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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 10:50 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:54, 01 Sep 2015.
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It's called controlled randomness, the kind that paths your way in a sensible manner, not hazardous. H7's randomness really irks me for the reasons Alcibiades mentioned above, so I actually stopped playing with it. You can feel the game was not made with randomness in mind, the mechanics and prerequisites were meant for free pick since the beginning.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 11:00 AM |
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Yeah me too, me and my friends can't get on any server or if I create one my friends can't get on it. May be because we are in Hungary? No problem with that until H7
Multiplayer battle watch will be deleted in final.
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 11:03 AM |
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Sylvan is really OP overpowered!
They got so many driads and so many pixies! Haven got half of the cores may be.
And so fast so many movements points in combat also flying creatures and have 3 shooters!! (Druid, Elf hunter, Treant)
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 11:08 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:09, 01 Sep 2015.
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Controlled randomness...hmmm It does sound contradicting.. In the end controlled randomness is closer to the full control system, than true randomness. When you have to pick smth random out of a pool with certain things it s not that random anymore.
Now can we be done with reasoning gynnastics and focus on balancing?
I didn t have the time to explore fully the beta2 and i m not that kind of player to immediately spot imbalances so i would appreciate if a more hardcore player gave some insight about that instead.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted September 01, 2015 11:10 AM |
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I'm starting to think that they implemented randomness in H7 this way, so people would hate it. Then, they could say: 'you see, our skill-pizza is better, you don't even like playing with randomness and you asked for it'.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 01, 2015 11:19 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Controlled randomness...hmmm It does sound contradicting.. In the end controlled randomness is closer to the full control system, than true randomness. When you have to pick smth random out of a pool with certain things it s not that random anymore.
Now can we be done with reasoning gynnastics and focus on balancing?
I didn t have the time to explore fully the beta2 and i m not that kind of player to immediately spot imbalances so i would appreciate if a more hardcore player gave some insight about that instead.
As if it was that hard to add some additional effects to certain skills and abilities, then have them prioritize - dark magic would be offered mostly to necromancers, but leastly for knights. As if it was that hard to do.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 11:21 AM |
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-.-
I do think they wnt to kill replayability so we buy more dlcs bit what u said sounds even more absurd than my tinfoi-hat speculation
Storm arrows. Too op? Sylvan, too op? Tsunami? Blade dancer too weak?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 01, 2015 11:57 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:00, 01 Sep 2015.
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ChrisD1 said:
Controlled randomness...hmmm It does sound contradicting.. In the end controlled randomness is closer to the full control system, than true randomness.
It's more something of playing the system. In the Heroes5 example, if you wanted to get a rare Skill or Perk (rare for that Hero class and faction), you could "play the system" to keep an available slot open while selecting other skills and perks to level up. Each time you do that, the game rerolls the chance for that rare skill or perk to appear in a level up. By maxing out skills, you take them out of the equation, giving more chance for other skills to appear.
Take the following, where your Hero levels up. The Hero has at least two open skill slots and one skill that isn't raised to the max yet. Furthermore, there are two skills you like for that Hero, that you didn't get yet. On level up, you get this:
- Existing skill: Expert -> Mastery
- New skill: One you'd like, but high change of getting it
Which do you pick?
At first consideration, you would say to get the new skill, so you have it in your batch of skills to level. However, statistically speaking, that's not smart. You would do better to raise the existing skill to Mastery, for one reason: on next level up, you would get two chances at a new skill being offered, so twice chance on the rare skill you're looking for (keep in mind also that you can't get the same skill on offer twice, so the odds are even higher)!
Now suppose on this level up, you get two skills you wish (both high odds), but not the rare one, and two perks. You'd still postpone getting a new skill, to maximize your odds of having the rare skill appear. The only reason to pick a new skill here is when both offered Perks are useless to your goals.
