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| Thread: Putin's n1 opposition gunned down in the streets. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted March 07, 2015 11:15 AM |
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Zenofex said:
...For "some" reason
Last night I saw a Frontline on Ukraine and Syria and was a wee bit distressed to read a "Producer" credit. Should not "News" be the producer of any Story? 
I realize today, the fine line that exists around truth and disclosure.<imo> WWII became a Propaganda war where all scruples absolutely bit the dust and that War-practice has evolved to a modern norm for many other purposes while morphing behind huge Tech advances. Now, since journalism has became purposed-entertainment and the agencies that conduct such <ahem> Productions are owned by Gov. and or Corporate interests, I think that should make every free minded person...cringe.
Btw, the Ukraine segment showed a Rebel fighter bluntly stating; "he was paid by the Russians to fight." And On the Syrian half? Rebels said they were trained by the CIA but told not to reveal."
The problem I have with politics today is, after watching "shows" like that, I ask myself; is it true? or is it bs? My answer is ever the same; I cannot know unless I was there. Who can I trust to give me nothing but facts? Sadly, I cannot trust any Media anymore and knowing that Modern Leaders all believe in duel-identities and thrive on mis-direction to escape ethics, gives me zero reasons to change.
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fred79
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posted March 07, 2015 04:25 PM |
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@ markkur: sucks to see the "writing on the wall", doesn't it? you know, all one needs to begin to see the bull**** for what it really is, they just need to turn on CNN and watch it for 24 hours, straight. study it. and then, change the channel and watch all the other bull**** trying to either mimic, or play catch up.
CNN is wholly government-sponsored, i have no doubt. we used to have to keep it on that channel every single minute in HQ in iraq. i had never been exposed to so much "news" before in my life. having never really watched news before, it was a constant barrage of one-sided bull****, and i had to fend off the madness with fits of violent rage.
people who leave that kind of stuff on in the background, while they work(and subliminally pick up anything being broadcast), are a special kind of retard. they might as well strap a chunk of radiated metal to their heads.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 05:55 PM |
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See now, that's another example, Zenofex. EVEN in CNN's site, you could find not so bad articles directly linking the Iraq invasion to oil. (I remember linking one to Elodin and by his standards, CNN was anti-american  )
I must once again repeat that I do share your objection but not the extent you carry it to, you kind of exaggerate little.
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blizzardboy
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posted March 07, 2015 06:57 PM |
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Quote:
For "some" reason at the moment pretty much all big news companies in the West are promoting anti-Russian rhetoric and for the last year have greatly reduced their quality standards (where they exist) for impartiality and showing both sides of the story.
Your worldview sounds exhausting just from reading about it. Aren't you tired?
Negative attitudes have a tendency to spawn when you invade places. You call it one-sided. I call it reality. And I have no idea where these alleged hyper-polarized views are even coming from. In so far as what I watch and read, I can turn on mainstream American media and never at any point do I get the impression that the media is calling Putin "the devil". I mean, I suppose it's safe to say that if you dug up some popular hawks you could get a pretty intensely negative/sensationalist opinion. I wouldn't know because I don't honestly pay attention/care about them. Those people don't give you a limitless credit card to distrust the news. No Zenofex: I think you're inventing a caricature of American media in your mind in order to make yourself feel justified.
I have heard the claim on BBC that Putin's tactics are somewhat analogous to Hitler's pre-war tactics, but that's a completely logical connection to make, because it's true. Russia's #1 defense for invading Crimea is that it's ethnically primarily Russian and that the majority of people within that particular province are okay with it. It's literally identical to 1930s Austria and the border territories of Czechoslovakia.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted March 07, 2015 06:58 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 19:00, 07 Mar 2015.
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fred79 said:
sucks to see the "writing on the wall", doesn't it? you know, all one needs to begin to see the bull**** for what it really is, they just need to turn on CNN and watch it for 24 hours, straight. study it. and then, change the channel and watch all the other bull**** trying to either mimic, or play catch up.
I can't do it. I very seldom read any news. NEWS is so much sensationally driven slant that I can't stomach it anymore. There is another reason and I'm sure you are aware but not so much of the general population. But with the 24/7/365 steady pounding of every bad freaking thing going on around the whole globe, is it any wonder populations are growing more depressed? Back when I could work and had the habit of reading/ listening whatever and kept finding myself angry etc. One day, the first thing I read, was about a school-bus going off the side of a mountain in (wherever)and I thought; "Why did I need to know this?" Ofc I didn't and I still don't but now...will not.
fred79 said:
CNN is wholly government-sponsored, i have no doubt. we used to have to keep it on that channel every single minute in HQ in iraq. i had never been exposed to so much "news" before in my life. having never really watched news before, it was a constant barrage of one-sided bull****, and i had to fend off the madness with fits of violent rage.
idk about directly government sponsored but when I consider Corporations are running the whole political show than it's pretty much the same thing....just tricksier.
fred79 said:
people who leave that kind of stuff on in the background, while they work(and subliminally pick up anything being broadcast), are a special kind of retard. they might as well strap a chunk of radiated metal to their heads.
