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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 10, 2015 05:38 PM |
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Quote:
Um-uh, not really. Not in Ashan, not even in the old universe, and not in most of the fantasy.
There wasn't such thing as a fallen angel in the old universe. A fallen angel is called fallen because he fell from Heaven  In the old universe they were ancients, they could be good or evil tough, but they weren't fallen
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Sempai
Known Hero
Ubi is love
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posted May 10, 2015 05:40 PM |
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Yes, I share this vision as "grey" would be a good thing. In h6 even the story was goddamn boring with ultimate-evil inferno. Up to me every faction have its own purposes and goals. Some of them clashes with other's goals and start a conflict. Shouldn't mean that some purposes are better then another. So I really can't see the need in ultimate extrimity in this game. Hammers of Fate was pretty cool in this matter actually. Some kind of small game of thrones. 
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raenus
Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
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posted May 10, 2015 05:41 PM |
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Edited by raenus at 17:43, 10 May 2015.
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merenefere1282 said:
Sempai said:
U, guys, consider it as a good thing, having ultimately "good" and "evil" factions?
Not really. Human race is so evil. Fallen Angles even more. The fact that angles are supposed to be good doesn't mean they can't be evil or succumb to evil. I think race should not frame what is actually evil or good unless you want a classic beautiful fary tale where good finally wins the evil.
EXACTLY! Unfortunately HoMM5 and MMH6 were chock full of fairy tales where good always beats the evil.
Don't shoot me for saying this, but every faction in HoMM3 had the capacity for good and evil. They were all shades of grey.
This clear cut good and evil is something that Ubi introduced. I am not asking for more, I just want them to balance their scales with the current system.
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Creature Quest: HaltWhoGoesThere
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 10, 2015 05:46 PM |
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Quote:
Don't shoot me for saying this, but every fqction in HoMM3 had the capacity for good and evil. They were all shades of grey.
This clear cut good and evil is something that Ubi introduced. I am not asking for more, I just want them to balance their scales with the current system.
yeah, it adds realism that there are no clear boundaries between good and evil, even if in heroes 3 the alignments were a basis for sacrificial altar, evil fog/holy ground and angelic alliance, we had a share of both characters, for example we had Lord Haart, the corrupt lord from the dragon valley in Gelu's campaign and so on. In h4 we had the Gauldoth and Baron von Tarkin for example, which were opposites
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 10, 2015 05:58 PM |
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Elvin said:
I never cared about the sci fi aspects of the old universe but having only played homm and not m&m, a unit's background is irrelevant to me. Demons, aliens, does it even matter? For me a devil is a devil If someone told me that the old angels were cyborgs would that ruin my previous experience with homm? I'd just ignore it or wouldn't care. I can afford to do so because the old homm universe does not force its ideas down my throat and its creatures can be whatever I want them to be. That is why people could create lotr maps and what not back in the day. An elf is an elf, a death knight is a death knight. You use them for the role you have in mind because they cover an archetype. Sadly, new units cover the Ashan archetype only. Leaves a lot less room for ambiguity.
Amen!
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What will happen now?
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 06:04 PM |
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Stevie said:
Well, they SHOULD be inherently evil. For goodness' sake, they're freaking abominations. They go against the natural order of things and against cycle of life and death. What could possibly be more vile than that? Asha herself would turn in her cocoon had she known how they violate her creation, which in their hypocrisy they dare claim to respect. And from there on you have a totally unnecessary moral/consistency problem inside the undead faction which is laughable! They should not give a damn! They should be marching the earth trying to snuff out the flame of life. Sandro was a far better necromancer than any of those wannabes like Anastasya and Sveltana combined, reason why he was so well received.
Maurice said:
I've written it before, but for me, the distinction is pretty obvious.
Necropolis is pure Evil and about anti-life. They want to snuff out all life and drown the world in eternal undeath. Life opposes everything they stand for; they hate it with a passion, strive to let everything wither and decay. They see the weaker life forms as cattle, to be harvested and swell their ranks. They want to engulf the world in eternal darkness and actively seek to destroy it.
