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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 02:10 PM |
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H2 TS are pretty snow, i wouldnt use them as example. However i think they were kinda inspired by them.
So far i wouldnt call any of H6 better than the ones in H7. For the faulty perspective haven may still have (and huge stairs and dragon) its still wonderful compared to the hot leaning village mess of H6.
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted June 30, 2015 02:22 PM |
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The problem with Heroes VII TS in my opinion is that they lack coherence with the rest of the game. While the rest of the game maintains a very realistic and a bit dark theme to their units and general 3D modeling, the TS remind something that came out of Heroes Kingdoms or Heroes Online. The cartoonish look (please, i emphasize the look and not the colors) does not tie too much with the rest of the game. This is point number 1.
The second point is structure position. Those are meant to be Towns but they don't look like it. They don't offer much to make the user believe that they are inhabitable. There are no true roads connecting each building. Some buildings that could be made made as expansions of another are not. There are not enough civilian houses, and in general, the feel is not that of a town but rather or a hastily build camp or outpost.
The Third point is scale. The buildings are weird in their size and also in their shape (i must say that some and not all are under this rule). I must again point out here roads that lead to no where and also buildings that face the wrong way or even walls for the towns that are either too small, do not protect the town and so on.
It is not nostalgia about Heroes III that drives this conversation, rather it is the quality of the TS years before today that were far fewer resources and still, they maintained quality that we do not see today
As such, it seems that they do the townscreens out of necessity alone and not because they strive for quality. It's not only the detail and the beauty of the final image that counts but also the coherency with the rest of the game.
In Heroes II and III, there was no problem with scale, depth or general feeling that what you see is a true town. From Heroes IV and on, excluding Heroes V, no such quality exists.
Thank you.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 02:23 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 14:28, 30 Jun 2015.
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Stevie said:
Let's be clear here, if you can't tell a cliff in a forest then the problem lies with you and not the town. And no, it was not bland at all. Like seriously, can you people embarrass yourselves even more with these laughable attempts at discrediting Heroes 3?
@Hermes, will safely ignore all your posts from now on due to their abysmal quality. No offense.
oh stevie.. i meant sure there was a cliff somewhere there and it was visible. was it a dragon cliff? who knows!!!??? it was part of the scenery and not noticeable at all! no one is trying to discredit heroes 3. it has its faults too and in that case the townscreens were not THAT great.i too remember when heroes 3 were out, and i hold dear other things, that i understand that have to do with my feelings when playing the game back then(nostalgia). i don't bring those things to the table.
if you think that by today's standards the old townscreens can even compare with the ones we have now, you are the one who is embarassing himself.
and by today's standards we could have awesome 3D townsreens yeah. we don't.too bad. yet, lets not try to bring pixels and fossils into this.
even if you don't like 3D super mario it still looks best from the 2D we used to play as kids and had loads of fun when times were simpler.
I'll say again that current townscreens show your city from afar. they show the walls too that's why they are not that good. they have to be zoomed out. that's the problem. if we were shown the inside of the city, things would be more detailed and different. it is that simple.
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The_Green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 02:30 PM |
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Heroes 5 townscreens were so bad, but they were in 3D and animated so people drueled over them...
Only in the beginning were townscreens any good, when they actually had a castle to look at. Now we get a mess of buildings surrounded by a wall at weird angles.
and lol at the ubi-fanboys calling h3 screens garbage. I guess when standards are set so low you can't even see the good stuff anymore 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 02:43 PM |
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The_Green_drag said:
Heroes 5 townscreens were so bad, but they were in 3D and animated so people drueled over them...
Only in the beginning were townscreens any good, when they actually had a castle to look at. Now we get a mess of buildings surrounded by a wall at weird angles.
and lol at the ubi-fanboys calling h3 screens garbage. I guess when standards are set so low you can't even see the good stuff anymore
for the zillionth time:
not everyone who doesn't feel impressed anymore by heroes 3, is an ubi fanboy! how am i supposed to stay civil towards you. please tell me. i'm actually asking.
heroes 3 in the visual department is smth outdated and old. the concepts, the lore, everything. the worst game right now(whatever that is) looks better than heroes 3 solely because of the graphics.
i repeat again,gameplay is not being taken into account.
even you see the problem here. mess of buildings surrounded by a wall. we do not get to see the inside of the city!! that's the problem!
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 02:50 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
the worst game right now(whatever that is) looks better than heroes 3 solely because of the graphics.
Lol.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 02:53 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:55, 30 Jun 2015.
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ChrisD1 said:
oh stevie.. i meant sure there was a cliff somewhere there and it was visible. was it a dragon cliff? who knows!!!??? it was part of the scenery and not noticeable at all! no one is trying to discredit heroes 3.
