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| Thread: Putin's n1 opposition gunned down in the streets. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 03, 2015 05:43 PM |
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Dude, nobody claims it is a coincidence and he was shot by a regular mugger. It's just that in such situations, both parties can have an agenda.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2015 06:44 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 18:47, 03 Mar 2015.
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Warmonger said:
But Mr. Putin declaring he's taking personal care of this investigation minutes after the crime was commited... this is just ridiculous. Everybody knows that he is the first and most obvious suspect in this case, and acting like nothing happened doesn't help him. People don't like to be fooled and threated like complete idiots.
Don't know about Russia, but nobody in the west will believe it was just an accident. The mere fact that Putin can be judge in his own case proves he's a dictator. Finding another one responsible for murder won't help this.
it could have been a CIA hit. if the guy wasn't really a threat to Putin, as another post suggests, then it could be easily feasible to consider that the person was taken out to further discredit Putin, and try to turn more people, including his own people, against him. if he actually IS so popular with people. i have my doubts.
my 2 cents. it's not like commoners haven't been used as pawns in a bigger game before. whoever did it could even rationalize that the person died for a "good cause". like some of the killings at the start of the "Russian invasion" thing. the one where people here posted pictures of the dead. those certainly seemed to me, to be for "a cause".
keep in mind, that what i am speculating here is no different from all the other speculation that can come from this death. don't you guys go all "conspiracy theorists are nuts" on me. 
edit: nevermind. seems this thought was already posted(after further reading). i am once again, beaten to the punch. 
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2015 07:13 PM |
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artu said:
there is always a chance that some "patriots" assassinate expandable people from their own side to create martyrs and discredit opposition.
That is also possible. One sad consequence when we bring all possibilities on the table is that people realize they can't know the truth, they end up confused by all the different opinions and they usually drop the matter entirely out of annoyance of powerlessness. It's a theory of mine that can be applied to the media in general as well ; bombard citizens with polarized, extreme left and right arguments until those that would be centrists ends up rolling their eyes and not caring about politics anymore, leaving only extremists to be concerned about politics in general.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 03, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Quote:
keep in mind, that what i am speculating here is no different from all the other speculation that can come from this death. don't you guys go all "conspiracy theorists are nuts" on me.
Yeah, well, there is a difference between the black-op assassination of a single opposition leader (especially in the East, sadly) and faking three airplanes on broad daylight in the middle of the city to kill thousands of your own citizens, when all credible and academic sources refute the physical aspects of your claim.
Btw, fred, do you think it was Oswald?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 03, 2015 08:09 PM |
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Minion said:
Assassination came a day before Nemtsov was to lead an opposition protest against Russia's actions in the Ukraine. Touchy topic. And yeah he was a vocal critic, although we don't know him here in the West. In fact he was bashing Putin on the radio just hours before the shooting...
But he's been doing that since forever. Why kill him now, in the centre of Moscow, right under the walls of what many people in the West perceive as the symbol of the Russian authoritarianism? Seems more like a B-movie scenario than an actual plan for assassination. Putin has the ex-KGB by his side, one would expect that they would come up with something more subtle, no?
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted March 03, 2015 08:31 PM |
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Maybe they didn't want anything more subtle? "look what can happen to you, where ever, when ever".
Governments having people killed is nothing new, it has happened since forever. And will continue to happen. This might have been such a case or not, we won't know for sure. That much is for sure.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 03, 2015 08:40 PM |
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Those accusations are insulting for Putin's intelligence. In XXI century, when US wants to invade, knell a country and steal the oil, CIA creates Al Quaida or invents the ethereal MD weapons then has an excuse. Israel creates Isis or launches its own rockets from Gaza then has an excuse for achieving the planned genocide and colonization. If Putin was behind this, we would have already find Chechen or (even better) Ukrainian famous finger-prints on the weapon dropped in the nearliest puddle. Come on)
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Era II mods and utilities
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 03, 2015 08:44 PM |
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You don't need to publicly shoot someone to deliver the "See what could happen to you" message. It is almost certain that at least some of the people which Putin's government finds "inconvenient" had been killed following an insider's order (maybe not directly Putin's but he's unlikely to be oblivious to these things) but they all disappeared more or less silently. This shooting has the "Look, look, this is a prime time exclusive material, broadcast it everywhere!" label all over it, the Russian government already has enough troubles with the Western propaganda to generously provide it with extra fuel.