Arachnopolis is True Neutral and about eternal life. they don't care about life or death of others in anyway. They're purely self-centered and life is at the very core of their being, which they try to encase for all eternity. They resurrect the dead mostly because it's convenient and easy for them to do so, since they're dabbling in Necromantic powers anyway. They care little for the world around them, if it doesn't help them achieve eternal life.
Maurice said:
To me, it doesn't. Necropolis is truly evil and opposed to all life, actively using necromantic creations to replace the life they destroy. Arachnopolis is true neutral and meddling with life and death, which resurrects the dead as a matter of convenience, just like the Wizards raise golems and gargoyles.
Once again, I don't mind a true neutral faction like Arachnopolis who just happens to dabble into necromantic energies, but to me it's mislabeled when it's considered a Necropolis. It would be akin to calling the Sorceres town in H2 or Rampart in H3 a Dwarven town, just because a Dwarf happened to be in the line-up, while neither towns' philosophy is about digging in the dirt for the riches that lie below the surface.
raenus said:
Don't shoot me for saying this, but every faction in HoMM3 had the capacity for good and evil. They were all shades of grey.
This clear cut good and evil is something that Ubi introduced. I am not asking for more, I just want them to balance their scales with the current system.
Really now?  On one hand we have people complaining that Necropolis isn't pure Evil like it's 'supposed to', and now we hear that Ubisoft was the one to introduce the clear cut between Good and Evil, presence of which is praised in the older games? I mean, aren't you guys making it too convenient to criticize Ubisoft for exact opposites? It's almost as if it doesn't matter what your problem with Ubi is, it's good as long as it's a problem with Ubi. Oh wait, it is like that!
You're so desperate to come up with 'flaws', really. Swapping between the exact opposites and criticizing something for what is the most convenient for you to claim. 
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 10, 2015 06:07 PM |
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I just don't want necros goody-two shoes like they are in Ashan lel, and by your logic different people can't have different opinions?
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 10, 2015 06:18 PM |
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Sligneris said:
Really now? On one hand we have people complaining that Necropolis isn't pure Evil like it's 'supposed to', and now we hear that Ubisoft was the one to introduce the clear cut between Good and Evil? I mean, aren't you guys making it too convenient to criticize Ubisoft for exact opposites? It's almost as if it doesn't matter what your problem with Ubi is, it's good as long as it's a problem with Ubi. Oh wait, it is like that!
You're so desperate to come up with 'flaws', really. Swapping between the exact opposites and criticizing something for what is the most convenient for you to claim.
dude these types of hysterical mass accusation posts require even less effort than mine, Heroes Community is not a hive mind with one unified opinion and everyone is not out to get you and Ubisoft lol
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raenus
Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
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posted May 10, 2015 06:19 PM |
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Edited by raenus at 18:42, 10 May 2015.
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Personal tastes may differ, does that mean that seperate people can't share the same view for different reasons?
In my personal opinion a neutral Arachnopolis that you could play with any motive in mind would be fine. What we have now is NOT neutral though. The only reason I listed it as neutral earlier is because it does have people like Sandro, old Vein, and I guess Lyla. It is so heavily biased towards the spider cult though, it hurts. I mean can you honestly see someone not linked to the spider cult using spiders instead of, say ghouls or zombies?
Like it or not the spider cult has a clear motive, and direction.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 06:53 PM |
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Them trying to color code each faction is more annoying than the overused spider theme within "Necro"polis..
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted May 10, 2015 06:54 PM |
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verriker said:
dude these types of hysterical mass accusation posts require even less effort than mine, Heroes Community is not a hive mind with one unified opinion and Ubisoft is not out to get you and old time fans lol
Works pretty well in reverse.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 10, 2015 06:56 PM |
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Elvin said:
If one side is gonna bash the other and get personal, I'll start deleting en masse.
It only took 450 pages to get to this, yay!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 10, 2015 07:00 PM |
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properkheldar said:
Works pretty well in reverse.
well nah it doesn't, my thesis is that they are not competent enough to get themselves out of a brown paper bag, let alone get anybody lol
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 07:06 PM |
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properkheldar said:
verriker said:
dude these types of hysterical mass accusation posts require even less effort than mine, Heroes Community is not a hive mind with one unified opinion and Ubisoft is not out to get you and old time fans lol
Works pretty well in reverse.
