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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 10, 2015 11:12 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
I think that I agree with your point but what do you mean by"taking themselves seriously"?
they're too desperate to be "edgy" and "hardcore" that they're just childish. you don't need to put spikes, spiders, green stuff and grey morals on everything. that just comes off as desperate and Arachnopolis just reeks of desperation. "It's cool, we promise! it has spikes everywhere! You like spikes, right?"
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 11:15 AM |
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a bit unrelated maybe, but i ll tell anyway:
previous year, in my architecture project for my university, i designed a dormitory for students. i was pasionate about project, so i made it very detailed even at cost of my spare time... i built up a philosophy and tried to follow it as a unique cool concept. everything was fine, i was able to make it real but... there was a major issue i missed to see=it wasnt looking nice for casual user. i was too much in and i missed that.
what i thought was an idea or RECYCLE, of students to REFIND themselves, getting REPAIRED after lots of things they encounter in life, as a number one reason, lessons with full of unimportant knowladge... this led me to design a building looking like a factory... you see, my philosophy was not bad, but application of it, the outcome was bad.
later then, it took me a month to come out to reality and fix it for the main purpose: a good loking, enjoyable building.
TL;DR-its not good to dive in lore/philosophy too much. one should never forget the main goal: creating beuty and function.
i feel something similair happening/was happening? with devs, but probably they realised this by now. spideropolis and 2 unit redisgns after that, makes me think this way.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 11:19 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:23, 10 May 2015.
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Stevie said:
They're a joke! How can that be interesting? Delusional religious hypocrites.
stevie im sorry to say this but this community is way more hypocritical than the ashan necromancers!!
the level of nitpicking that happens to ashan lore just so it can be proven "bad" is unbelievable. especially when ER'BODY turns a blind eye to the inferno-space aliens at heroes 3. that thing only is way more stupid than ALL of ashan's "inconsistencies" .even more stupid than isabelle herself!!! can you believe that?
that's hypocritical and i hate telling those things to you especially.
also a delusional cult that plays nice but acts sinister even without understanding it, is way more interesting than "kill kill kill" one dimensioned necropolis.
heroes 3 had its merits and i have enjoyed them back in the day.
but please people whenever you attack ashan without a good reason please put the word "nostalgia" in the start of your post. because this is getting ridiculous. nostalgia is not a bad thing but at least admit it people!
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 11:27 AM |
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Sligneris said:
The core of that conflict is that one is believed to be a tainted image of the other. Both of these Necros are factions of undead and what you describe would certainly be nice, but I'm not sure if we can have nice things like that in here... not when one is considered superior than the other by default.
Personally, I find the image of what Stevie described to be rather boring - cliche spooky evils all over the place. That sounds okay for a theme in an amusement park, not for a game that is a form of storytelling. It's one of the first reasons I believe the old universe to be a bit overestimated...
a friendly advice. give up. reason does not work against nostalgia. better focus on this site's info about the game and gameplay, and not opinions, it will destroy you if you let it
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 10, 2015 11:44 AM |
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I never cared about the sci fi aspects of the old universe but having only played homm and not m&m, a unit's background is irrelevant to me. Demons, aliens, does it even matter? For me a devil is a devil If someone told me that the old angels were cyborgs would that ruin my previous experience with homm? I'd just ignore it or wouldn't care. I can afford to do so because the old homm universe does not force its ideas down my throat and its creatures can be whatever I want them to be. That is why people could create lotr maps and what not back in the day. An elf is an elf, a death knight is a death knight. You use them for the role you have in mind because they cover an archetype. Sadly, new units cover the Ashan archetype only. Leaves a lot less room for ambiguity.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 11:57 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
stevie im sorry to say this but this community is way more hypocritical than the ashan necromancers!!
I pointed out hypocrisy in this community many times, I doubt pointing that out again will change much.
Elvin said:
You use them for the role you have in mind because they cover an archetype. Sadly, new units cover the Ashan archetype only. Leaves a lot less room for ambiguity.
I'm not sure why everyone says it's a problem. Do you believe it's wrong when game's visuals reflect its setting and its atmosphere? I don't. It's only natural for visuals to adhere to the setting, and frankly, the idea of visuals being completely irrelevant to what the game's world really looks like is absurd. Graphics' only purpose is it portray the world, to give as an idea of how it looks like. You know that when you look at every other game. Saying that M&M should do otherwise for some silly reason... Really now? 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 10, 2015 12:08 PM |
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Just the facts. Not many care about the universe, they did not back then and a lot fewer do right now. Many do want to use their creatures as they see fit in the maps they play.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 10, 2015 12:09 PM |
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Maurice said:
Sligneris said:
Personally, reasons listed by Lokdron and Maurice are why I prefer Ashan's portrayal of Necropolis.