That's a bit harsh but they do need to learn that they are under attack and need to get control of their <um> emotional diet.<L>
Here's what opened my eyes one day.
Clinton and Gingrich were all over the news in a reported nasty dog-fight about some bill; (these guys just don't like each other!)you know the drill, punch counter-punch. Anyway, CNN was doing one of their 1st what I call...round-robins. You know flash to this reporter , flash to another one and so on and each has their own dynamite scoop. Well, it just so happened, that when they "went" to Bitzer before he was ready. what did his camera man pick-up accidentally in the background? Clinton and Gingrich laughing and sharing a drink just inside a posh dining room.
In a nano-second that live scene was CUT and when the DESK came back to the dude, guess what? The buddies were not in view and the story about this "nasty tussle" resumed. I nearly puked.
I've probably said this in one way or another, a hundred times since; "I'm told we(the U.S.)have two Parties but that's not true; they are both having a good time at one Party."
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 07:31 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:34, 07 Mar 2015.
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If there was some staged animosity between them, that's really puke material, however if they debated in rival mode, cold and distant, yet proffesional, although they were acquintances in real life keeping it civil or even friends, I wouldnt consider it such a bad thing. Imagine a lawyer and prosecuter, who are building a case against each other and who are friends, can they address each other during the trial like "what's up, Harry, how's the wife?"
I was listening to an international politics professor the other day and he said that the only reason the two party system in America doesnt get stuck in "goats head to head" mode is that a) decentralized authority and b) the congress men being able to work with the opponents if necessary, a Democrat candidate saying he will be able to manage working with Republicans if necessary and so on to get elected. I think that's better than the polarization here where people from opposing parties genuinely hate each other most of the time.
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Zenofex
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posted March 07, 2015 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 19:37, 07 Mar 2015.
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blizzardboy said:
Quote:
For "some" reason at the moment pretty much all big news companies in the West are promoting anti-Russian rhetoric and for the last year have greatly reduced their quality standards (where they exist) for impartiality and showing both sides of the story.
Your worldview sounds exhausting just from reading about it. Aren't you tired?
Negative attitudes have a tendency to spawn when you invade places. You call it one-sided. I call it reality. And I have no idea where these alleged hyper-polarized views are even coming from. I can turn on mainstream American media and never at any point do I get the impression that the media is calling Putin "the devil". No Zenofex: I think that's just you inventing a caricature of American media in your mind in order to make yourself feel justified.
I have heard the claim on BBC that Putin's tactics are somewhat analogous to Hitler's pre-war tactics, but that's a completely logical connection to make, because it's true. Russia's #1 defense for invading Crimea is that it's ethnically primarily Russian and that the majority of people within that particular province are okay with it. It's literally identical to 1930s Austria and the border territories of Czechoslovakia.
Really, blizz, you provoke negative attitude when you invade places? That's true. Tell me then, how come the half-arsed indirect invasion of Russia on Ukraine is worse (and I mean far worse) in the eyes of the media than the invasions of the US which are both more numerous and with far higher number of casualties and long-term consequences?
The Hitler accusations fall flat simply because of that cute little thing which the Western countries decided to create the Balkans 'cause they can - Kosovo. Nobody expects that if you carry out the same referendum in Crimea today, completely transparently and with no pressure from any side, the result will be any different. Putin just handled the whole thing Russian-style - directly, caring little about what others will think - but ultimately can wave the Kosovo argument until the end of the world. The native population is an excuse, Crimea is needed for military purposes. I'm yet to read one analysis which explains why the biggest country in the world needs more land.
As for the caricature... don't know blizz, for some reason I'm getting the impression that many people in the US think that everyone's "scared of Russia". How about you? 
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blizzardboy
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posted March 07, 2015 07:53 PM |
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Zenofex] said:
Really, blizz, you provoke negative attitude when you invade places? That's true. Tell me then, how come the half-arsed indirect invasion of Russia on Ukraine is worse (and I mean far worse) in the eyes of the media than the invasions of the US which are both more numerous and with far higher number of casualties and long-term consequences?
