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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:54 PM |
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Edited by cori14 at 13:03, 10 May 2015.
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Sligneris said:
Which I believe was exactly the reason why Heroes V plot was considered terrible and Isabel was considered to be an idiot - exactly because the game failed to get across that necromancers are not as obviously evil in Ashan? Really now. 
No. Heroes 5 story was bad because, It was badly written. It could have been good, I liked the concept of Markal manipulating the queen and starting an all out war(maybe not with every faction, but one at a time), but It could have been done in a good way, Isabel could have been a much better character, or giving time for Markal to get her trust and so on.
Edit: And even then It's not about the story, It's about the looks of the units. H5 had a good Necro roster. And if H6 Necro would have had a good unit line up I wouldn't hate on them much (and of course if h6 wouldn't be a very mediocre game - terrible in heroes measures)... But the line up were terrible imo.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 10, 2015 12:56 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 12:57, 10 May 2015.
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Both sides truly need to stop this pointless discussion. For one side the archetype of Necropolis is the one from Heroes II/III, where Necropolis was a city of evil men and the second side believes that current state of Necropolis is completely alright. Each side won't convince the other one, so can we stop and live in peace and love? 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 12:57 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:57, 10 May 2015.
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cori14 said:
Sligneris said:
Which I believe was exactly the reason why Heroes V plot was considered terrible and Isabel was considered to be an idiot - exactly because the game failed to get across that necromancers are not as obviously evil in Ashan? Really now.
No. Heroes 5 story was bad because, It was badly written. It could have been good, I liked the concept of Markal manipulating the queen and starting an all out war(maybe not with every faction, but one at a time), but It could have been done in a good way, Isabel could have been a much better character, or giving time for Markal to get her trust and so on.
You talk about the necromancers of Heroes 5, he replies about the plot of Heroes 5 in general and about Isabel. God awful. I won't waste my breath anymore.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted May 10, 2015 12:59 PM |
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So, the flaws of the lore from the old universe(s) can be overlooked by youthful bliss and lack of caring? While Ashan is to be disected, nitpicked, compared and ridiculed in comparison to the old universe? That sounds like nostalgia to me.
Not that Ashan will win any literary awards any time soon. But the old universe wouldnt either.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:01 PM |
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Stevie said:
You are such a poor debater. Read cori's above post, maybe you can get his explanation.
I'm poor debater, because I pointed out how poor your comparison was? Really now?  Frankly, I wouldn't call you such a good debater either.
Going back to the subject of archetypes, in our culture we saw many undead created because of mortal's attempt to prevent his or her own death. Vast majority of liches are wizards trying to prevent their own demise - which ironically is exactly why many wizards were seduced by the eternal life Spider Cult offered. Similarly, many vampires also sought to keep their eternal youth by sacrificing the lifeforce of other mortals.
There's nothing there that contradicts established archetypes - what's more, there's no law that states the every work of fiction must follow them in the first place. What you want the game to follow are cliches, not archetypes. All undeads must be evil... Indeed, creators of the old universe were so clever to come up with something like that, it speaks of their effort and originality... except not really.
I see no reason not to call Ashan's Necropolis by its name, outside of the old fans' animosity. It's still a faction of undead, their leaders are still leading ghouls, skeletons and zombies.
properkheldar said:
So, the flaws of the lore from the old universe(s) can be overlooked by youthful bliss and lack of caring? While Ashan is to be disected, nitpicked, compared and ridiculed in comparison to the old universe? That sounds like nostalgia to me.
Not that Ashan will win any literary awards any time soon. But the old universe wouldnt either.
That's such a short post, yet somehow it really feels deserving of a QP to me.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:12 PM |
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Edited by cori14 at 13:19, 10 May 2015.
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Sligneris said:
Going back to the subject of archetypes, in our culture we saw many undead created because of mortal's attempt to prevent his or her own death. Vast majority of liches are wizards trying to prevent their own demise - which ironically is exactly why many wizards were seduced by the eternal life Spider Cult offered. Similarly, many vampires also sought to keep their eternal youth by sacrificing the lifeforce of other mortals.