Yes, it's a more controlled random in that you play the system by generating more random rolls on the rare skill to appear, but each time it fails to provide it, you will push it ahead one level. And at the end of the day, it still remains a chance, no guarantee.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 12:15 PM |
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What they could do is removing the need for a perk in order to unlock the next skill level and only keep the perk as prerequisite for perks of the next level. If the system would be set up like this you could implement random system more akin to H5.
Btw, should it offer two random perks, or a basic perk and an advanced perk?
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 01:17 PM |
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my very last game has just ended, and its time for me to write down goods & bads shorlty. normally i dont want to write this down without further experience but simply increased technical issues made me tired and bored.
goods:
-local guards system.
-forticifaction progress.
-area control mechanics.
-music.
-adventure map layouts.
-adventure buildings.
-mixed neutral armies.
-lots of artifacts.
-resource system.
-new quick combat mechanics.
mehs:
-spell system.
-spells.
-hero leveling system & its balance.
-creature balance.
-racials.
-graphics (artistical. style & colors).
-artifact bonuses.
-battlemaps.
-warfare.
-outpost system.
-plunder mechanics.
bads:
-ai quality.
-ai speed.
-technical issues like game crushes.
-wrong info,text.
-access to info, text.
-graphics (technical. optimization, visibility & zooming).
----------------------------
have no idea part:
-2 remaining factions.
-multiplayer(its too broken so im simply unable to test it, sim turn looks good but it constantly getting crushes and seeing enemy battle is very a bad idea).
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VieuxSinge
Hired Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 01:22 PM |
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Auriga said:
Can someone ELI5 how to join multiplayer online game? I have opened port 7777 in my firewall but I always get message that I can't connect to server because of time out.
I fixed this by activating "DMZ" (and entering my own ip address) in my router's page
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 01:23 PM |
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@Chris
The past random system while is was controllable to a degree could still end up with a skill that you hadn't planned. This in turn could change the whole strategy on how to build the rest of the hero because even old games did have an "optimized"-build essentially. The difference is that the best possible build could change drastically because of what you got from RNG on level-up. Another thing is that you didn't get to choose in which order you get the skills or at what level you will get what skills/abilities. If you compare that to h7 or h6 you can make a list of what to get and when to get it following it each and every game because it's the "best" route to ultimate hero. As for the h7 random, that's just handicapping yourself because it's full random. You can't control it(without insane point spending and even then it's very very limited control) and on higher difficulties it could very well make it impossible to even win fights against neutrals because you never get any usable skills(by level 8 I didn't get single ability/skill I had wanted on the demo). The random system was complete after-though and the game is clearly not meant to be played with it.
And as for the balancing: the problem is that so many skills/abilities/spells/artifacts overlapse with each other having same effects/boosts which precisely allows you to create the demi-gods. Best case would be that a lot of those effects would get changed, decent fix would be to nerf them and worst case nothing gets changed and game will keep the optimized heroes you go for each and every game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 01, 2015 02:08 PM |
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Exactly, I took it for granted but when I said "I get what I want" in h3/5 I actually meant I have a build which I'm satisfied with, depending on what pops up.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 01, 2015 02:11 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 14:49, 01 Sep 2015.
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I really like what the skill system can be but it needs a couple of changes.
-Built around randomization. Not exactly a new sentiment (none will be) but It's true that the pizza needs to be designed with randomization in mind. Influenced randomization (certain classes will have bigger chances of certain skills) but randomization nonetheless.
-All skills for all classes. Every class should be able to learn every skill to tier 3. No exceptions. If i want to be a dark magic slinging knight I should be allowed to be a dark magic slinging knight. That being said, I can agree to grandmaster skills being unique to some classes/heroes.
-No perk dependencies for upgrading skills. Demanding you to pick a perk in a slice before adding another level of mastery forces you to specialize more into certain slices rather than picking from several different ones.
If these things were to happen it would probably be the best system in the franchise but as of right now it's pretty meh.
Oh, and no level ceiling. The only limitation should be amount of skills as in destiny/offense. Perks should be unlimited in this sort of system.
