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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 12:44 AM |
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 12:51 AM |
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Well, what really struck me is that while your preferences are supposedly opposite, you still put it in the "This stuff used to be [right], but then Ashan came and got it [wrong]" format... While your 'difference of opinions' is literally just swapping around what you list under [right] or [wrong].
I mean, it's really funny that you guys agree that Ashan got something wrong, but you can't even make a consistent statement about it. One of you guys says that Ashan introduced it and then refer to it as a flaw, while the other one says that Ashan actually got rid of it and complains about it.
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raenus
Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
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posted May 11, 2015 01:34 AM |
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Edited by raenus at 01:38, 11 May 2015.
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Sligneris said:
Well, what really struck me is that while your preferences are supposedly opposite, you still put it in the "This stuff used to be [right], but then Ashan came and got it [wrong]" format... While your 'difference of opinions' is literally just swapping around what you list under [right] or [wrong].
I mean, it's really funny that you guys agree that Ashan got something wrong, but you can't even make a consistent statement about it. One of you guys says that Ashan introduced it and then refer to it as a flaw, while the other one says that Ashan actually got rid of it and complains about it.
You do realise that something can be wrong for multiple reasons, right?
If anything the fact that there are multiple different views on where it went wrong should say that there IS something wrong.
I am fully aware that the old games had certain shortcomings when it came to the story, fudge it, they were pretty bad.
But this (in my personal opinion, because I am ONE person and can not speak for others) is just as bad, if not worse. However Maurice has a really good point here. We are discussing MMH7 AND ONLY MMH7. The faults of past games should have no bearing on this game. A good sequal should build on the backs of previous games, improving the good and changing the bad.
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Creature Quest: HaltWhoGoesThere
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 01:43 AM |
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Raenus said:
You do realise that something can be wrong for multiple reasons, right?
For multiple reasons - yes.
For contradictory reasons - no.
"It used to be black and white, now it's grey."
"It used to be grey, now it's black and white."
I'm sorry, but if that's the case, just what is it that is 'wrong'? Tell me, how should I interpret these statements and how do inconsistent opinions supposedly serve as proof?
Raenus said:
We are discussing MMH7 AND ONLY MMH7. The faults of past games should have no bearing on this game. A good sequal should build on the backs of previous games, improving the good and changing the bad.
There's one post that I believe covers it:
properkheldar said:
So, the flaws of the lore from the old universe(s) can be overlooked by youthful bliss and lack of caring? While Ashan is to be disected, nitpicked, compared and ridiculed in comparison to the old universe? That sounds like nostalgia to me.
Not that Ashan will win any literary awards any time soon. But the old universe wouldnt either.
You do keep saying that flaws of the past games are irrelevant, but while you do "acknowledge" them, how come I still see it put on a pedestal and instead of "this thing about Ashan should be improved", I keep seeing "Ashan sucks, Erwan sucks, spiders suck, go back to JVC and NWC"?
Flaws of the older games are not irrelevant to Heroes VII - especially if some of them were fixed in Heroes VII.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 11, 2015 01:53 AM |
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Sligernis, you got all due respect my friend, but what you're doing is the very definition of a straw man fallacy lol,
word to the wise, you can't have a meaningful debate by firing challenges in all random directions as if every single person you disagree with has the same party line, choose a specific person whose ideas you want to counter (such as Erwin, for the sake of argument) and go from there lol
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 01:58 AM |
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I have to agree that it's hard for me to call that a meaningful debate, Vekirrer. Mostly because those contradictory claims actually got me pretty much confused and part of my point is that I no longer know how to react to that...
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 03:13 AM |
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The feeling of deja vu this "debate" gives is so funny and boring at the same time. Just like the fact that the user above hasnt learned to not answer to the carnates of blindness.
Can the Dungeon just come? I dont even care a lot about the other 5 races in comparison.
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raenus
Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
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posted May 11, 2015 03:21 AM |
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Edited by raenus at 03:54, 11 May 2015.
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I have never seen anyone say that they want black and white factions. You keep insisting that the current Necro is neutral, when the fact is that the current lineup sets it FIRMLY into being part of the spider cult, which is not neutral. Most people I see just want to be able to play the evil side of Necro, which is currently really hard to do since it is buried in SO MUCH FREAKIN SPIDER SNOW. The only way you could possibly justify calling Necro "grey" is if you include Sandro, old Vein, and possibly Lyla. But you can not play as a non member of the cult right now because THERE IS A SPIDER AS A UNIT, a baby namtaru in fact, the town has SPIDER LEGS, the banner is A SPIDER, even the magic hero class has a spider staff and spider legs on his back. Plus every Necro hero we have had the chance to know has been a goody goody two shoes (other than Sandro who has been labeled as a traitor and exile).