In any case, the murder will probably never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction indeed. But this story is just beginning for sure.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 03, 2015 09:05 PM |
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An insightful article. A political portrait of the man, rather than the story of his murder.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2015 09:31 PM |
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artu said:
Yeah, well, there is a difference between the black-op assassination of a single opposition leader (especially in the East, sadly) and faking three airplanes on broad daylight in the middle of the city to kill thousands of your own citizens, when all credible and academic sources refute the physical aspects of your claim.
Btw, fred, do you think it was Oswald?
it's funny to me how you don't make the connection between what happened in NYC, to who profitted the most from all the deaths; and yet you see no conspiracy with just one or two people taken out to change whatever.
apparently, you don't understand what was at stake, in the minds of whoever is running things at any given moment. these guys might play dumb, but they know exactly what they're doing. think of how much practice they've had over the years. in the 50's, they were using LSD to experiment on mind changing behavior. that was in the 50's. imagine what they have now. imagine, for a second, what OTHER "advances" they've made. it's the kind of stuff that isn't going to go public. even people in the know, who might have a sudden change in values, have families and other people they care about. that's some serious leverage. people are ruining the world, just so they can have jobs and get paid, ffs.
why do you think isis hasn't been wiped off the map yet? they need to do enough damage to enough countries, i think, to unite people as a world power. or as a world police.
as for oswald, i think if he was even involved, that he didn't act alone. and if he did, keep in mind that they were experimenting with mind control years before that incident.
but that's just my thoughts. i could be wrong. but i hope i'm not.
because the alternative is human stupidity and ego, precariously balanced, every day of the week, with some serious firepower. that's a far more terrifying scenario, to me.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted March 03, 2015 09:48 PM |
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Duh! It wasn't Oswald, it was the cigarette smoking man!
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 03, 2015 11:34 PM |
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Fred, the neo-cons did politically exploit the 9/11 attacks. Politicians exploit such situations all the time. To say they STAGED it however, is an accusation of another level, requiring at least a bit of evidence to even consider as a remote possibility. Now, unfortunately, when it comes to such matters, you can not draw the line between what makes sense and what doesnt, which determines all the difference between rational skepticism and absurd, endless speculation. You also believe things like governments putting drugs in city water (which is regulary controlled by dozens of health inspectors btw, so again thousands of people must be in on it) to turn folks stupid, Jack Nicholson assassinating Heath Ledger, NASA holding back on aliens... I really dont mean to be impolite here, but these are all very out of proportion claims. One of the things skeptics always use is Ocham's Razor, now guess what happens when you apply that to 9/11 conspiricies:
Staking their fortunes almost solely on Internet-based content may have been the 9/11 deniers’ biggest mistake. What seems like a perfect place for pseudoscience — the Internet is unedited, without fact-checkers or minimum publishing standards of any kind — also became a perfect place for a rapid-response system of blogs and forums to fight back. Drawing on the freely available technical information from the NIST, FEMA, and academic journals which most colleges let their students access for free, skeptical sites like ScrewLooseChange.blogspot.com and debunking911.com are able to defuse 9/11 denier claims as they arise.
The Internet forced many “ground-level” 9/11 deniers — those who spread the gospel on popular social networking sites like Facebook and in their own blogosphere — into a rhetorical corner.
Instantaneous information traps old, well-discussed claims into sheer redundancy. In three years of debating 9/11 deniers, I have encountered almost the exact same laundry list of claims on dozens of occasions. The same resources have been successful in debunking 9/11 myths since their inception, tipping the debate against them. The first Loose Change was a sweeping work that, by this author’s estimation, implicated roughly 578,000 people in their version of 9/11; the “final edition,” though twice as long, has orders of magnitude less content and almost zero positive claims, drumming up a meager 8,200 suspects. This is almost certainly a result of Internet-based skeptics bombarding Loose Change’s makers with the facts.
skeptics.com I suggest reading the whole thing, not just my quote.
It's quite boring but I also suggest reading this report involving the proper documents about the demolition site, this is peer checked stuff, not speculation:
Link
When you claim something as unlikely and unneccessary*** as "our own government killed thousands of our own citizens with the greatest plot ever that should be kept as the biggest secret but also almost everyone from CIA to El Kaide, to mayor of New York to military and to the federal investigation comittee is in on it," well, you must clearly have a case better than "because governments are evil." Nobody, including you, has that.