I also find the skills themselves to be very fun and frankly, rather deep. There are a lot of good combinations just waiting to be discovered: an obvious one is natures revenge and destiny. all lucky strikes do 200% damage and all strikes against enemies with three stacks of natures wrath are lucky? Good combo. Not the only one. Simurgh plus grandmaster prime. Fly in with a simurgh in the middle of enemies, cast Implosion then time stasis on the simurgh. Since it's super fast you'll likely get the first turn and be able to cast something else more damaging. Grandmaster diplomacy together with at least tier 2 economy has to be an amazing combination as well...
Just some random stuff I found out after minor lengths of playing with different classes.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 01, 2015 02:27 PM |
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@kiryu133:
Exactly this. I would also add increased number of skills with GM abilities and limited choice of GMs per hero and abilities per skill. The last one is especially important because when there is no limit in this aspect, random skill option gets very messy and chances of getting desired ability is very difficult.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 01, 2015 02:44 PM |
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Imo. the current system will never be "the best ever" in the series. The problem is not only the fact that all classes can't learn all skills, a problem that for me is at least as big is the limitation that you need to learn a perk before leveling up the skill to next level. This imo. forces you to develop a single skill for way too long in early game, because you need to use 5 skill points to get to Master Level (and 7 skill points to get to Grandmaster level) whereas previously you could develop a skill to Expert level with only 3 skill points and then leave perks til later. This imo. is bad because it forces you into thinking in singular skills rather than combinations of skills. The fact that you can learn all perks in a skill is also something I dislike because again, it seems generally more beneficial to max out one skill than the cross-skill. The fact that there's no interconnection between skills in terms of requirements is obviously another nail in this coffin.
Another critical problem with the system is that too many skills simply are crap. I've been going on about Paragon for a while, and like others have said, Explorer has been nerfed into uselesness. The large number of perks dedicated to govenor seems to reduce many choices to almost default which is another problem. And then there are those skills that are grossly overpowered, like Diplomacy. And of course we have the whole Arcane Knowledge/magic skill debacle.
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What will happen now?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 01, 2015 02:52 PM |
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alcibiades said:
The problem is not only the fact that all classes can't learn all skills, a problem that for me is at least as big is the limitation that you need to learn a perk before leveling up the skill to next level. This imo. forces you to develop a single skill for way too long in early game, because you need to use 5 skill points to get to Master Level (and 7 skill points to get to Grandmaster level) whereas previously you could develop a skill to Expert level with only 3 skill points and then leave perks til later.
Forgot that. added.
alcibiades said:
Another critical problem with the system is that too many skills simply are crap. I've been going on about Paragon for a while, and like others have said, Explorer has been nerfed into uselesness. The large number of perks dedicated to govenor seems to reduce many choices to almost default which is another problem. And then there are those skills that are grossly overpowered, like Diplomacy. And of course we have the whole Arcane Knowledge/magic skill debacle.
While some general balancing is needed, I can't say i completely agree. I've played several games with vastly different builds and found success with most of them. They are very situational in that you create the situations they are needed for. No perk truly feels useless except possibly exploration. That one needs a rework.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 02:56 PM |
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Edited by TD at 15:03, 01 Sep 2015.
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@alcibiades I agree with you on everything but the maxing out single skill with all the perks. I don't see that at all as beneficial. In general each skill has route 1, route 2 or route 3 to tell you which skills to get to get most benefit out of it(essentially might, magic and governor). For magic hero there is even less, in general you will want to get master ASAP and then get other schools for more mana/power. Also I agree that you shouldn't be able to learn as many abilities/perks you want. IMO 1 ability per skill-level would be much better and of course possibility to level skill without abilities like in past games. It would force player to think what he really needs(though at same time it would leave a lot of those useless abilities never picked considering they never get picked even now, but that's just part of the bad design-philosophy...)
