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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 25, 2015 09:35 AM |
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Meh that was no fun. I'd rather the impact of the first strike was reduced instead.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2015 10:04 AM |
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On the contrary, it WAS fun, because First Strike was suddenly something to fight for (Mass Snake Strike, for example).
It made losses in the beginning inevitable.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 25, 2015 10:18 AM |
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I can already have the fun with first strike by default  For me heroes is closer to chess than a combat simulation and as such simultaneous retaliation doesn't quite feel right. It is a reasonable approach to a valid issue but not my preferred approach.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2015 11:08 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:18, 25 Aug 2015.
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Never liked H4's approach on combat in general. The classical way is much more appealing to me. You could say in turn that simultaneous retaliation becomes something to fight for, although I simply can't bring myself to like such a feature that feels like real time simulation to me. It just breaks my immersion. And while I agree that losses should exist, I don't agree with them being unavoidable. Creature stacks should be hard to sustain, but nonetheless you should be able to do so with the right combat strategy. Heroes 4 was too acute on losing troops, just as Heroes 6 was so on saving them, so I think the best approach should be minimizing casualties.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 25, 2015 11:28 AM |
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Stevie said:
so I think the best approach should be minimizing casualties.
That's a given. Any unit that dies for you during a battle is one that can't fight in any battles that follow after that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2015 11:49 AM |
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You must not forget that HoMM IV was a very different game - the fact that simultaneous retaliation worked THERE, doesn't mean it would work in a "conventional" HoMM game.
The most striking difference in H4 is the ability of the player to have multiple Casters and also creatures with a spell book. In H4 you'll spend a lot of Mana each turn, which is a lot of fun, as is creatures having a spellbook (downside: not many creatures and no upgrades available).
So that's why H4 is such a good game - provided you can delve into it: Elves are great - but White Tigers have First Strike and high Initiative. Depending on the spells you get, you have a lot of different strategies, and the fact that there is simultaneous retaliation ADDS to it.
Asylum is basically the same choice, mind you - only somewhat "chaotic": Medusa shooter may Stone Gaze additional targets - Minos have Block which may or may not trigger.
Keep also in mind, how effortlessly H4 allows to call in additional troops; 3 of the 5 schools allow that, and additional troops mean fodder for retaliation...
Bottom line is, that H7 is no game to handle SimRetal; it could have been one, though, although if they hadput that in instead of flanking, with as much adjustment of the rest of the game (as in none) it wouldn't have been good either.
I'd also like to add, that MINIMIZING losses means there ARE losses, and obviously so many that "minimizing" them makes a difference.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 25, 2015 12:40 PM |
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I have to side with JJ in this regard - sim relatations were much fairer than the classical approach. Having unavoidable losses at the beginning of the game had another positive effect - it'd take longer for stacks in the adventure map to become less of a threat to your hero, since your army would keep shrinking in size.
What I truly can't understand is having First Strike as relatation of a unit in conjuction with the classic HoMM gameplay. You are going from killing units and then receiving damage to first receive damage and then doing whatever damage your remaining units of that stack can. You, the attacker, are discouraged from attacking in first place because of that stupid ability. That's not Heroes
A much balanced and reasonable ability would be to have simultaneous relatation, so the defending creature is guaranteed dealing full damage to the attacker, but so is the attacker.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2015 01:11 PM |
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Yes. Preemptive Strike as Defense ability will give a defending unit first strike in retaliation. Another turtling ability. Your shooters kill the poor basterds coming on, and when they reach their body guards they will strike first, no matter what.
Same is true for flanking, mind you. "Fringe" of BF (that shouldn't exist with flanking) is the safe haven, and incidentally it's where shooters are bound to wait.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 25, 2015 02:27 PM |
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Another thing I liked with king's bounty was that in addition to hexes, there were no safe corners. Harder to turtle that way 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 25, 2015 02:40 PM |
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Silly Elvin, squares are shinier!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 25, 2015 04:16 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Silly Elvin, squares are more spikey!
FTFY.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 25, 2015 05:43 PM |
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Maurice said:
Storm-Giant said:
Silly Elvin, squares are more spikey!
FTFY.
I guess triangles will be the next big thing in h8 then?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted August 25, 2015 06:28 PM |
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TD said:
Maurice said:
Storm-Giant said:
Silly Elvin, squares are more spikey!
FTFY.
I guess triangles will be the next big thing in h8 then?
Triangles would be interesting. They are better from squares in one aspect - they don't have problem with diagonals, like squares do. However, I don't know if decreasing number of sites from which a unit can be attacked is something positive. Still, an experiment with squares can be done but maybe not in a fully-fledged Heroes game.
It was probably pointed out a few times but Ubi conducted a survey where one of questions was about hexes. Surprisingly, only in Poland and Germany majority of players was for hexes. In other countries people opted for hexes. As a person who first played Heroes V, I don't mind squares, however hexes aren't a problem either, so I don't have any particular preference.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 25, 2015 06:36 PM |
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Squares must go away, Ubi keeps being unable to deliver a proper creature scale under squares. It should be more difficult to screw that with hexes.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 25, 2015 08:00 PM |
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So why are squares actually a problem? Doesn't this bring in more strategic choices?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 25, 2015 08:41 PM |
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Pathfinding and mobility issues more like. One square does not equal one movement as diagonals are calculated differently, about 1.4 movement cost. Large unit movement is a liability. You cannot have more than 5 large units in tactics phase. Just the fact that a large unit is 400% bigger than a normal unit should have raised some concerns..
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 25, 2015 08:45 PM |
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So I was looking for beta key, and it turns that almost all options left ask me to pay something to get one. But on advertisement page they say they need people to report bugs, and by doing such, actively participate in making the game better. I am confused in front of such humbug.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted August 25, 2015 09:37 PM |
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Salamandre said:
So I was looking for beta key, and it turns that almost all options left ask me to pay something to get one. But on advertisement page they say they need people to report bugs, and by doing such, actively participate in making the game better. I am confused in front of such humbug.
If you want to, I can give you one.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2015 10:00 PM |
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The problem is that HoMM 4 did squares as well - but a world better, battlefield being very big in terms of squares and creatures being between 3x3 and 6x6, translating into two sizes in between. (If you equal 3x3 with 1x1 and 6x6 with 2x2, HoMM 4 offered two in-between sizes, ratios 9:16:25:36 with a lot more interesting battlefield geometry.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 25, 2015 10:17 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
So why are squares actually a problem? Doesn't this bring in more strategic choices?
Well, I don't think squares are precisely the problem per se, but rather how they are used/utilized. In theory square has 8 "exits", but game counts it more like 4(the sides). The same reasoning for wanting hex-system could be used for octagonal system all the same/ I mean even with current system you can use 8 sides to attack, just not "truly" to move. Currently in the square-system we only got 1x1 and 2x2 size-units. For example some unit like snake or crocodile would be very fitting as say 1x2, but this system doesn't understand that because the movement and placement of the unit. Bring the ability to move 45 degree angles at movement cost of one and such units could exist(and yes I do know it's in reality longer movement than the 90 degree movements). The squares don't really bother me, but I would prefer hex-system personally if I had to choose between the two.
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