Bollocks. It was the only cliff in the town, its brown color contrasting with the green scenery, so it was entirely noticeable. It even had dragons playing around it, several of them, so there was no question that it was indeed the dragon building, making your "was it a dragon cliff? who knows!!?~~" inquiry look even more sillier that it already was. Even more, as some people said before, you even had the picture on the build screen and the construction even highlighted after you've built it. So no, there was no room for mistaking the building for anything else than what it was. And as such, when you see faults with good design when they are not there, you are indeed discrediting Heroes 3. Granted it may have had others, but this is undoubtedly not one of them.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 30, 2015 03:02 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:06, 30 Jun 2015.
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There's a surprising lack of screenshots of a fully build Rampart town on the internet and because I am at work, I cannot fabricate one of my own. I found the following image, though:
The top-right corner is completely taken up by the Dragon Cliffs, which is even further animated by miniature (due to distance) Dragons flying around it.
Yes, graphically you wouldn't be able to release a game these days that shows graphics like these, but we're talking about the concept and building layout here. Personally, I also fully believe that 2D works better for a townscreen than 3D.
Edit: And looking specifically at the Rampart screen, I would have chosen to make at least two alterations:
- I would have integrated the Mystic Pond (bottom right) with the waterfall of the Pegasi;
- I would have integrated the Dendroid dwelling with the Unicorn Glade;
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 03:03 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
for the zillionth time:
not everyone who doesn't feel impressed anymore by heroes 3, is an ubi fanboy! how am i supposed to stay civil towards you. please tell me. i'm actually asking.
Sounds like a personal problem?
ChrisD1 said:
heroes 3 in the visual department is smth outdated and old. the concepts, the lore, everything. the worst game right now(whatever that is) looks better than heroes 3 solely because of the graphics.
We're still talking about the Ts right? They look more realistic and serious than anything we have seen in H4~H7.
How much does something have to age when you just deem it outdated, and old. 5 Year mark? 10? 15? Just because something is newer doesn't make it better. I guess H4 had better TS than H3 in your eyes? 
ChrisD1 said:
i repeat again,gameplay is not being taken into account.
even you see the problem here. mess of buildings surrounded by a wall. we do not get to see the inside of the city!! that's the problem!
Yes, we both see the problem here, a bunch of buildings meshed together. At a quick glance the townscreens are nice as a whole, but when you look at the individual buildings it looks ridiculous.
So what are we discussing here?
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 03:04 PM |
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Edited by Hermes at 15:07, 30 Jun 2015.
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Stevie said:
Let's be clear here, if you can't tell a cliff in a forest then the problem lies with you and not the town. And no, it was not bland at all. Like seriously, can you people embarrass yourselves even more with these laughable attempts at discrediting Heroes 3?
@Hermes, will safely ignore all your posts from now on due to their abysmal quality. No offense.
Steve you can do whatever you please. You really are nobody to me and I couldn't care less one way or another.
Besides, I also skim read most of your posts as vast majority of them is full of nostalgia and narcissism, and it only got worse since you got invited to that community event.
I will continue to express my personal opinions on matters, just as I say I hated most of Heroes 3 townscreens and I love the new ones from Heroes 6 and 7.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 03:08 PM |
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Stevie said:
ChrisD1 said:
oh stevie.. i meant sure there was a cliff somewhere there and it was visible. was it a dragon cliff? who knows!!!??? it was part of the scenery and not noticeable at all! no one is trying to discredit heroes 3.
Bollocks. It was the only cliff in the town, its brown color contrasting with the green scenery, so it was entirely noticeable. It even had dragons playing around it, several of them, so there was no question that it was indeed the dragon building, making your "was it a dragon cliff? who knows!!?~~" inquiry look even more sillier that it already was. Even more, as some people said before, you even had the picture on the build screen and the construction even highlighted after you've built it. So no, there was no room for mistaking the building for anything else than what it was. And as such, when you see faults with good design when they are not there, you are indeed discrediting Heroes 3. Granted it may have had others, but this is undoubtedly not one of them.
sweety the cliff was there no doubt. like a cloud in the sky. you notice it but it's doesn't stand out when it's not by itself. it's natural to see a cliff there in the townscreen, at first glance it was mistaken as part of the backround till you had to highlight it and say "hmm this is an actual building! I'll be damned!".
i'm sorry you got dissappointed with some desicions about this game, i am too.if heroes 3 is your safe place, so be it. gonna come back when smth new arrives or when anyone of you people have insightful ideas about gameplay,strategies or how we can actually have fun with various builds. all hail enroth and nwc (i'm already "burned" at the heroescommunity stake but i'm trying to be nice)
take care stevie!
