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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 01:19 AM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 01:24, 01 Sep 2015.
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TD said:
...but it still kept all the problems h6 had.
thats a claim that obviously very wrong. it may not have solved everthing from h6, but it surely solved some of them.
TD said:
Instead of might/magic limiting you from the third level abilities of h6, now you got classes that limit that with expert/master/GM.
there are restrictions in every homm game, that doesnt prove anything.
TD said:
Same with magic, h6 had "hated" magic school which limited school out for each faction, same is in effect with h7(like haven with dark-magic)
when i think about this, personally i find it very silly. imagine demons that are covered with magical water, and paladins covered with thick darkness.. simply logic defying... in gameplay-wise, its also too unpredictable, in a game like heroes where you need to make tactics againts your enemy, it eliminates every counter-tactic possibilities.
everyone can do everything?! 
TD said:
Picking skills falls down to optimization which is why you never go with different skills,
i dont agree at all. for 2 times, i picked 5 different novice skills, before going any GM path. rushing GM is not a must, you can be powerful with other ways too.
TD said:
in h6 you also had certain specific skills you always wanted.
i agree with this part because h6 had a very big design flaw h7 didnt have now: "creeping through heal/regeneration/ressurection".
every single faction repeated this by naturaly or by help of their racials/units.
haven? heal with light magic +sister.
necro? heal with racial + ghost...
...other factions? they were doomed to take regenration/heal skill/spell and rush tears path because they had to catch haven and necro.
TD said:
Unlike in h6 however in h7 you are actually much more limited because h7 only allows portion of skills which are defined by class and because you are limited to 5 skills you will essentially always have 3/5 or 4/5 skills pre-picked to make most of your hero before the game starts. And because most hero specializations blow big time you only have few heroes per faction to play limiting you even more.
theres no do-this-to-win certain type builds in h7, same assumption that i already answered above.
and the "limitation" you speak of, is acctually where the system shines again. only 1 or 2 heroes share the same skillset of 10 skills.. now thats the first part. second part is hero specs, which is still pretty much effective at game, esspecially in early game. so even if 2 heroes share the first part, they are still different from each other with second part... every faction has 6 classes.
now if we take a look at the big picture, its obvious that these combinations offer pretty high numbers in means of variety.
TD said:
...split(extra exp is now a skill rather than ability with paragon) or taken from unit/boss/dynasty abilities(same with spells).
why would you even care this? i dont get why you even use this as arguement? even in art, people copy things, theres no shuc thing as %100 original new things, creativity is always burrows somethings from past.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 01:24 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 01:29, 01 Sep 2015.
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To poor cleg's defence i ' ll say this as a hater of h6 skill system.
The basic function is the same indeed. You are free to pick anything.
Theoretically this kills replayability. And indeed practically H6 had zero of that.
But!!!!!! Little things here and there make the pizza and the table less similar,making the pizza somewhat more replay material than the table.
Grandmasters,different hero classes,arcane knowledge, mage guilds, having to unlock at least 1 skill of x rank before moving on, racials, way better and more skills.
Also lets not forget that h6 didn't have a random map. Of course you were going for the same build over and over.
When on a random map,though, situations may force you to get more creative than just going for the "one" build.
I found myself snatching some exploration although i couldn't even master it. I had to, though, since i hadn't gone for a second hero at that time.
And lets be honest. Who wasn't going for a specific build in H3 hoping he'd get it? And how many times did u get smth you didn't want? 2? 3¿ the rest was according to plan. And who from here didn't save before visiting a witch hut???? Hahah come on people.
I don't suddenly deny the merits of randomness but lets not treat it like the one and only true way of playing.
There wasn't one time i didn't go for the earth magic and the town portal,wisdom and logistics. Maybe i had a "surprise" ability here and there but nothing serious or affecting my playstyle.
In theory randomness wins and free-style sucks. When playing everything changes. It s too early to tell for sure, if we all don't play ten different maps with various classes and factions.
As for minasli this is a balancing issue. Irrelevant with the lack of randomness. If minasli was in heroes 3 i guarantee that everyone would go for the water magic mastery too.
Lets not kid ourselves till we thoroughly play the game.
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Manta
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 02:02 AM |
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One of the things I like about H7 is the skill wheel
Sure, it has some flaws but I prefer it to the way skills worked in other heroes games
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 02:04 AM |
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@Cleglaw
1. What did it NOT solve? I can't find single answer to this aside spells not being skills.
2. Actually in h5 you can master might and magic so not EVERY game.
3. Well fire is the chaos and destruction manifesto that's school for haven... By same reasoning this should be banned. And then there are the fallen knights like in h5 so they cannot exist? Right...
