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aionb
Known Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 03:32 PM |
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ChrisD1, why is it so hard to understand that the H6/7 system is boring and tends to lead you about the same route all time (if you want to have a good hero - and why wouldn't I want to?), while the H2-H5 system is dynamic, leaves almost every possibility open and ensures different results and paths absolutely each and every time?
The systems couldn't be more different, I don't understand what's so much to talk about.
As for me, this new system clearly kills all the fun and the thrill.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 03:43 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
a single skill can change your whole strategy? out of the 6 or 8 slots you have? come on. I've played H3 and H5 numerous times and I never had to change my strategy or the way I was planning to build my hero from the start.
I only play h5 and yes I have changed my skills a lot because of the skill I get. Let's say my academy hero has sorcery and racial maxed. I get choice between summon and light(for arguements sake let's say I always kept getting these and never got any other choices as I was so unlucky) do you think I should still go for my racial ultimate? Having this skill makes it already 1/4th less useful and I have to get war-machines(which is useless) to get it. This will also mean I would have 4/5 slots used and I can't get the morale+attack for retribution which greatly dimishes my power. And to answer your question shortly, yes I will change my whole strategy at this point. If I kept going with my original plan I would end up with much weaker hero than say if I get light/summon, sorcery, morale, attack and defense/logistics.
ChrisD1 said:
also h7 random system does give you random skills though a specific pool(like h5 system and the increased possibilities to get smth closer to your class/faction) and h7 random system does not actually let you choose the order of your skills.
Are you sure? I'm just asking because when I tried(on demo) a fire-mage it kept giving me the essentially 2 bad fire and meta-magic abilities, never gave me choice for the one I wanted when I leveled till level 8(and I ended up picking one of them, but to make sure I got those 1/3 that I wanted for both skills I would need to take 3/4 bad skills to make sure I can get the ones I wanted. And it was the same with skills, it offered me economy as I recall and some other magic which I ended up taking. Yet again I kept getting the "bad" abilities, only to have even bigger pool for them. So in the end the only "good" thing I got was expert fire-magic because I took the "bad" ability, yet I didn't truly get anything I wanted. The system is just plain bad. I have among others suggested how to fix it which would mean making it more classical, but time will tell if they ever want to make random skills viable.
ChrisD1 said:
I'm not saying that everything is perfect and that H7 random equals H3/h5 random. but the differencies when you actually play, are extremely minor!!! in theory everything is different yeah.
and again i'll say that controllable randomness is contradicting. and I will repeat that this thing is way closer to h7 system (random or not) than you are willing to accept. and I've played random too and it was indeed hard and yes it was an afterthought but at level 8 i was happy with at least two skills of mine. i refuse to believe you were that unlucky. also i find difficult to believe that you don't like randomness like the one you got in h7 but you like, randomness that gives you a very high chance to get what you want but hate the fact that you can get what you want in heroes 7 free system -.-
the twitch started lets end this. i would admit that i'm being subjective but i'm not. because i understand that both systems have merits and faults. and that's the actual truth. you don't like this system. that's cool. but it's you. I don't like this system either but I can see its merits and i'm willing to try them.
No, h7 random is nowhere near the old random systems. It could be fairly easily fixed to be, but in current state it's just horrible. And controllable randomness... Consider it more like playing the odds, because that's what it is. And I do agree with you that h7 system is way closer to h7 system
And as many have previously explained too the whole problem with the full-control system is that you always build the hero same way. You always build the hero in same order. It lacks the challenge and excitement as to what you get without completely throwing you to wolves. In the past getting skills was always in different order and getting a bit unlucky might make you throw your entire plan out the window and make new one because you could still make very powerful hero as all skills(except war-machines in general) were viable. In h7 you are stuck boosting and maximizing the hero the same way every game if you want to win(with the exception of playing against idiots who hopefully won't pick good skills).
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odium
Known Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 08:05 PM |
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This discussion with the added randomness is quite old, and some people seem to think that randomness is a necessary requirement for re-playability.
This is not true. Randomness is just a work-around used when the system itself is flawed and some option is always better than the others. There are plenty of examples where the system is not random, but you have very good re-playability: think of chess or think of decently balanced games like Starcraft series.
Having the system properly designed is not a hardly achievable task as it seems, if you have a decently competent team of developers. You don't have to have everything equal. You just need to provide at least 2 ways (builds) to play a specific race.