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted June 30, 2015 03:09 PM |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 03:13 PM |
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted June 30, 2015 03:19 PM |
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Maurice said:
There's a surprising lack of screenshots of a fully build Rampart town on the internet and because I am at work, I cannot fabricate one of my own. I found the following image, though:
(image)
The top-right corner is completely taken up by the Dragon Cliffs, which is even further animated by miniature (due to distance) Dragons flying around it.
Yes, graphically you wouldn't be able to release a game these days that shows graphics like these, but we're talking about the concept and building layout here. Personally, I also fully believe that 2D works better for a townscreen than 3D.
Edit: And looking specifically at the Rampart screen, I would have chosen to make at least two alterations:
- I would have integrated the Mystic Pond (bottom right) with the waterfall of the Pegasi;
- I would have integrated the Dendroid dwelling with the Unicorn Glade;
The road is an important element in this TS, imo. It guides the eye towards the Castle. It offers a point of view, from which you can observe the other buildings on either side. A 2D screen like this can use that to its advantage to come to a decent composition where every building stands out and has a clear place of its own, while still being integrated in the overall scheme. H5's fly-through screens, especially the Necro one, hides a lot of buildings, forcing you to really go around to see what is where. From the fixed point of view you can't see everything. Appealing or no, I think most would just want to see everything at once. That's where the current TS is getting back at, but do they succeed? That's another point of discussion  .
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 03:28 PM |
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I wouldn't call h3 TS anything special, but they did look natural, give the feel of actual town and buildings are mainly identifiable. They were simply good TSs. As for h5, to me they looked great at least. They had all the essentials, they looked like actual towns and you could identify the buildings there. Even in Heroes Kingdoms they looked good to me and they were 2d there. H6 towns felt like they were from some toybox, but they were still coherent with the game in general(both new and old screens). They also felt quite dead, but IMO they would've been easy to animate to look a lot more lively. H7 gives this cold feel of them just being military forts in general, not real towns. From the TS I can totally feel how they had no priority at all in h7 and were given for some 5-year-old to place and decide the functions(I didn't even look at the TS during beta really, nothing to see there as it felt to me. It's all about the UI in h7).
H6 vs h7 have completely different focuses. H6 TS looks much more natural compared to rest of the game. Also the town model on adventure map corresponds to the town, while in h7 there is adventure map with plastic model town, TS with cartoon style and then there is siege-battle with 3rd model, all seperate and different from each other. The town "logic" is also ways better in h6 while on h7 everything is just thrown in random places and creatures are assigned completely random buildings for them. How many buildings could you truly identify as what they are without cheating? H7 looks on quick glance better, but when you actually start looking the town architect must've been from asylum as the building placement is completely off as well as the buildings function. There is no focus on important buildings looking important aside grail and capital IMO. Devs feel like they gave no thought on how the town would actually work or how it would get built in "reality". To me h6 and h7 have quite equal screens, both have their own flaws and neither have as good screens as games before them. Heck, I like h4 screens even better than h6 or h7(I didn't really care too much for h4 screen btw).
Honestly I don't get why devs couldn't make the TS look more logical. It wouldn't have been that much more work really, to me just another aspect they were cutting corners sadly. Since they didn't clearly care about TS they could've taken community in on it, making competition for creating TS for example. Winner gives rights for the pic to devs and they implement it to the game. Really there were many ways to make the TS good with same or even lesser work for devs, but they simply didn't care. As result we get bad/mediocre TSs and I don't really see this changing. I guess they were hoping players will mod good TSs to the game later so they won't need to make an effort in this front (either).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 30, 2015 03:44 PM |
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TD, I'm with you 99 %, the last 1 % being the part about H4 townscreens looking better, but that's because I hate H4 townscreens with a vengeance. But everything else, you are spot on!
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What will happen now?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 30, 2015 04:15 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 16:19, 30 Jun 2015.
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ChrisD1 said:
oh stevie.. i meant sure there was a cliff somewhere there and it was visible. was it a dragon cliff? who knows!!!??? it was part of the scenery and not noticeable at all!
It totally was though...
Now, the necro Town Hall and Castle on the other hand,
those I frequently get confused. My own fault though.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 30, 2015 04:34 PM |
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Inferno is the town confusing me the most since it's very busy up front.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2015 05:15 PM |
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Edited by Datapack at 17:16, 30 Jun 2015.
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ChrisD1 said:
you notice it but it's doesn't stand out when it's not by itself. it's natural to see a cliff there in the townscreen, at first glance it was mistaken as part of the backround till you had to highlight it and say "hmm this is an actual building! I'll be damned!".
Totally, since you have every building at the start.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 30, 2015 05:22 PM |
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alcibiades said:
TD, I'm with you 99 %, the last 1 % being the part about H4 townscreens looking better, but that's because I hate H4 townscreens with a vengeance. But everything else, you are spot on!
Well you can't deny it was innovative that the background changed with terrain.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