1. American invasions did provoke an enormous amount of controversy in the news. So in some sense, zero rebuttal is required here.
2. American invasions were not exclusively American, which makes the focus of attention more spread out. Crimea is going to fall squarely on Russia for obvious reasons.
3. Frankly, there's more support and reasoning in the world for the US's military activity in recent decades than there are of Russia annexing a part of one of its old republics. The war in Yugoslavia is a great example.
Quote:
The Hitler accusations fall flat simply because of that cute little thing which the Western countries decided to create the Balkans 'cause they can - Kosovo. Nobody expects that if you carry out the same referendum in Crimea today, completely transparently and with no pressure from any side, the result will be any different. Putin just handled the whole thing Russian-style - directly, carrying little about what others will think - but ultimately can wave the Kosovo argument until the end of the world. The native population is an excuse, Crimea is needed for military purposes. I'm yet to read one analysis which explains why the biggest country in the world needs more land.
I'll tell you what: I'm willing to reach a compromise here. If Crimea were experiencing acts of systematic ethnic cleansing and institutionally-supported mass rape of women from inside of a civil war ridden Ukraine, and if Russia - after already spending many months of taxing negotiation and failing to produce results - eventually decided to say "Screw your sovereignty" to Ukraine, and then forcefully intervened and made Crimea a satellite state, then I would have an enormously more favorable opinion towards Russia's actions. I would even slap a Putin bumper sticker on my car and email you the pics. Deal?
I'm not an isolationist, or a college student libertarian, or a depraved pacifist living in a sheltered country. I morally support using the military to shell & incinerate human beings that rape & mutilate defenseless women because they're Croatian, or Muslim, or anything else, in so far as that military action is not used merely for retributive purposes, and that re-establishing peace and social order is always the prime directive. And you know what? So does most of the rest of the world, because Clinton's intervention in the Balkans was rather popular. There is no cognitive dissonance in my views.
Quote:
As for the caricature... don't know blizz, for some reason I'm getting the impression that many people in the US think that everyone's "scared of Russia". How about you?
I'm scared that Russia is going to take my nuts.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 08:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:16, 07 Mar 2015.
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blizzardboy said:
1. American invasions did provoke an enormous amount of controversy in the news.
That's a fair point, especially during the Bush administration, the reaction to US was growing so strong, they started to warn their tourists not to look too American abroad.
Yet, since American popular culture is much more global on a consumer basis, people usually make a difference between the people and the government at some level even subconsciously, not so when it comes to Russia.
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Zenofex
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posted March 07, 2015 08:39 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:52, 07 Mar 2015.
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Quote:
1. American invasions did provoke an enormous amount of controversy in the news. So in some sense, zero rebuttal is required here.
2. American invasions were not exclusively American, which makes the focus of attention more spread out. Crimea is going to fall squarely on Russia for obvious reasons.
3. Frankly, there's more support and reasoning in the world for the US's military activity in recent decades than there are of Russia annexing a part of one of its old republics. The war in Yugoslavia is a great example.
1. The US invasions certainly provoked a controversy, I remember that quite well. But that's not quite the same thing. An equivalent of that controversy now would be to have, say, half of the journalists defending the position that the Russian reaction to the events in Ukraine is caused by the unhindered NATO expansion toward the Russian borders which is easily a far greater security threat than Saddam ever was for anyone in Europe or in the US, even if he had the mythical bio-weapons.
2. Yes, a number of "volunteer" countries joined. The campaigns however were organized by the US, carried out mostly by the US (I think there is no need to provide digits) and to this date they are universally viewed as "American invasions", save maybe Yugoslavia. For a number of good reasons.
3. Let's say that there was an excuse for Afghanistan. Sort of. However, Iraq is proven to be a big fat lie and yet the international condemnation, media included, is somewhat... lacking.
Quote:
I'll tell you what: I'm willing to reach a compromise here. If Crimea were experiencing acts of systematic ethnic cleansing and institutionally-supported mass rape of women from inside of a civil war ridden Ukraine, and if Russia - after already spending many months of taxing negotiation and failing to produce results - eventually decided to say "Screw your sovereignty" to Ukraine, and then forcefully intervened and made Crimea a satellite state, then I would have an enormously more favorable opinion towards Russia's actions. I would even slap a Putin bumper sticker on my car and email you the pics. Deal?
Unfortunately we can make a hundred of "what if" deals which will have no impact on reality. It's good to know that you support righteous wars though. The topic from where you will know for sure that the war will be righteous remains open.
