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Genyaarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 05:46 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
It's not the amount of "copies" you have, it's how you use them.
NWC made something unique and interesting with their setting and creatures. Ubisoft just reuses old and tired clichés.
illustrate.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 13, 2015 07:58 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 20:27, 13 Jun 2015.
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Genyaarikado said:
illustrate.
Dungeon.
Even if NWC borrowed heavily from mythology and other sources (Beholders, minos, harpies etc.) the "nation" in which they resided was completely of their own making. City-states where warlocks and overlords fought for supremacy using creatures, beasts and armies of their own creation.
Ubi dungeon is the standard fantasy cliché dark elf-nation with some myth units thrown in because they had to. They've gotten a bit more unique with h6 but they're still just every other dark elf cliché around. They just got eyes all over their clothes now.
Fortress
Swamp kingdom of lizardmen and gnolls (once again a D&D creature) with a focus on taming and dominating what beasts live around their swamp homes and shamanistic magic. Also with a hint of mayan.
Ubi stronghold is every dwarf cliché in the book except they worship dragons instead of killing them.
Necropolis Ubi is being somewhat original with, I'll give them that. To bad it's completely nonsensical with vampires aging backwards and everyone having a spike-and-green-fetish. Well, they would be original except it's warcraft design this time through and through. At least NWC "borrowed" from outside the medium in this case even if they weren't super original in this case.
Haven
NWC had a standard medieval human kingdom with knights and heraldic beasts and light-gray morality.
Ubi has a standard medieval human kingdom with knights and heraldic beasts with zebra morality and a light-fetish. Do adore the Justicars though.
Sylvan
NWC had a kingdom residing in a forest and a symbiotic relation with the beasts (and spirits?) of said forest. They were still very much separated with rampart having normal-esque cities/villages. Dwarves, elves, men and centaurs lived in harmony with nature but wasn't one with it and taming creatures was very much present.
Ubi copied every wood elf cliché around. They even live in trees now and sniff flowers.
Even if the pieces aren't original, the puzzle was.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Genyaarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 09:24 PM |
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Granted, H5 factions did have several cliches, we all know that. But most of the stuff you call cliche was already there on the NWC era, it just hadnt been fleshed out because humans were the main races of pretty much every town and regardless the Ashan factions are drifting away from their H5 selves.
The dwarves were already mine dwelling vikings and the elves were already tree house living hippies. The mayan and "humanoid creature" aspects went to the orcs/stronghold while the "Creatures created with magic" went to the Academy. The Worshipping aspects may have not been outright shown in Haven/Castle but it was definitely there by having monks as creatures and "cleric" as a class (without mentioning that almost all of the Ashan races are heavy worshippers so it's not like it's a phenomenon relegated to haven). The Ashan and WC necropoli drew themes from the same source (WH necropolis) and both made different stuff with them.
The only faction were they didnt really innovate at all was the dark elven dungeon. But then again, that's how the dark elves work the best.
On top of that, most of the Ashan factions already have more flavours than their respective Enroth era versions had and plot wise H5 and 6 are only second to H4.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 13, 2015 09:31 PM |
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Just a reminder to everyone, profanity isn't tolerated and the presence of one asterisk is not enough to hide a violation.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 09:38 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 21:40, 13 Jun 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
Dungeon.
Even if NWC borrowed heavily from mythology and other sources (Beholders, minos, harpies etc.) the "nation" in which they resided was completely of their own making. City-states where warlocks and overlords fought for supremacy using creatures, beasts and armies of their own creation.
Ubi dungeon is the standard fantasy cliché dark elf-nation with some myth units thrown in because they had to. They've gotten a bit more unique with h6 but they're still just every other dark elf cliché around. They just got eyes all over their clothes now.
25 years ago warlocks were "in" and everyone wanted to be one, and yeah elves are "in" now in the 2000s. so we had to have dark ones.
kiryu133 said:
Fortress
Swamp kingdom of lizardmen and gnolls (once again a D&D creature) with a focus on taming and dominating what beasts live around their swamp homes and shamanistic magic. Also with a hint of mayan.
Ubi stronghold is every dwarf cliché in the book except they worship dragons instead of killing them.
they just kept the same name, and a dwarf in the foretress makes more sense. and in 1/4 of century later dwarves are thing if you haven't noticed. and have been redone zillion times other games before.
swamp kingdom makes no sense being called foretress and back then D&D was popular(sort of)
kiryu133 said:
Necropolis Ubi is being somewhat original with, I'll give them that. To bad it's completely nonsensical with vampires aging backwards and everyone having a spike-and-green-fetish. Well, they would be original except it's warcraft design this time through and through. At least NWC "borrowed" from outside the medium in this case even if they weren't super original in this case.
so now the "original" thing does not make sense but a gorgon(not even the name is right/D&D silliness) living in a swamp alongside a lizardman who can actually hold and shoot with a bow makes sense yeah...
at least ubi's necropolis is more than a one sided cliche (which is given a pass for some reason..) and with more room to give you smth different in the future. and yeah if warcraft was hot back then, a lot of games,including the oh-so-holly heroes 3 would have borrowed a lot.
kiryu133 said:
Haven
NWC had a standard medieval human kingdom with knights and heraldic beasts and light-gray morality.