4. I did try some combos early on, but once you learn which are not good skills/combos you'll learn what to get, don't worry. As for GMs, I partly agree. I didn't see much need for those when boosting magic for mage seemed much wiser and effective, thus the optimization problem. Why get some prime-magic GM to get 2nd turn to cast spell at -15 spell-power early on when you end up with 0 spell-power for it...
5. What exactly has changed essentially? Now you don't have regeneration, but you can easily creep on hard at least with no losses anyway. All you need is skill X and go with it. You pick your strategy before the match starts and stick with it till it ends. Like me with academy + minasli + water magic = ice bolt/circle of winter/tsunami and spam it for all the battles. Or with haven I tried some diplo-hero and gathered massive army that never took any losses. Every faction has the few heroes as I said that you can easily formulate formula for invincibility.
6. No sure formula for win? That's yes and no. If we assume we have smart player against us they will have to either go with the optimal skills or counter skills. Like for example my academy hero could only be potentially countered by even stronger mage who can cast first or you could use luck GM and hope for the best or on small map warmachine hero. Can might-hero boost magic-resistance/proof somehow enough so for example my tsunami doesn't kill 40-70 elites per stack in single turn? Or how long does the game have to be so that kind of loss isn't bad. And when we go longer I get the 2nd turn to cast magic, so how much bigger does your stack have to be to deal with some 30% implosion + tsunami for example? But as I said this is really a balancing matter ultimately.
7. Devs cannibalized as much as humanly possible from h6 which only makes it feel and look like h6. Tell me why I wouldn't bring it up if they are the same things from h6 just edited for h6.7? The whole point was to show how the system is like in h6 so it's very fitting IMO to bring out that they have a lot of the very same things because they essentially are the same. If it walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck it's very likely a duck.
I have tried both systems, they feel very very much the same to me. Both lack replay-value which was one of the biggest problems with h6. Rather h7 has even less of that because you can get the same boosts from so many places they feel totally generic. The skill-system is just so incredibly boring to be frank, it lacks unique aspects, has ton of overlapse and is all about optimizing your hero. To put it in other words, it's just like h6!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 01, 2015 02:05 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Who wasn't going for a specific build in H3 hoping he'd get it? And how many times did u get smth you didn't want? 2? 3¿ the rest was according to plan. And who from here didn't save before visiting a witch hut???? Hahah come on people.
But that's the beauty of it, you hope to get the perfect built. If you can have it the same way you do the groceries, where is the thrill. On top of it, once you knew the system, it was very rare to get more than one "useless" skill, not a deal breaker if you have seven others you're satisfied with, so most of -if not all the time I get what I want in Heroes III. Reload after Witch Hut? Sure we all did it, but usually is clever to have a secondary who checked it beforehand. And even so, so what, you get an unwanted skill does this mean the game is over? I think not, if early game, that hero can become secondary, if already advanced, you should be able to cope with it. Not to mention handicap and injustice can be fun, especially if a hotseat with a friend.  Also, in both h3.5 and h5.5 the witch hut can propose you if you want the skill or not, so there, you're safe. Personally I prefer the wilderness but just to say there is no reason to not put this easy fix, which could ideally be optional before launch, instead of removing the hut from the game.
Past mistakes exists for being corrected, not necessarily removed, I think.
Aside for the ones from Heroes 6, these has to be o-b-l-i-t-e-r-a-t-e-d.
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Manta
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 02:10 AM |
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Edited by Manta at 02:18, 01 Sep 2015.
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in my opinion some spell casting should be reduced in power
cause, with tsunami I can easily destroy armies with a deadly threat level compared to mine with few losses
I've found plenty of replay value in H7 though, much better than H6...maybe I'm just part of the minority though
the biggest problems for me are that the AI is horrendous and spells are too powerful. And of course random crashes, but even with all these problems I'm still enjoying the game.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 02:22 AM |
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Manta said:
With tsunami I can easily destroy armies with a deadly threat level compared to mine with few losses
How do you take losses with tsunami... You can kill 150-200 elite size-stacks easily without losses(not counting single-stack dummies) if you build your hero right... And a lot of the skills need balancing. You can do insane boosting of single thing like spell-power which results in precisely 0 loss-battles all the time. I did that in demo and beta both with several heroes and it's ridiculously easy to make heroes into demi-gods who essentially kill everything(be it directly or via buffs/debuffs on troops).
They put way too much overlapse in skills/abilities/spells/artifacts which results you in getting insanely powerful buffs when you combine them
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Manta
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 02:25 AM |
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TD said:
Manta said:
With tsunami I can easily destroy armies with a deadly threat level compared to mine with few losses
How do you take losses with tsunami... You can kill 150-200 elite size-stacks easily without losses(not counting single-stack dummies) if you build your hero right... And a lot of the skills need balancing. You can do insane boosting of single thing like spell-power which results in precisely 0 loss-battles all the time. I did that in demo and beta both with several heroes and it's ridiculously easy to make heroes into demi-gods who essentially kill everything(be it directly or via buffs/debuffs on troops).