There's nothing there that contradicts established archetypes - what's more, there's no law that states the every work of fiction must follow them in the first place. What you want the game to follow are cliches, not archetypes. All undeads must be evil... Indeed, creators of the old universe were so clever to come up with something like that, it speaks of their effort and originality... except not really.
I see no reason not to call Ashan's Necropolis by its name, outside of the old fans' animosity. It's still a faction of undead, their leaders are still leading ghouls, skeletons and zombies.
I don't say that NWC universe were original, It was in a few concepts, really It was a day to day fantasy setting with sci-fi elements(which were cool imo, not for others I get it). And overall, the unit designs weren't original, they were biblical in design and I think it's much more interesting, much more catchy then this new fantasy design, where it looks just like any other fantasy game from the last 10 or more years.
@Sligneris
cori14 said:
Edit: And even then It's not about the story, It's about the looks of the units. H5 had a good Necro roster. And if H6 Necro would have had a good unit line up I wouldn't hate on them much (and of course if h6 wouldn't be a very mediocre game - terrible in heroes measures)... But the line up were terrible imo.
PS: I know it's more about tastes than anything else now, and we really can't debate on that, I just wanted to point out my (and the old universe fans) opinion of the current thing with Heroes aesthetics in general.
and more edit
As Galaad said not too long ago, the majority of the old fans are hating on H7 because they doesn't like the game mechanics... Art design is one thing, I think we can live with that, but we doesn't really like where the new game is getting at with its mechanics, so we are hating on everything now  I know it sounds silly but this is how things are in the world.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:19 PM |
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Nothing wrong with opinion, the problem here is that everything that isn't in line with said opinion is being constantly insulted and regressed and those who don't share those opinions are treated like stupid children, who don't know any better.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 10, 2015 01:23 PM |
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cori14 said:
As Galaad said not too long ago, the majority of the old fans are hating on H7 because they doesn't like the game mechanics...
Well I was only speaking for myself here, but I can get it if people agree with me. As for the visuals, I was thinking of modding, but mechanics are the highest concern atm IMO.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:30 PM |
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Galaad said:
cori14 said:
As Galaad said not too long ago, the majority of the old fans are hating on H7 because they doesn't like the game mechanics...
Well I was only speaking for myself here, but I can get it if people agree with me. As for the visuals, I was thinking of modding, but mechanics are the highest concern atm IMO.
I know I just assumed from other people posts and from my point of view that people can live with bad looks, if the game is good then it won't get in the way of playing.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 01:30 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:32, 10 May 2015.
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There is little to no chance for us to have an influence on the mechanics, so worrying about is probably in vain. The Beta will only consist of bug fixing and balancing for the most part.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 10, 2015 01:54 PM |
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If one side is gonna bash the other and get personal, I'll start deleting en masse.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 10, 2015 02:17 PM |
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The idea of necromantic cult isn't bad (and neither new), but it's executed so poorly, very poorly, mainly by certain individuals lacking creativity put on key positions. Instead of the Azathoth Cult they wanted to make, we got some Jehovah Witnesses, they can't even shut up about spiders and Asha for one single second. Now, the whole thing about "grey moral area", yeah, being somewhere between the borders adds some realism, but Arachnopolis isn't grey, it's striped like a zebra, a ridiculous mix that no one can't take seriously, there is no grey area, there's an insane carousel, either good or evil, nothing in between, like every one is bipolar, oscillating like a diapason all the time. Grey moral doesn't mean that you do contradictory actions all time, which is exactly what the "spider cult" is doing.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 02:28 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Instead of the Azatoth Cult they wanted to make
Can you explain this? I didn't hear about it.
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted May 10, 2015 02:30 PM |
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The spider-cult is at its peak in H7, we know they will fall and things will change. Ubi introduced a sub-faction, nethermancers, led by one of the most iconic characters from the old universe, Sandro. Who also hates the spidercult, and the dragon gods of Ashan. They have separated the church from Haven, made them more medieval and less religious. We know that factions have abandoned gods, taken up new ones or no one at all. And the events after Dark Messiah is still to be discovered. They have been listening to fans and tweaked the lore.
