved by many. back in h3 days, me and my brother was not really into community/fanbase and sandro was still our favourite hero. i still dont know why, most probably because of "charismatic intelligent evil" thingy. what im certain is, we didnt care lore in those days, simply because we had no english knowladge to understand lol.
simplicity indeed does matter. just make it impressive and thats all, what he believes in, really doesnt matter much. its detail, unimportant, hardly related to anything in gameplay experience.
haven heroes on the other hand was a bit more different. i did enjoyed looking at zaelous knights and hooded monk-like figures in haven. loynis for instance, just looking at picture was enough to like him. he is the guy blesses troops, his face shows no sign of open mind. he is religious.
lokdron said:
Fun fact people hate inferno because they are Inherently evil and just wreck things. SOooo you want the same for Necropolis standard necromancers who sit in towers sneering at the living and deciding to murder them all for reasons?
yeah people said that, and i acctually believed that in that inferno vs dungeon time. but now, i think it was only a political lie, to my guess noone really disliked inferno because of that. main reasons are probably because of those three:
1-people really believe in religion, dont like devil figures.
2-ugly monsters are out of trend, new generation likes to see SEXY figures. surface elves and dark elves are no brainer picks because of that. i remember many people saying "dwarfs are ugly".
3-inferno was a weak faction in h3,h5 and h6. they never really got a proper strenght somehow. even gating ability did sucked. h6 fixed that in some degree by giving it additional usage as "obstecle" but still, it was not good enough. creatures always had issues in survival in all games.. tl;dr inferno sucked big time, and people wants to play with strong satisfying factions. so again back to "simplicity". make it good looking, impressive and usefull and people will like it. lore is just a hardcore fan detail, when you allready like something you go deeper to learn more.
my very last thoughts on necro, lore is too much on the front, even if you dont care lore, you can smell religion all over them, and this means it effects atmosphere very much. it looks strange and not like anything we are used to see from undeads. feeling havenly vabretions from necro aint a good thing for atmosphere. i mean whats next? peaceful music? it violates what people like about necro, even my no-english knowing child version would be saying "meh" to it. confusing, unnatural feelings for undeads, it doesnt fit. the whole gray spot thing is nice and all, it makes it deep but seriously it should stay at deep, why its on the front like that? just let it stay in deep so people interested in more, should look for it and the rest can stay away as far as they want.
h3 made similair experiments, but its was avoidable: one example is ayden:
just look at him. who the hell wants to learn about ayden? beyond that, he is disturbingly awful looking. but luckyly this desing approach is only affecting one hero, and you can avoid seeing/playing him. its a small experiment.
and then we have calh, which is interesting enough to look for his lore. safe approach of desing, so we have lots of demons like him. traditional, seen appropriate by many players.
if any dev is reading this, please do your experiment in small scale so you can see if we like it or not without causing you pay big costs/complaints.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 08:17 AM |
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As far as Ayden is concerned: YES this is what I was talking about when I ment ugly hero portraits. I loved Ayden's portrait, and offten played him.
But that does not matter - to the point: Necropolis was always evil faction, that is true, BUT what is the line between good and evil? Angels can also ressurect people, and they aren't evil. Do only looks make something evil? Example of Sandro - he can be good, sure he looks skeletal dude, but that's a terrible curse that he must bear, otherwise, he could be a decent dude.
Is something that is skeletal realy evil? Or is that just prejudice, people have towards undead? Maybe THEY are trully evil? Or maybe each faction simply folows their own agenda - that is to conquer the fantasy world. In which case...there's no evil.
My personal - out of game philosophy is that there's no good and evil, as they are by deafult religious constructs. Sure in fantasy settgin it's fun to play a role of good or sometimes evil dude, but when playing HoMM just over LAN, then this element is lost.
I DO MISS old school GOOD vs EVIL HoMM in a way, but at same time, I'm open to ideas that are diferent.
Example: Vampires
There IS a way to construct non-evil / good vampire, witouth resorting to Twilight tropes. Those who saw the movie BLADE would know this. And would also know that Vampires can be realy cool vielding swords, guns, and knowing martial arts 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 10, 2015 09:18 AM |
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I'll take arachnopolis seriously when they take themselves seriously.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted May 10, 2015 09:19 AM |
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cleglaw said:
3-inferno was a weak faction in h3,h5 and h6.
I didn't, and don't, consider Inferno 'weak' in H6, really. The line-up has two ranged units (Breeder and Succubus). The first one increases its stack size at the start of combat and has the 'mobile shooter' ability. The Succubus/Lilim can enthrall an enemy creature, temporarily disabling them. Then there's the Pit Lord, who has a hit-all magic attack known as Boundless Hate. That can cause some serious damage if their numbers are high enough. Plus their strikes can inflict Frenzy or whatevs on the enemy unit, which may lead to them attacking allied units. Lacerators/Tormentors with their exploding spikes, and of course the Ravagers who can perform a Rampage. And don't forget their Taunting Presence ability which forces adjacent creatures to attack the Ravager only.
Not to mention the heroes themselves. My fav is Magic + Blood because of the Armageddon ability that comes with it. Give that hero the Will of Urgash DW at level 5 and you're good to go. The system of Gating works fine, I guess. Only Gating IV immediately spawns the creature. Killing the original stack destroys the gated stack too, but you can use spells to protect them (like Petrification). Also, you can exploit the Ravagers to this end. However, the Hellcaller (Might + Tears) can ensure that gated creatures remain in your army after combat, as long as it doesn't exceed the original stack size.
"Weak" may depend on your strategy, the way you deploy your army or build your hero. Depending on one's skills, preferences or tactics, any faction could potentially be weak or strong. When used well, Inferno can be an exceptional force  .
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 10, 2015 09:28 AM |
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too bad focusing on luck in a game where getting 10% crit-chance is a frikkin' achievement really messed them over.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted May 10, 2015 09:37 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
too bad focusing on luck in a game where getting 10% crit-chance is a frikkin' achievement really messed them over.
That's why one should boost Destiny as much as possible. With a Might hero you can go for Destiny III, Magic unfortunately can only go to II. If you end up with over 20 Destiny, the chances of lucky strikes aren't that low. It's just a matter of...well...luck. You can send a stack out for an attack, hoping they will get a lucky hit. And if not, they'll take some more damage because the enemy stack wasn't reduced as much as one had hoped .
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 10, 2015 09:55 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
I'll take arachnopolis seriously when they take themselves seriously.
I think that I agree with your point but what do you mean by"taking themselves seriously"?
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Rinveron
Hired Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 10:02 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
kiryu133 said:
I'll take arachnopolis seriously when they take themselves seriously.
I think that I agree with your point but what do you mean by"taking themselves seriously"?
I guess talking about ubisoft.
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