They put way too much overlapse in skills/abilities/spells/artifacts which results you in getting insanely powerful buffs when you combine them
I don't care about optimizing my hero, so maybe thats why I'm not completely invincible
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 02:45 AM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 02:58, 01 Sep 2015.
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TD said:
aside spells not being skills.
so you admit something... eh, its better then nothing.
TD said:
Actually in h5 you can master might and magic so not EVERY game.
because they dont have any real identity at all... and thats acctually a flaw.
TD said:
Well fire is the chaos and destruction manifesto that's school for haven... By same reasoning this should be banned. And then there are the fallen knights like in h5 so they cannot exist? Right...
a fallen knight is not a knight anymore, just like the lucifer which is not considered angel anymore(just to give an example).
TD said:
I did try some combos early on, but once you learn which are not good skills/combos you'll learn what to get, don't worry. As for GMs, I partly agree. I didn't see much need for those when boosting magic for mage seemed much wiser and effective, thus the optimization problem. Why get some prime-magic GM to get 2nd turn to cast spell at -15 spell-power early on when you end up with 0 spell-power for it...
this is just an assumption born from not believing in "balance". those skills.. spells.. abilities... they are essentially exist off from values and they are to be set in stone.. if not by devs, by fans. eventually.
TD said:
What exactly has changed essentially? Now you don't have regeneration, but you can easily creep on hard at least with no losses anyway.
but not with 1 tactic that is achievable in all heroes/factions.
this is the important part. even if you creep, you will be doing this through various ways. "result" is not the only reason why we play games... and even taking this further, "result" is the last reason why we play.
TD said:
All you need is skill X and go with it. You pick your strategy before the match starts and stick with it till it ends.
with the elements like magic guilds/adventure building/random maps, you cant guarentee that you will really "stick with it till the end"...
.
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sorry but i have to say, rest of what you said, the parts that i didnt used to quote, are just self-repeating words that are consisting no real response.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 03:30 AM |
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1. So can't really come up with anything different yourself either...? Not that I was expecting you to find the systems otherwise different since they aren't.
2. Actually IMO h5 had the most unique versions because of the abilities. They could give that guardian angel to haven, goblin cart to orcs or imbued ballista for sylvan as examples. Most skills had something unique for faction or for few factions(like half the factions had warlocks luck). It made all factions distinctive and allowed them their own strategies. I also liked the school-divide in h5 though h4 had the best schools IMO.
3. So you bypassed the illogical part which is in this game, yet use the same arguement for the game..? Nice... But yes I agree h6.7 has a lot of illogical things!
4. So I shouldn't judge what is given at us currently but rather what is possibly in the future..? What if this game died few months after launch..? That would mean I'm being too kind on the game by same logic since I've long said this game could have potential to become good game with extensive modding...
5. Why not? My game from first demo as academy was exactly the same as my first game with dungeon. I had single stack of shooters and hero spammed same spell over and over again at enemy. The effect was different, tactic essentially the exact same. And compared to other matches that didn't really change ever. You start with usually single-target spell, move on to aoe spell(which may very well be essentially the single-target spell turned into aoe) and then you get level 4 spells and spam that or one of the previous two spells. All the battles even with different factions felt the exact same to. With might there was at least small differences, but for mages it was very much the same. This is yet again another problem that comes from having so similar spell-schools. All schools have a little bit of everything. In fact light-magic is only one I never tried as I recall. If schools felt like they truly specialized in some specific type of spells instead of having something for everything this might be a different story.
You say result isn't everything, but if my battle consists of me pressing "1" on top of enemy/enemies and shooting(or defending) and repeating that every turn every battle don't you seriously agree that it's pretty much the same thing over and over? There is no reason for me to change such strong strategy that gives no losses(for gods sake this is the whole problem with the optimization!). And each game I have gotten at the very least 1 spell to use, generally more than that since I got with the faction favourite school. This is result of the another problems with magic, having so little spells per school.(well that answered your last quote too)
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Manta
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 05:14 AM |
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Edited by Manta at 05:17, 01 Sep 2015.
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maybe its just me but I don't see anything illogical with fire being given to haven and I play each faction differently. Maybe its cause I prefer not focusing on magic and I use every single troop available in the faction even if its not much use
actually I don't like using shooters that much either, so I usually focus on melee
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 07:41 AM |
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Galaad said:
ChrisD1 said:
Who wasn't going for a specific build in H3 hoping he'd get it? And how many times did u get smth you didn't want? 2? 3¿ the rest was according to plan. And who from here didn't save before visiting a witch hut???? Hahah come on people.