Add to that some context dependent abilities/skills that will make a sub-optimal build shine in some specific situations and you have a strategy game.
Also I see that people are overestimating the skill randomness in H5. I know for a fact that it was controllable if you mastered how many branches to leave open. People playing competitively in multi-player were in most of the cases able to go to the final battle with a build which was roughly 90% of the desired build. It's true though that the "when" part was not controllable (not so much the "if" part). Maybe you wanted a very specific ability/skill to pop-up faster so that you can creep better, that was not so controllable (of course depending on race some skills were more probable than others so sooner or later you were able to pick it).
That is not to say that randomness might not have been the better option considering the recent fiasco regarding H6 where developers (all of them) did not seem to be at the right competence level...
As for the decision of having 6 heroes per race, it does not seem to be the right way to provide a non-random and re-playable game. To be able to provide at least 2 equally efficient builds for each of the 6 heroes, it means that you need 12 proper builds per race. That's most definitely not going to happen...
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 10:56 PM |
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Why they said today no mermaid in final release ? She is already in beta files 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 01, 2015 11:37 PM |
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odium said:
This is not true. Randomness is just a work-around used when the system itself is flawed and some option is always better than the others. There are plenty of examples where the system is not random, but you have very good re-playability: think of chess or think of decently balanced games like Starcraft series.
Not to be nitpicky (otherwise I would mention that StarCraft DID have some randomness  ), but SC is not a good example. In StarCraft, you aren't just fighting against your opponent, you are fighting against your hands and your brain. Even if you have a plan for a specific map, your execution not only depends on what your opponent is doing, but also of yourself. You can do the same thing twice against an opponent and have different results because your attack came a few seconds earlier than before and your opponent wasn't ready/was out of position. It's a Real-Time Strategy game.
Heroes is the opposite. If you have a plan for a map, with no random system nothing is there to stop you from achieving it. That's the main reason a lot of people here are in favour of adding *at least* a certain degree of randomness in the skill system. Not to mention with absolute freedom to pick skills, you will most likely set your hero build in the same order time and time again, while with randomness you may be forced to choose them in different order.
Being forced to adapt when offered a non-optimal skill/perk is part of the charm too 
Not that I'm saying a non-random system is bound to fail - a well-thought, balanced skill wheel with plenty of different options could work, but I believe it is less likely to do so, and much more prominent to lead to boredom.
____________
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted September 01, 2015 11:41 PM |
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They are keeping her for Sanctuary faction? Expansion? Yes? No? Maybe?
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drusain
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 02, 2015 02:39 AM |
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I played a Sylvan after playing having played my Dungeon game a few days ago and I want to stress something very important to this game's balance.
A strategy game has absolutely no strategy if there's only one correct option.
I had once said that if you're a Dungeon Might hero, while you have a list of skills to pick from, you are objectively underperforming if you do not skill into Shroud/Offense. If you choose other skills, then you are really making the game harder on yourself. That's not strategy.
Faction skills are so powerful that you can't ignore them. So if you want to play optimally, you skill in your faction skill and any skill that boosts the capabilities of your faction skill. I've played different skill variants but they all boil down to one thing: your ability to customize your hero is almost minimal. Unless you choose to underperform and not choose your faction skills.
And that's boring. Any idiot can choose cookie cutter skills. The earlier games discouraged such play; the skills you got were random, but you would definitely have a might skill, a magic skill, and some utility skills, and that would let you win regardless of the skills you took.
This game has no such option for strategy. The faction skills are too powerful to ignore.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 02, 2015 04:16 AM |
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drusain said:
I played a Sylvan after playing having played my Dungeon game a few days ago and I want to stress something very important to this game's balance.
A strategy game has absolutely no strategy if there's only one correct option.
I had once said that if you're a Dungeon Might hero, while you have a list of skills to pick from, you are objectively underperforming if you do not skill into Shroud/Offense. If you choose other skills, then you are really making the game harder on yourself. That's not strategy.
Faction skills are so powerful that you can't ignore them. So if you want to play optimally, you skill in your faction skill and any skill that boosts the capabilities of your faction skill. I've played different skill variants but they all boil down to one thing: your ability to customize your hero is almost minimal. Unless you choose to underperform and not choose your faction skills.
And that's boring. Any idiot can choose cookie cutter skills. The earlier games discouraged such play; the skills you got were random, but you would definitely have a might skill, a magic skill, and some utility skills, and that would let you win regardless of the skills you took.