***Unnecessary because the US never needed something on the scale of 9/11 to apply its foreign politics, not before, not after.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 12:40 AM |
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Edited by Kayna at 01:00, 04 Mar 2015.
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Zenofex said:
But he's been doing that since forever. Why kill him now, in the centre of Moscow, right under the walls of what many people in the West perceive as the symbol of the Russian authoritarianism? Seems more like a B-movie scenario than an actual plan for assassination.
It's a good question, but not as fool proof as you assume it is. First of all, people commit crimes for the pleasure of it rather than a logical reason. Never assume there is a logical reason behind it, even from politicians. Second, as I said earlier, enough confusion + a lack of proof + a dash of righteous, innocent until proven guilty law and everybody will give up understanding what happened after enough time. Shooting their own politician at a public place covers the confusion part.
Ask yourself the question, why would the US trash their own twin towers? Personally, I think they let it happen rather than stage it since a country attacking itself or letting an attack happen to have an excuse to go to war happened quite often in our human history, but still. Back on topic. I assume such an act ( if it was indeed commited by Putin and his crew ) would bring a dose of fear in potential rebels, would get rid of an annoyance and would push even more people away from politics ( to the point of not even wanting to state their opinions and beliefs ), which is something I believe every government likes.
Of course, such an act would also create anger among people. But what if, there is a social - psychological - whatever study they did, that says " even if you kill those specific people, they will not outright rebel, merely raise their voice for a while " ? It's mostly regarding the extreme left wing that believes everything can be solved without violence. Such a study would give the green light to such assassinations. And they can also use all form of media, internet and other form of information to slap a picture and a name of everyone angered by such an assassination and slap their file under a "possibly rebellious person" list. All this would lead to less people meddling in politics, and those angry by this exposed and easily identifiable.
This kind of stuff is happening a lot in Canada and the US, they started it around 1990, and I wouldn't be surprised if Russia was dipping their toes in excessive information gathering as well.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 04:41 AM |
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@ artu: i don't recall ever saying anything about "alien coverup"(although i wouldn't deny that i think there is life elsewhere in the universe), but i can see what your point is(and i could certainly see the reasoning behind any possible "alien coverup". but i don't watch the retarded t.v. shows about the subject, if that's what you mean).
all i do, when i assimilate information of possible conspiratory nature, is see who benefits from whatever happened. who benefits, i think, is key to understanding what's going on. as for how anything is done, or trying to find any sort of proof, is of course, another matter. i could be wrong, obviously; but undeniably, the parties i see benefit, are who i'm pointing out. that's where my belief system lies. of course, people can benefit from whatever for whatever reason, but when you can see a plan emerging, then it becomes something more substantial. evidence or no.
and, i've already covered the "evidence" part of conspiracy. it's a convoluted thing, and not easily acquired; except in rare instances. any "evidence" can easily be created, to redirect whoever's investigating. to deny that, i think, would lead someone to easily believe whatever is presented to them, by someone claiming that they "know" what happened. media, government, whoever; i don't mean you personally.
to sum up, i don't believe what people tell me, just because they tell me. when the content matters, anyway. i look to see who benefits directly from it. like bush, oil, and iraq. i don't believe the invasion of iraq was any mistake, at all. and i don't believe popular media, when it is fear-mongering, and manipulating the masses of easily-led morons, to believe whatever conclusions they draw for the viewer.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 04, 2015 06:57 AM |
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Kayna said:
It's a good question, but not as fool proof as you assume it is. First of all, people commit crimes for the pleasure of it rather than a logical reason. Never assume there is a logical reason behind it, even from politicians. Second, as I said earlier, enough confusion + a lack of proof + a dash of righteous, innocent until proven guilty law and everybody will give up understanding what happened after enough time. Shooting their own politician at a public place covers the confusion part.
Ask yourself the question, why would the US trash their own twin towers? Personally, I think they let it happen rather than stage it since a country attacking itself or letting an attack happen to have an excuse to go to war happened quite often in our human history, but still. Back on topic. I assume such an act ( if it was indeed commited by Putin and his crew ) would bring a dose of fear in potential rebels, would get rid of an annoyance and would push even more people away from politics ( to the point of not even wanting to state their opinions and beliefs ), which is something I believe every government likes.