Ubi has a standard medieval human kingdom with knights and heraldic beasts with zebra morality and a light-fetish. Do adore the Justicars though.
so the one-sided thing here which is the "light fetish" is not convicing you, but you loved the "kill kill kill lets take over the world" necropolis! hmm intereting...
kiryu133 said:
Sylvan
NWC had a kingdom residing in a forest and a symbiotic relation with the beasts (and spirits?) of said forest. They were still very much separated with rampart having normal-esque cities/villages. Dwarves, elves, men and centaurs lived in harmony with nature but wasn't one with it and taming creatures was very much present.
Ubi copied every wood elf cliché around. They even live in trees now and sniff flowers.
back then all the magical creatures were living together because there wasn't enough lore to separate them. the fact that dwarves lived alongside elves and pegassi humans and centaurs shows exactly that. and makes no sense whatsoever. an ugly hodge-podge. gurl please.
25 years later elves are way popular and have been redone zillion times. it's bound to see some simliar stuff. the fact that this time elves are kind of the "balkans" of ashan, not the "irish", feels refreshing.I'm ready for less majestic elves and more nomadic ones.
kiryu133 said:
Even if the pieces aren't original, the puzzle was.
and of course you left out inferno! hahahahah! I wonder why... I don't even need to write it. I hope sometime you understand the concept of time, trends, etc. 25 years earlier even shaving was unpopular and look at us now. it's not so bad -.-
in 25 years the trends will change and the companies will follow them and so on. as they did in the past. lets not be unfair and blinded by nostalgia.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 13, 2015 09:47 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
25 years ago warlocks were "in" and everyone wanted to be one, and yeah elves are "in" now in the 2000s. so we had to have dark ones.
ChrisD1 said:
25 years later elves are way popular and have been redone zillion times.
ChrisD1 said:
25 years earlier even shaving was unpopular and look at us now. it's not so bad -.-
ChrisD1 said:
in 25 years the trends will change and the companies will follow them and so on.
uh, dude, ChrisD1, Heroes 1 and Enroth were not created 25 years ago lol
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 09:49 PM |
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Genyaarikado said:
On top of that, most of the Ashan factions already have more flavours than their respective Enroth era versions had and plot wise H5 and 6 are only second to H4.
lol nah
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Genyaarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 09:54 PM |
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If you find the evil brother/good brother plot better, be my guest
verriker said:
uh, dude, ChrisD1, Heroes 1 and Enroth were not created 25 years ago lol
i think he means the M&M franchise (1986). Granted that's 29 but w.e. Heroes is 20 years old tho.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 09:56 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 21:57, 13 Jun 2015.
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verriker said:
uh, dude, ChrisD1, Heroes 1 and Enroth were not created 25 years ago lol
yeah it was yesterday in 1995, i forgot!! because 20 years and 25 years is so far apart.. "lol"
Datapack said:
Genyaarikado said:
On top of that, most of the Ashan factions already have more flavours than their respective Enroth era versions had and plot wise H5 and 6 are only second to H4.
lol nah
WOW! the level of reason with this one is strong! enough enroth heroes community for today, we all know where this will end! bye bye troll-lols 
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 13, 2015 09:58 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
verriker said:
uh, dude, ChrisD1, Heroes 1 and Enroth were not created 25 years ago lol
yeah it was yesterday in 1995, i forgot!! because 20 years and 25 years is so far apart.. "lol"
Of course, heroes 6 and heroes 7 are created at a 5 years distance and they are exactly the same. You are right, it makes so much sense 
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Genyaarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 10:05 PM |
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resorting to semantics. lmao, literally on Sarah Palin level
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 13, 2015 10:09 PM |
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anyway I think this silly contrived pissing contest of "Enroth had this problem so it is fine if Ashan makes it even worse" has gone on too long even for my taste, and I have no taste lol
everyone is just throwing around fallacies and exposing their lack of knowledge now, maybe if I quote the Maurice post again it will explain that the focus should be on the plagiarism problems Ashan has,
Maurice said:
But this is counter-productive. It means you're distracting from the actual issue (a flaw in the current game) because you're pointing out a flaw in a previous game. I hope we can agree that the main issue is to solve as many flaws and bugs in the current game  .
I agree with you with regards to the rose-tinted glasses. Older games also had loads of problems and issues. But those won't get changed anymore, while we can still influence the current game as it's being developed.
Referring to the good stuff from older games makes sense to point out the flaws in H7. Referring to the bad stuff from older games makes no sense at all, as if that somehow validates the bad stuff in the current game under development.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 10:13 PM |
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While I do think the comparisons people make with most Ashan factions tend to be on the overblown side... wooooooooooooooooow I didn't realize how on-the-nose the Dungeon / Warhammer Dark Elves comparison has been. 