The old games had many flaws including some that were down-right terrible one of these was the lore. There is no way that you will ever see me defending the old lore.
I said the old stuff was just as bad as the current stuff.
The lore of Ashan is more cohesive and better thought out than the old games in my opinion. Though the implementation is worse.
However the fact that the old snow was bad does not justify bad snow here.
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Creature Quest: HaltWhoGoesThere
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 11, 2015 09:42 AM |
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Sligneris said:
I have to agree that it's hard for me to call that a meaningful debate, Vekirrer. Mostly because those contradictory claims actually got me pretty much confused and part of my point is that I no longer know how to react to that...
That's because different people make those contradictory claims. You throw it on one heap as if all those people are blended into one person and then can't make heads or tails of the various arguments anymore. Like Verriker says, keep the people with their arguments isolated from one another and tackle the ones you disagree with  .
A group is made up of individuals, but you can't get the overall characteristics of a group based on any single individual, just as well as that you can't get the characteristics of any single individual by looking at the group as a whole.
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 09:58 AM |
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When there are references to older games it is fine cause it is a way to show weaknesses or possible problems with M&M: Heroes 7
Ok I accept this point
But why references to older games or just talking about older games and theri flaws are bad and meaningless and have nth to do with M&M: Hereos 7? That is what I not only not understand but also what is weird cause:
1) Games like hoMM 3 or HoMm 5 or others are mentioned as examples and prized as flawless models- but often their quality and valors are exxagerated. Often they suffer from other problems or just the same or similar errors but somehow those are skipped- exaples are story and many models. People complain about M&M: Heroes 7 and I do it myself but older M&M games have so many plot holes or ugly arts that reffering all the time as far superior I find a bit not fair
So talking about those games and showing their flaws I treat as defending M&M: Heroes 7 or just as a response to some arguments
2) Hard not to talk about games from the same franchise when it is important because of lore and mechanics, units, ideas and many more... Besides, it is hard to discuss about Heroes game without making references and comparing to similar titles- so references to older titles is must
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 11, 2015 11:23 AM |
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JotunLogi said:
So talking about those games and showing their flaws I treat as defending M&M: Heroes 7 or just as a response to some arguments
But this is counter-productive. It means you're distracting from the actual issue (a flaw in the current game) because you're pointing out a flaw in a previous game. I hope we can agree that the main issue is to solve as many flaws and bugs in the current game .
I agree with you with regards to the rose-tinted glasses. Older games also had loads of problems and issues. But those won't get changed anymore, while we can still influence the current game as it's being developed.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 11, 2015 11:40 AM |
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Maurice said:
we can still influence the current game as it's being developed.
I don't believe that anymore. Yes, maybe we can get them to tone down the yellow in Haven TS, but influence the game as how it will play? No way.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 11, 2015 11:57 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 11:57, 11 May 2015.
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Galaad said:
I don't believe that anymore. Yes, maybe we can get them to tone down the yellow in Haven TS, but influence the game as how it will play? No way.
Well, I doubt we can change something like the skillwheel, but who knows what they can do with an expansion. The foundation is there, the execution is flawed. And if not for this title, then perhaps the next one?
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 12:35 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 12:52, 11 May 2015.
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i love how you guys(galaad?) ignore the things you see, just because it doesnt suit you.
h7 has a unique system based on classes. i told this but no-one argues on this? lol.
i done this countless times on SC but let me do it again, this time with imaginary numbers, just to make it even more clear then ever:
it was %90 skillwheel %10 hero class before in heroes games, but now its %50-%50 in h7, due to its original formula. this means skillwheel doesnt have to be super uber awesome rich, gameplay can still be very enjoyable.
and before you began repating yourselves, no this isnt breaking core of heroes. its just an attempt to make RPG elements better, two birds in one stone if they succeed at implementing it.
its like, you guys played it already, and now commenting on it, it makes me laugh, seriously you guys running your credits in my eyes. why pretending not seeing it? or do you realy unable to see?
im not even talking about this "we dont have effect on developement" thing, its downright false, talked before many times and we all been there once, voting and arguing with devs. do i really have to list the things got changed?
btw, there are many offrecord things. maybe you missed but 2 of my feedback wishes allready come through. one of them is, an ability in diplomacy branch now. maybe because they heard me or maybe its just coincidence but the thing is there are lot of good things if you want to see them.
pff.. this whole raging rotten sandro movement flame makes me unhappy. it became such a repetetive, blind thing... even on HC, same boring closed mind attitude.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 12:52 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 12:53, 11 May 2015.
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GenyaArikado said:
The feeling of deja vu this "debate" gives is so funny and boring at the same time. Just like the fact that the user above hasnt learned to not answer to the carnates of blindness.
Can the Dungeon just come? I dont even care a lot about the other 5 races in comparison.