Of course, such an act would also create anger among people. But what if, there is a social - psychological - whatever study they did, that says " even if you kill those specific people, they will not outright rebel, merely raise their voice for a while " ? It's mostly regarding the extreme left wing that believes everything can be solved without violence. Such a study would give the green light to such assassinations. And they can also use all form of media, internet and other form of information to slap a picture and a name of everyone angered by such an assassination and slap their file under a "possibly rebellious person" list. All this would lead to less people meddling in politics, and those angry by this exposed and easily identifiable.
This kind of stuff is happening a lot in Canada and the US, they started it around 1990, and I wouldn't be surprised if Russia was dipping their toes in excessive information gathering as well.
I'm not claiming that this proves anything. Maybe I have to put this here - it is fully possible that Nemtsov was killed by the government, at least as far as the motives are concerned. However, it will take a bit more than "He criticized Putin" to prove the point that the order came from Kremlin. They killed him for pleasure doesn't sound serious, assassinations normally have other goals than some psychopathic self-indulgence. Other than that - you have to bring to the table the pros and cons for the government associated with this murder and to prove that the pros exceed the cons by a large margins. Shortly put, the pros are - one more political opponent is down, the rest are now more cautious and docile; the cons on the other hand are international and partially internal suspicion, creating a possible martyr (this process has already started, at least in the West) and creating the impression that the government can't handle the opposition in any other way (that part is especially weird, provided that Putin has no real opposition at the moment). If you have something else in mind, state it.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 08:21 AM |
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Peaceful protests are almost worthless. The government can ignore it if they do wish so, and sometimes let us win over small matters to give us the impression that we matter, and that peaceful protests do work.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 04, 2015 05:01 PM |
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I understood majority of Russians weren't particularly fond of Nemtsov. As he was part of the young extremist-liberal reformers under Eltsine which caused 10 million of deaths in the nineties, which falls under the same category as famine under Stalin.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 06:19 PM |
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Kayna said:
Peaceful protests are almost worthless. The government can ignore it if they do wish so, and sometimes let us win over small matters to give us the impression that we matter, and that peaceful protests do work.
x2. peaceful protests are like voting: ineffectual, and meant to give people the sense that they have some control. when you're playing the game their way, you will lose; because the game was rigged before voters were actually involved. i don't believe they will let the masses ever have that kind of power, ever again. i don't know where it started, but i strongly feel that it was certainly eradicated throughout the years. they pay attention to what's popular among the public, what their interests and views are; but i think it doesn't matter a whit, in the end. people who run things have their world at stake, and they can't afford to have "commoners" attempting to control it.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 06:44 PM |
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From what I gathered this murderer should've played lottery! It seems there were a few "unfortunate" things regarding the murder.
1. No cameras were pointed in the right direction from Kremlin
2. After it was proven from photos that there actually was a camera looking directly at the site that camera was said to have been in "maintenance" that night so it wasn't on.
3. Another camera was looking at the murder-site, but unfortunately a snow plow happened to be in front of the camera(the location of this camera was not public knowledge btw). This happened to just prevent the visibility of murderer coming and going.
4. Interestingly there was no snow there, temperature was around 0 celcius and it was actually slightly raining water. The vehicle had no reason to be there or passing through there.
5. The car murderer drove out didn't have plates on this highly guarded and patrolled area so he got really "lucky" getting in and out apparently.
6. Gun used in murder is common gun with Russian police and military.
While it's completely possible it was just random killing or whatever, I find there to be quite a few too many coincidences and mishaps, but that's just my personal view. Of course it could be just an elaborate plot to make me think this way, but who knows. I doubt this case will ever be "truly" solved.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 04, 2015 08:02 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:13, 04 Mar 2015.
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One of the latest news is that the Russian government considers some sort of Patriotic Act to protect the "sovereignty" of the country from external interventions, using the assassination of Nemtsov as one of the arguments in favour of such a thing. I.e. one might speculate that the purpose of this murder was to give an excuse to tighten the regime, 2 rabbits with one bullet. Still, just speculate at this point.
(By the way the "sovereignty" thing isn't really new, such plans were announced last year but the fact that they're talking about that again seems to be moving the focus toward actual implementation of the idea.)
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