Quote:
I'm not an isolationist, or a college student libertarian, or a depraved pacifist living in a sheltered country. I morally support using the military to shell & incinerate human beings that rape & mutilate defenseless women because they're Croatian, or Muslim, or anything else, in so far as that military action is not used merely for retributive purposes, and that re-establishing peace and social order is always the prime directive. And you know what? So does most of the rest of the world, because Clinton's intervention in the Balkans was rather popular. There is no cognitive dissonance in my views.
Putting aside the Hollywood-ish depiction of Yugoslavia, let's say that there were fairly good reasons for foreign intervention, actually one of the few cases when the UN could do something right (although you probably don't give a damn about depleted uranium used in the name of righteousness and stuff like that). However, Kosovo's independence is a completely different matter where the West ****** up strategically, big time.
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blizzardboy
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posted March 07, 2015 09:18 PM |
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2003 Iraq is widely regarded as a screw-up, but the condemnation is lacking because America plays such a huge role in trade & consumer products in the world that you can't really afford to sanction them without crippling yourself. Another reason is that even if the main player was the US, the fact remains that most countries out there either supported or at least silently consented to the coalition, which puts them in an awkward & uncomfortable position to officially say anything. The 3rd reason is that it's already happened and the US is gone. So what are you suppose to do? Offer a post-Mortum diagnosis? Ukraine-Russia is happening right now. It's fresh. The conclusion is still unknown. The different players can alter the results.
As we can all see, America greatly benefited from the exploits of Iraq. Celebration & jubilee abounds on the roaring streets over the billions of dollars of war debt, suicidal veterans, and the emergence of ISIS and continued instability in the oil-rich Middle East. We won the lottery on that one. I have a golden statue that urinates margaritas in my living room thanks to Iraq.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2015 09:41 PM |
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artu said:
See now, that's another example, Zenofex. EVEN in CNN's site, you could find not so bad articles directly linking the Iraq invasion to oil.
It's all based on a social study. Left wing people never take arms to fight back ; they only back talk. They're not a threat to us ( the war mongering right wing in power ), so might as well give them news like that, because giving both sides of the coin will make us look better abroad even if deep down inside, we ain't better.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 09:49 PM |
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That's an oversimplification if nothing else. Besides, what exactly is your position then?
- There is no critical media coverage of X invasion in the West.
- Here's one and here's another.
- Those exist so that we can feel good about ourselves and nothing else.
Do you want them to exist or not? If their only function is providing fake relief, then we might as well abandon free press all together, it suddenly seems like a pretty empty idea!
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2015 10:06 PM |
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It was more of a point than a position. You claim western media is slightly better than other media, I say "not exactly, the freedom of press they provide us only helps them look better".
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 10:13 PM |
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It does have a function like that, granted. But it also keeps thing more checked and balanced even when it doesnt prevent them completely. You are always seeking for the utopically ideal and rejecting any notion of progress when you naturally cant find any. I evaluate things in comparison, I ask myself, where does it stand compared to its contemporary peers?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2015 10:40 PM |
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You read me well. I've indeed given up on "progress" because we are locked in an eternal war where we must give a lot of effort for a small change, only to have it all removed by a red neck signed piece of paper, and while we run around like rats in a wheel, we cry out victory for small changes and cry out defeat on massive regression at an equal raised tone and for an equal duration.
The powers that be does not need to listen to us if we're not armed and this left wing belief simply helps them.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 10:48 PM |
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I still prefer living today to living in the 14th century, though. Without a blink.
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fred79
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posted March 07, 2015 10:50 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
As we can all see, America greatly benefited from the exploits of Iraq. Celebration & jubilee abounds on the roaring streets over the billions of dollars of war debt, suicidal veterans, and the emergence of ISIS and continued instability in the oil-rich Middle East. We won the lottery on that one. I have a golden statue that urinates margaritas in my living room thanks to Iraq.
LOL. 
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2015 11:21 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 23:27, 07 Mar 2015.
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artu said:
I still prefer living today to living in the 14th century, though. Without a blink.
And what kind of progress really made us what we are today, a political progress of monarchies to governments, or a scientific progress where 10 guys with some oil and gigantic farm "tools" can now feed thousands of people?
blizzardboy said:
As we can all see, America greatly benefited from the exploits of Iraq. Celebration & jubilee abounds on the roaring streets over the billions of dollars of war debt, suicidal veterans, and the emergence of ISIS and continued instability in the oil-rich Middle East. We won the lottery on that one. I have a golden statue that urinates margaritas in my living room thanks to Iraq.
Do you assume that the higher ups really care about the common American?
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 11:23 PM |
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They are all interlinked. That's why it didnt happen everywhere at the same time.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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