Oh didn't you hear? They have changed Dungeon, it is now a faction of Ants, and Ant Queen as champion tier unit that has an ability to produce other Ants...
Yeah, I can't wait to see them either!
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 11, 2015 01:14 PM |
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cleglaw said:
i love how you guys(galaad?) ignore the things you see, just because it doesnt suit you.
Doesn't that work both ways, though? Both sides of the fence seem to be selective about what they see and discuss.
Quote:
h7 has a unique system based on classes. i told this but no-one argues on this? lol.
Why should this be argued? It's a fact, a given.
Quote:
it was %90 skillwheel %10 hero class before in heroes games, but now its %50-%50 in h7, due to its original formula. this means skillwheel doesnt have to be super uber awesome rich, gameplay can still be very enjoyable.
I underlined the important part in your statement. It can be enjoyable. However, that's an assumption, something we don't know until we've played the game and experienced it. It's new so it's hard to make a good guesstimate on how this will work out in practice. Some people are satisfied enough to wait and see. Others are drawing upon their experiences in previous titles and see that rather than a free-format skillup tree we get a double restriction in place: first already because each hero has a pre-defined set of skills available and second because these skills also have pre-defined limitations. They see these restrictions as a cage. You say it's a golden cage which may have enough room for everyone to be satisfied but a golden cage is a cage nonetheless.
Couple that with the various suggestions that have been made to improve the H5 skillwheel concept, which went in a completely different direction, it's understandable that those people raise alarms because they see this aspect of the game going down the drain.
The people who are content enough to sit and wait are agitated by this alarmist composure, I guess. However, just sitting back and letting it roll over us means it's too late to make fundamental changes to it. The earlier in development such changes are considered and implemented, the easier and likely it is.
Quote:
its just an attempt to make RPG elements better, two birds in one stone if they succeed at implementing it.
And that's a very big "if", especially considering what we know now and the past track record of UbiSoft on such fundamental changes.
Quote:
its like, you guys played it already, and now commenting on it, it makes me laugh, seriously you guys running your credits in my eyes.
Past experience is usually enough to make a judged assumption about where it's headed - and those people obviously don't like the conclusion they're drawing. Again, it's very hard to change things about the game once it has been released; if it's adressed while still under development, changes to alleviate the concerns are much easier to implement.
Quote:
im not even talking about this "we dont have effect on developement" thing, its downright false, talked before many times and we all been there once, voting and arguing with devs. do i really have to list the things got changed?
Sure, we got a few things changed here and there. I won't remind you that the #GURS turned out to be a fallacy, though, seeing as a random system doesn't work quite well within the limitations of the skillwheel they revealed lately. The things that did get changed, though, were things that we addressed earlier in development, when those items were revealed. Core mechanics like the skillwheel has been released too late to the public to leave time for concerns and fixes for those concerns (case in point with the random system).
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 02:22 PM |
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I am totally with cleglaw on this. The skill system has a lot of potential and have to say that I really like it, from what I've seen so far.
And the people that don't like it can always ignore it and just play with the Random option, which will give you to choose from 2 random abilities on leveling up and the game will be almost like H3.
So like it or not - you can can always play with random abilities turned on or off. And the abilities for me are the best in Heroes games ever!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 11, 2015 03:09 PM |
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ninjata12 said:
And the people that don't like it can always ignore it and just play with the Random option, which will give you to choose from 2 random abilities on leveling up and the game will be almost like H3.
I explained this a few times and it seems that I need to do it next time. Random skill system will be impossible to use because of lack of limitation in ability number, meaning that after picking x abilities from skill the other won't be locked. This would cause thst with every skill unlocked number of possible abilities to pick would increase dramatically, hence after picking a few skills you won't have virtually any chance to choose a skill you want. This sysyem is random but way too random to be a sensible choice.
Besides that and the magic system that I feel could have been better, I am waiting impatiently to play the game. I feel that this game will be good and unless there would be a change in the dev team, I feel that after expansions we will have a game that will be able to surpass Heroes V.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 11, 2015 03:26 PM |
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I would really liketo know more about map objectives on custom maps, Win and Lose conditions and in-game queste.
I feel this particular field of the game has beenn devolving since H2
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Genyaarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted May 11, 2015 03:33 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
GenyaArikado said:
The feeling of deja vu this "debate" gives is so funny and boring at the same time. Just like the fact that the user above hasnt learned to not answer to the carnates of blindness.
Can the Dungeon just come? I dont even care a lot about the other 5 races in comparison.
Oh didn't you hear? They have changed Dungeon, it is now a faction of Ants, and Ant Queen as champion tier unit that has an ability to produce other Ants...
Yeah, I can't wait to see them either!
i have a thing for hives and breeder insect queens so actually i wouldnt mind.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