No it doesn't since Ubi already turned the M&M name into garbage.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 07:07 PM |
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properkheldar said:
Works pretty well in reverse.
I don't mind Ashan people, everybody have their tastes, but to defend Ubisoft?? I can't fathom it... Ubisoft was one the most loved Publishers and Developers for me, but what they did in the last 1 year are pathetic, lying left and right, producing buggy and unoptimized games, not supporting them till they work out everything, taking people's games from uplay (ok they did give those back which were not stolen), making statements which goes against consumers and so on... I just can't understand how can somebody defend them. They don't deserve it...
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 07:46 PM |
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I think Ashan does grey pretty well. We have had plenty of Good/Evil/In Between member of all factions so far. Just that the playable ones are generally the good/less evil ones.
Ashan Necropolis motives are different to the old Necropolis ones (well, depending of the time period and who is ruling it). The results are the same though.
I dont believe that they should go "Cult of Azathoth". In first place we already have Inferno and its cultists filling the archetype nicely (tentacles, madness, mutations) and to lesser measure the Dungeon. The Necropolis has never being about insane in THAT way either, i feel.
Ultimately, generally people justify their actions,, even the utherly insane ones, since our brains were designed to do that. So i prefer the cult thing of Necropolis in that aspect.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 10, 2015 08:59 PM |
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properkheldar said:
verriker said:
and Ubisoft is not out to get you and old time fans lol
Works pretty well in reverse.
except this is actually pretty accurate
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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raenus
Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
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posted May 10, 2015 09:03 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
I think Ashan does grey pretty well. We have had plenty of Good/Evil/In Between member of all factions so far. Just that the playable ones are generally the good/less evil ones.
That might be the best way to describe why I am so opposed to this lineup and the spider cult in general.
This lineup constantly reminds me of how prolific the spider cult is, and makes it really hard to become immersed as playing as someone other than a cultist.
I guess the spider cult would be more acceptable if it was not being crammed down my throat constantly. Spider-city. Spider-banner. Asha uses all. Green eyes and ivory skin EVERYWHERE. Spider as an actual unit. Possible Spider-pult. Even the freakin Lich had Spider wings pre redesign, and it still may have.
The Danse macabre DLC campaign was admittedly pretty well done imo. They could not do the same thing without giving us void necropolis right now though.
But in the end, as you said, it comes down to personal taste.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2015 09:26 PM |
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I understand, but i dont mind it. As i see it, regardless your character personality, he lives in a period with those aesthetics, regardless if he likes/agrees with that philosophy.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 11, 2015 12:30 AM |
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Sligneris said:
Really now? On one hand we have people complaining that Necropolis isn't pure Evil like it's 'supposed to', and now we hear that Ubisoft was the one to introduce the clear cut between Good and Evil, presence of which is praised in the older games? I mean, aren't you guys making it too convenient to criticize Ubisoft for exact opposites? It's almost as if it doesn't matter what your problem with Ubi is, it's good as long as it's a problem with Ubi. Oh wait, it is like that!
You're so desperate to come up with 'flaws', really. Swapping between the exact opposites and criticizing something for what is the most convenient for you to claim.
So you throw two opposing opinions by different people together and then invalidate them based on that? What nonsense is that?
As it is, I personally see the H3 factions pretty hard-locked in their alignment. Deviations from it were story-driven for the most part - which is where they should belong. In Ashan, it's all a big mellow grey mass where only Inferno is truly evil.
And the reason I'm not picking apart the lore of older games is because we're not discussing older games - we're discussing H7. Referring to the good stuff from older games makes sense to point out the flaws in H7. Referring to the bad stuff from older games makes no sense at all, as if that somehow validates the bad stuff in the current game under development.
So, is that what people like to hear from someone like me, who's been harping on some of Ashan's elements? Here you have it: the older games in the series had flaws too, some pretty bad ones. But once again, that's besides the point, we're discussing H7 here.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