Ashan has changed alot, and will probably keep changing. The hatred against the current necropolis is unbalanced and shortsighted. In H4 they wanted to create a nice enough society thats not totalty unlike Ashan, and they shared it with demons.
Things change.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 10, 2015 02:35 PM |
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cori14 said:
Can you explain this? I didn't hear about it.
A Lovecraftian cosmic entity
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 02:35 PM |
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properkheldar said:
The spider-cult is at its peak in H7, we know they will fall and things will change. Ubi introduced a sub-faction, nethermancers, led by one of the most iconic characters from the old universe, Sandro. Who also hates the spidercult, and the dragon gods of Ashan. They have separated the church from Haven, made them more medieval and less religious. We know that factions have abandoned gods, taken up new ones or no one at all. And the events after Dark Messiah is still to be discovered. They have been listening to fans and tweaked the lore.
Ashan has changed alot, and will probably keep changing. The hatred against the current necropolis is unbalanced and shortsighted. In H4 they wanted to create a nice enough society thats not totalty unlike Ashan, and they shared it with demons.
Things change.
Yup indeed, still waiting for that game that is set after dark messiah I am quite interested to see the results.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 02:43 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
A Lovecraftian cosmic entity
I meant that they wanted to make a cult out of this in Ashan. Thought you can tell me some old urban legends about Heroes
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 10, 2015 02:46 PM |
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properkheldar said:
The spider-cult is at its peak in H7, we know they will fall and things will change.
I thought the same about h6, but surprise, surprise, prequel. Now we got the sequel of a prequel that's still a prequel to the original story-points, what makes you believe they won't change their mind and do another prequel?
properkheldar said:
Ubi introduced a sub-faction, nethermancers, led by one of the most iconic characters from the old universe, Sandro.Who also hates the spidercult, and the dragon gods of Ashan.
Quite not properly represented in the game, more just episodic appearances, we got no playable heroes nor necropolis is based upon them. Also, they killed Sandro off-screen, the most iconic character of the nether movement.
properkheldar said:
They have separated the church from Haven, made them more medieval and less religious. We know that factions have abandoned gods, taken up new ones or no one at all.
yet, they still have a giant Elrath statue that's bigger than the whole town. Also, I saw no faction taking up a different god or being atheistic in heroes 7. Free Cities and Wizards are this way from heroes 5.
properkheldar said:
And the events after Dark Messiah is still to be discovered. They have been listening to fans and tweaked the lore.
I believe that Dark Messiah is just an escape route if the decide to h4 their way into a new heroes game
properkheldar said:
Ashan has changed alot, and will probably keep changing.
yeah, recton after recton, liches can't be skeletal anymore, even tough they were in h5 for example
properkheldar said:
The hatred against the current necropolis is unbalanced and shortsighted. In H4 they wanted to create a nice enough society thats not totalty unlike Ashan, and they shared it with demons.
Necroferno was one of the most hated choices from heroes IV, you seem to forget that. Neither was h4 extremely loved
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 10, 2015 02:51 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I thought the same about h6, but surprise, surprise, prequel. Now we got the sequel of a prequel that's still a prequel to the original story-points, what makes you believe they won't change their mind and do another prequel?
There is even a name for such a thing and it is "interquel". Just a little side note. 
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Sempai
Known Hero
Ubi is love
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posted May 10, 2015 02:53 PM |
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Quote:
The hatred against the current necropolis is unbalanced and shortsighted. In H4 they wanted to create a nice enough society thats not totalty unlike Ashan, and they shared it with demons.
I count it as pretty good argumented. The problem is that ubi-lovers don't accept arguments we provide. Welp... Tastes differ. But to call our vision as "short-sighted" is a lil bit boldly.
Ehhm... so u count H4 necroferno as a successful one or what? I can't get your thought.
P.S. Ashan is pretty fine to me but H6 was a disaster. That's why it's painful to see H6v7 with bizarre things.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