But the point I've been argueing is that it's not a Necropolis in the classical sense. In my eyes, it is a mislabeled faction; it's not about (un)death, but about life in a twisted way. It's like they built a vehicle with only three wheels and then called it a car, except that it's really a trike.
In and of itself, a faction with such a philosophy is fine by itself - just don't call it something it isn't!
I believe I expressed something similar myself previously. Ashan Necropolis replaces H1-4 Necropolis, when it is the opposite of that.
I miss the old Necropolis so much 
With that said, I'm utterly bored by the "mindlessly-bash-Ashan-and-Erwan vs all-praise-to-Ashan-concepts". I know which side is more ridiculous, but none of them are helping at all.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:13 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:13, 10 May 2015.
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ChrisD1 said:
stevie im sorry to say this but this community is way more hypocritical than the ashan necromancers!!
the level of nitpicking that happens to ashan lore just so it can be proven "bad" is unbelievable. especially when ER'BODY turns a blind eye to the inferno-space aliens at heroes 3. that thing only is way more stupid than ALL of ashan's "inconsistencies" .even more stupid than isabelle herself!!! can you believe that?
that's hypocritical and i hate telling those things to you especially.
also a delusional cult that plays nice but acts sinister even without understanding it, is way more interesting than "kill kill kill" one dimensioned necropolis.
heroes 3 had its merits and i have enjoyed them back in the day.
but please people whenever you attack ashan without a good reason please put the word "nostalgia" in the start of your post. because this is getting ridiculous. nostalgia is not a bad thing but at least admit it people!
I didn't particularly enjoy it when I found out about the demons being aliens, because I wasn't force fed with canon while playing Heroes. I had no idea and I couldn't care less. To me their appearance spoke more than enough and I took them for granted. That said, were you to study biblical demons, you would find out that they ARE in fact aliens, as in not originating from Earth. But I won't make a point out of that, just take it as you will.
And no, it isn't more stupid than Ashan's inconsistencies and silliness. Far from it. Ashan is a mountain of bullsnow which won't be surpassed by anyone anytime soon, save for the genius that originally invented it.
A delusional cult acting nice but playing sinister? Wherever you might've seen that, because Ashan's Necropolis acts stupidly when trying to play nice. There is nothing sinister about it, there is no mastermind behind doomsday plans, there is no charismatic villain. They are the exact one dimensional characters which you're talking about, only it's not about kill kill kill, but pray pray pray to a Spider image for all eternity and look fabulous while doing it.
And as a counter to the nostalgia argument, put the word "fanboyism" in front of your posts because it's beginning to reek of a poor argument to use. I don't even know the lore of the old universe, I'm safe from any sort of nostalgia feeling. I'm judging Ashan for the pile of crap it is by itself.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:22 PM |
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Stevie said:
And no, it isn't more stupid than Ashan's inconsistencies and silliness. Far from it. Ashan is a mountain of bullsnow which won't be surpassed by anyone anytime soon, save for the genius that originally invented it.
I love how Ashan is supposedly "inconsistent, silly bullsnow" and we're supposed to take that as a fact, while it's nothing but subjective opinion, a badly constructed one at that. Ashan is a great fantasy world and I have yet to find any problems with this setting, aside from a bunch of guys complaining about it.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 10, 2015 12:23 PM |
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To the people who don’t like NWC lore I can only say one thing.
Now, even I am growing tired of the Ashan debate (also, we have the Ashan thread for that), maybe surprisingly for some, my lost of interest in H7 is being generated by gameplay elements, such as skill system, which worries me a lot, as I highly doubt RS implementation will save it.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 10, 2015 12:31 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:38, 10 May 2015.
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lokdron said:
Maurice looking at the definition of necropolis it still fits within the context of the Ashan faction.
To me, it doesn't. Necropolis is truly evil and opposed to all life, actively using necromantic creations to replace the life they destroy. Arachnopolis is true neutral and meddling with life and death, which resurrects the dead as a matter of convenience, just like the Wizards raise golems and gargoyles.
Once again, I don't mind a true neutral faction like Arachnopolis who just happens to dabble into necromantic energies, but to me it's mislabeled when it's considered a Necropolis. It would be akin to calling the Sorceres town in H2 or Rampart in H3 a Dwarven town, just because a Dwarf happened to be in the line-up, while neither towns' philosophy is about digging in the dirt for the riches that lie below the surface.