This game has no such option for strategy. The faction skills are too powerful to ignore.
I disagree here. My first game was with Lethos one of the DE might heroes and his special and motivated me to go for Dark magic, never regreted the move. Since with souleater he basicaly had unlimited mana at the start. Ashbeth on the otrher hand might be played in a very different way. Aswal es Diplomaci is very strong and is more valid then pure attack power.
There are atleast some options, the pure attack route is not the only one.
Minastir said:
Why they said today no mermaid in final release ? She is already in beta files
Fingers crossed.. Hope for the best YAY.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 05:18 AM |
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Yeah, same for the dungeon champion with the ballista + logistics early game (the GM logistic skill is crazy good).
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 06:32 AM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
They are keeping her for Sanctuary faction? Expansion? Yes? No? Maybe?
Sanctuary wont happen. Xpack maybe.
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 07:53 AM |
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drusain : In H3 mainly (where is little number of good skills too) and smometimes in H5(depending which faction might or magic hero etc.) you should strongly choose one path, the same skills (when appeared) especially in multiplayer.
Herein H7 there is random skill mode to oits similar to H5.
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 07:53 AM |
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drusain : In H3 mainly (where is little number of good skills too) and smometimes in H5(depending which faction might or magic hero etc.) you should strongly choose one path, the same skills (when appeared) especially in multiplayer.
Herein H7 there is random skill mode to oits similar to H5.
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VieuxSinge
Hired Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 10:00 AM |
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@drusain
So just because you played dungeon this way means that you found the best possible build and that any other build is garbage? Good thinking here
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 10:44 AM |
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted September 02, 2015 11:28 AM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
They are keeping her for Sanctuary faction? Expansion? Yes? No? Maybe?
Sanctuary wont happen. Xpack maybe.
T.T
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MegiddoZO
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 02, 2015 01:06 PM |
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Stevie said:
[url=https://mmh7.ubi.com/en/blog/post/view/closed-beta-extended-until-september-7th]Closed Beta Extended Until September 7th[/url]
Rejoice, lol.
Well it's good at least they understand that they need more feedback in terms of all the bugs/balancing issues that are still in the game.
I do hope they also have the good vision of delaying the actual release date as well, though...it seems highly improbable they'd be able to fix all the issues in here with less than a month still left.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 02, 2015 01:11 PM |
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Yesterday on the stream they made very clear they won't delay the game. So don't count with it.
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syth
Hired Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 01:36 PM |
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cleglaw said:
my very last game has just ended, and its time for me to write down goods & bads shorlty. normally i dont want to write this down without further experience but simply increased technical issues made me tired and bored.
goods:
-local guards system.
-forticifaction progress.
-area control mechanics.
-music.
-adventure map layouts.
-adventure buildings.
-mixed neutral armies.
-lots of artifacts.
-resource system.
-new quick combat mechanics.
mehs:
-spell system.
-spells.
-hero leveling system & its balance.
-creature balance.
-racials.
-graphics (artistical. style & colors).
-artifact bonuses.
-battlemaps.
-warfare.
-outpost system.
-plunder mechanics.
bads:
-ai quality.
-ai speed.
-technical issues like game crushes.
-wrong info,text.
-access to info, text.
-graphics (technical. optimization, visibility & zooming).
----------------------------
have no idea part:
-2 remaining factions.
-multiplayer(its too broken so im simply unable to test it, sim turn looks good but it constantly getting crushes and seeing enemy battle is very a bad idea).
Hmm nice analysis.I didn't try the beta yet but the "good" part sound promising.How does the "local guard" stuff work?
As for the "Meh" part it seems if they can fix the skill/spell system a little that would improve the game quite a lot.Basically this part is about balance.They should require 2 months more on to the top of what they intended to.
"Bad" part "AI" shines like a bright star there.I wish the guys made a open source modable AI so that it could be tweaked after the release and such.I am sure the community would have found very nice twists to it.
Helpfull review by the way thanks!
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MegiddoZO
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 02, 2015 01:52 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Yesterday on the stream they made very clear they won't delay the game. So don't count with it.
Hmm, I see. I can already feel the pain of the devs and the extra hours they'll have to pull...that, or a rather messy half working version as a release version, with all the bads that come with that from the general public.
Was anything else of note said/done on this stream yesterday?
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 02:33 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 23:29, 02 Sep 2015.
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This thread is pages long: 