(Don't get me wrong, I still like Ashan's Dungeon, but wooooooooow the wholesale exporting)
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 13, 2015 10:21 PM |
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Well, they got sued by Games Workshop for this
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted June 13, 2015 10:30 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Well, they got sued by Games Workshop for this
Were they? I thought they ony got threatend with a lawsuit.
Kimarous said:
I didn't realize how on-the-nose the Dungeon / Warhammer Dark Elves comparison has been.
Except that WH Darkelfs are waymore interesting.
BTW all this blaming of stealing could easily been avoided if Ubi kept using units of mythological and folklore origin. The token elf/dwarf/whatever would bother noone. The Lamassu and Simourg are example of these... all the rest, well no point arguing about those.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 13, 2015 10:42 PM |
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Genyaarikado said:
Granted, H5 factions did have several cliches, we all know that. But most of the stuff you call cliche was already there on the NWC era, it just hadnt been fleshed out because humans were the main races of pretty much every town and regardless the Ashan factions are drifting away from their H5 selves.
The dwarves were already mine dwelling vikings and the elves were already tree house living hippies. The mayan and "humanoid creature" aspects went to the orcs/stronghold while the "Creatures created with magic" went to the Academy. The Worshipping aspects may have not been outright shown in Haven/Castle but it was definitely there by having monks as creatures and "cleric" as a class (without mentioning that almost all of the Ashan races are heavy worshippers so it's not like it's a phenomenon relegated to haven). The Ashan and WC necropoli drew themes from the same source (WH necropolis) and both made different stuff with them.
The only faction were they didnt really innovate at all was the dark elven dungeon. But then again, that's how the dark elves work the best.
On top of that, most of the Ashan factions already have more flavours than their respective Enroth era versions had and plot wise H5 and 6 are only second to H4.
H5 rampart, sorry, "sylvan", is all about the elves. elves, elves, elves. Nothing else matters. It's simply about getting as many recognisably "elvish" things in as possible and calling it a day. H3 rampart was a normal town that happened to be in a forest, more or less. Elves, dwarves and centaurs were like any people around, just a bit more prone to taking a forest stroll. The town was also of a japanese design, if lightly (which is another thing: nwc era heroes had hints of cultural influences. They never went all out).
H4 did have treehouse living elves, however H4 also went very, very heavy with thematic factions, even having rampart being called "nature". Everything in h4 Nature was a force of, well, nature. Elves included. It was a town more about the concept of seasons, rebirth and freedom and whatever elvish things they put in took second place or was there to bring forth these concepts. Had it been a town of humans they would still live in trees. pretty sure there were humans in the nature kingdom.
Ubi has "sylvan" be the theme of elves. only elves because elves are elves and if elves aren't elves elves can't elf and if elves can no longer elf they can't be elves since elves has to elf in order to be elves. elves.
Haven was certainly a religious town but religion was never important or forced any designs. What they worshipped was never important or even told explicitly in the heroes games (Unless i'm wrong?). We don't know what they worship or if it even exist. Neither do they. Ubi has the good old "every religion is true and both you and them know it." no place for interpretation which leads to an incredibly forced iconography. An absolute religion that is also known to be fact by both players and world lacks room for exploration for those who wants to know and is annoying for those who don't care.
I can see ubi necro being more appealing than a classic movie monster costume party, but the obnoxious designs and completely nonsensical "explanations" (stop forcing lore on everything!) quickly stops any enjoyment of it. They could do something interesting but they decided to go green-neon porcupine route and Warcraft wank-fest so snow that. Still, make more subdued designs, skip WC bullsnow and create some interesting morality (right now it's once again just zebras everywhere) and Necro could be pretty cool.
The problem with the dark elf faction is that there are dark elves. Dark elves are by definition Cliché and overdone. If you make a product with dark elves you are telling everyone you're completely out of ideas and lack originality. See paragraph 3 but replace "elf and Elves" with "dark elf and dark elves". Still true, except they got eyes now.
ChrisD1 said:
and of course you left out inferno! hahahahah! I wonder why... I don't even need to write it.
I don't think I've seen someone ever miss my point by this much, but i will answer this:
Nwc inferno had aliens(ALIENS!) looking like traditional christian demons crash land on the planet creating a hellish landscape and now seek to conquer this world like they have so many others. They (apparently) reproduce similar to an insect hive with a queen being mother to all of them.
Ubi has "chaotoc" demons.
I might add that H4 did "chaos" as a concept a billion times better. H4 for did town concept themes better than anyone.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 10:42 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
WOW! the level of reason with this one is strong!
The only thing that matters is my opinion
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 13, 2015 10:45 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
H4 for did town concept themes better than anyone.
Let's not include Infernopolis there 
I do pretty much fully agree on the rest though ^^
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 13, 2015 10:46 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Let's not include Infernopolis there
I do pretty much fully agree on the rest though ^^
as a concept for "death" it was pretty awesome even if the town/lineup itself wasn't.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted June 13, 2015 10:49 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Let's not include Infernopolis there
Welp, it is still better than what H6 and 7 has to offer.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