And as for Inferno? I never played the M&M series, so I firmly reject the part that says that Inferno were actually aliens. There are no such hints in the Heroes games whatsoever and their design looks like something that comes from the bible or other, older - earthbased - mythological sources. The main reason I am against Inferno in H5 and H6 was that their story was incredibly flat: oww, we have an eclipse and it's once again Inferno running rampant and once the eclipse is done, they're safely back in Sheogh with the world taking a breather again. The fact that they only have one plot device (the eclipse) to make them a part of the everyday life in Ashan also means they have to exploit that plot device to make it work. How's that for painting yourself into a corner with respect to a faction? If they had simply come up from way deep below the surface, able to persist on the surface world indefinately when allowed, it would create so much more story opportunities, it's not even funny.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:35 PM |
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Necropolis literally just means "City of the Dead" and both the old and new versions are that
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:37 PM |
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I don't understand why Ashanites (don't get this as a degradation) want exceptional story and lore in a strategy game. Can you name one that has these features? Because I sure can't, and I don't think any other player plays these games for them (Okay Blizzard games has these features since Warcraft3, but they aren't forcing them down your throats. It's just there if you want it).
You can make good story and lore without forcing it to the player, it can take a backseat and if you want to explore the world the game is played in, you have that option in other forms.(descriptions and through the campaign) JUST DON'T put it in the foreground. And that's the problem with heroes since (part of) H5 but mainly since H6... Too much lore and too few custom maps, I can't play the game because there are no maps to play on, and I can only play the campaigns which suck big time, since campaign maps aren't that great and I couldn't care much for the story (maybe on first time playthrough).
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:38 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Necropolis literally just means "City of the Dead" and both the old and new versions are that
Don't you dare use logic against a fan's beliefs.
cori14 said:
I don't understand why Ashanians want exceptional story and lore in a strategy game. Can you name one that has these features? Because I sure can't, and I don't think any other player plays these games for them (Okay Blizzard games has these features since Warcraft3, but they aren't forcing them down your throats. It's just there if you want it).
Well, there is one game of tactical role-playing genre that I can think of... 
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 10, 2015 12:39 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
they're too desperate to be "edgy" and "hardcore" that they're just childish. you don't need to put spikes, spiders, green stuff and grey morals on everything. that just comes off as desperate and Arachnopolis just reeks of desperation. "It's cool, we promise! it has spikes everywhere! You like spikes, right?"
You don't like green? I see.
In order to present grey moral interestingly, you need a good story and writing. Sadly, up to Heroes VI DLCs' lore of Ashan lacked both things and instead of personalities that are torn between their Mind and Heart we got heroes that were mostly bland. Story is one of the aspects of Heroes VII that I am particularly interested and which I want to be simply engaging and good. After "Ten Years War" series I remain optimistic in that aspect, so maybe finallyAshan would get a proper represebtation in writing.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:42 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:43, 10 May 2015.
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Sligneris said:
GenyaArikado said:
Necropolis literally just means "City of the Dead" and both the old and new versions are that
Don't you dare use logic against a fan's beliefs.
Logic?! LOL! So you would agree with good demons, beautifully looking preservers of life, because their town being named Inferno would still mean Hell?
Do you actually understand the concept of archetype?
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:46 PM |
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Edited by cori14 at 12:50, 10 May 2015.
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Sligneris said:
GenyaArikado said:
Necropolis literally just means "City of the Dead" and both the old and new versions are that
Don't you dare use logic against a fan's beliefs.
It's not about the meaning of the name, but the sudden change of philosophy behind the necromancer town. (Even in H5 it was the old way, Necromancers are bad and want to conquer and kill blabla... since H6 everything was changed.
Sligneris said:
Well, there is one game of tactical role-playing genre that I can thing of...
Well played
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:46 PM |
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Stevie said:
Logic?! LOL! So you would agree with good demons preserving life and looking beautiful because their town being named Inferno still means Hell?
Do you actually understand the concept of archetype?
Vampires being beautiful and demons being beautiful are so comparable are both so equally against their archetypes... Nope.
cori14 said:
It's not about the meaning of the name, but the sudden change of philosophy behind the necromancer town. (Even in H5 it was the old way, Necromancers are bad and want to conquer and kill blabla... since H6 everything was changed.
Which I believe was exactly the reason why Heroes V plot was considered terrible and Isabel was considered to be an idiot - exactly because the game failed to get across that necromancers are not as obviously evil in Ashan? Really now. 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:48 PM |
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