Edit: @Kiryu explorer is worthless, but so is paragon at least on harder difficulties. If you in fact go for it early on you will face harder battles, losses and ultimately level slower than you did with optimal skills that allow constant battles with no losses. Furthermore paragon eats up a skill-slot from you, making it bad skill in the end. If you first get good combat skills, you are already at point the exp doesn't matter because you already level up so fast(about level per turn) that it makes it waste of skill-slot at this point. The bonus exp of 5% per skill-level is just too small to make it useful. Even mentoring was nerfed for some reason to 15% and it used to be the only reason why one might go for paragon IMO.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 03:06 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 15:09, 01 Sep 2015.
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TD said:
@Chris
The past random system while is was controllable to a degree could still end up with a skill that you hadn't planned. This in turn could change the whole strategy on how to build the rest of the hero because even old games did have an "optimized"-build essentially. The difference is that the best possible build could change drastically because of what you got from RNG on level-up. Another thing is that you didn't get to choose in which order you get the skills or at what level you will get what skills/abilities. If you compare that to h7 or h6 you can make a list of what to get and when to get it following it each and every game because it's the "best" route to ultimate hero. As for the h7 random, that's just handicapping yourself because it's full random. You can't control it(without insane point spending and even then it's very very limited control) and on higher difficulties it could very well make it impossible to even win fights against neutrals because you never get any usable skills(by level 8 I didn't get single ability/skill I had wanted on the demo). The random system was complete after-though and the game is clearly not meant to be played with it.
And as for the balancing: the problem is that so many skills/abilities/spells/artifacts overlapse with each other having same effects/boosts which precisely allows you to create the demi-gods. Best case would be that a lot of those effects would get changed, decent fix would be to nerf them and worst case nothing gets changed and game will keep the optimized heroes you go for each and every game.
I think we are just looking things through a really good microscope. and a little exaggeration is added. a single skill can change your whole strategy? out of the 6 or 8 slots you have? come on. I've played H3 and H5 numerous times and I never had to change my strategy or the way I was planning to build my hero from the start. it was only one little skill that had gone "wrong" or just two. and it still didn't affect me AT ALL. to change your whole strategy of the hero you must get at least half of your skills "wrong" . if you go full OCD (like i go sometimes) and decide that you need to build your hero around that skill that you got by "mistake" then it's completely subjective. there is no way to start the game and not get at least one choice of your liking.
also h7 random system does give you random skills though a specific pool(like h5 system and the increased possibilities to get smth closer to your class/faction) and h7 random system does not actually let you choose the order of your skills.
I'm not saying that everything is perfect and that H7 random equals H3/h5 random. but the differencies when you actually play, are extremely minor!!! in theory everything is different yeah.
and again i'll say that controllable randomness is contradicting. and I will repeat that this thing is way closer to h7 system (random or not) than you are willing to accept. and I've played random too and it was indeed hard and yes it was an afterthought but at level 8 i was happy with at least two skills of mine. i refuse to believe you were that unlucky. also i find difficult to believe that you don't like randomness like the one you got in h7 but you like, randomness that gives you a very high chance to get what you want but hate the fact that you can get what you want in heroes 7 free system -.-
the twitch started lets end this. i would admit that i'm being subjective but i'm not. because i understand that both systems have merits and faults. and that's the actual truth. you don't like this system. that's cool. but it's you. I don't like this system either but I can see its merits and i'm willing to try them.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 01, 2015 03:15 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
I'm not saying that everything is perfect and that H7 random equals H3/h5 random. but the differencies when you actually play, are extremely minor!!! in theory everything is different yeah.
Hardly minor when in H3/H5 one can learn any skill and they are prioritized, so a Knight will likely get Leadership and Light Magic than Dark Magic. If it is so illogical to have a knight cast dark magic, then there should be some restrictions (like that Fallen Knight ability).
All I am saying is there could've been better solutions, yet still retain randomness and the fact everyone can learn anything.
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This thread is pages long: 