But that's the beauty of it, you hope to get the perfect built. If you can have it the same way you do the groceries, where is the thrill. On top of it, once you knew the system, it was very rare to get more than one "useless" skill, not a deal breaker if you have seven others you're satisfied with, so most of -if not all the time I get what I want in Heroes III. Reload after Witch Hut? Sure we all did it, but usually is clever to have a secondary who checked it beforehand. And even so, so what, you get an unwanted skill does this mean the game is over? I think not, if early game, that hero can become secondary, if already advanced, you should be able to cope with it. Not to mention handicap and injustice can be fun, especially if a hotseat with a friend. Also, in both h3.5 and h5.5 the witch hut can propose you if you want the skill or not, so there, you're safe. Personally I prefer the wilderness but just to say there is no reason to not put this easy fix, which could ideally be optional before launch, instead of removing the hut from the game.
Past mistakes exists for being corrected, not necessarily removed, I think.
Aside for the ones from Heroes 6, these has to be o-b-l-i-t-e-r-a-t-e-d.
You hope to get the perfect build but you always get it like you always get it by choosing. You are "falsely" in danger by a silly skill. But in the end of the line both methods give u the same thing. And yeah ok the thrill was there and the journey matters more than the destination but I still get a thrill by leveling up and eventually learning that skill that I needed then
I really hoped the free picking would be banned,and we 'd have a heroes 5 method. I believe it was a huge mistake. And I still do. I even made a vow to myself to never play this game on "free". But I did play on free and it wasn't that bothersome. That' all I'm saying.
I'm curious to see for myself and in action how the different classes differentiate themselves from one another.
So I could even write a book about how this system is horrible and in theory it is horrrible. But theory is just theory.
I tried the free thingy and i did have to think about my next skill given the circumstances on the map. Things got strategic
So since it s here to stay,this pizza, lets give it a chance. And indeed the random system is clearly smth they didn't want there,yet it kinda works... I wish they'd tweak it a little bit more.
As for the content of the pizza,yes you should have more choices.
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VieuxSinge
Hired Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 09:03 AM |
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I think I'm not the first one to say this but here I go
cons:
-IA is way too slow, this kills the game against bots
-Being forced to see other humans'fights kills the purpose of sim turns
-Being forced to see other humans'fight (even your opponents' ones) give way too much info about your opponents units and heroes
-Skill pizza and specialization is boring
-Heroes should have at least 3 more movement point by default
-Exploration seems underwhelming (+1movement point, really?)
pros:
-Game is beautiful
-I like the fights
-Shows great potential
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MegiddoZO
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 01, 2015 09:10 AM |
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I don't really see the problem some of you guys are making with the skillwheel. You do know there's an option in making your games so that you get skills randomly like HOMM3, right? You can just go for this if you see yourself choosing the same tree over and over again and you don't feel any variation.
Of course, don't get me wrong, there's still very much a balancing issue. For example, a mate of mine took Academy's Jahari hero, who starts with warfare and just put all his points straight into getting that one grandmaster at level 8 or so, which allowed him to easily win deathly rank battles vs champions with just a couple of gargoyles on him, and then just cheese turns and let his Small Pyramid handle everything.
Of course, simply nerfing it wouldn't be a good solution: It'd make it useless in endgame, and if you went for random skills instead of the skillwheel, you'll probably get it around level 20-30 instead, and would feel completely underwhelming. No, they need to build in some level scaling with this based on the level of your hero, or this and many other strategies will either be completely broken or completely underwhelming.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 09:28 AM |
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I find it difficult to see which abilities I have unlocked. For example it would help if the edge would glow after unlocking.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 09:34 AM |
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Indeed grand mastering needs a mid-high level prerequisite.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 01, 2015 10:00 AM |
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MegiddoZO said:
You do know there's an option in making your games so that you get skills randomly like HOMM3, right?
You are still limited to the 10 skills assigned to your Hero class, however. So random? No, it's a fallacy.
In any case, the system of H7 is very much more closely to H6 than anything else. Both can be planned out completely before a game starts, even if you know relatively little of the map you'll be playing on. Both systems allow for progress through skill tiers in a free-format style. The difference is that H7 has organised it differently: spells have been taken out and perks have been added, as branches to the various skill tiers. In H6, the only distinction between Expert and Mastery came in the distinction between Might and Magic Heroes. In H7, they refined that down to the different class skillwheels. Essentially, though, it's the same concept.
The random nature (true random in that you could get any skill, only some were banned for some Hero types, like Necromancy for all non-Necropolis Heroes) of H3 meant that even if you wanted to go for an optimal build, the order in which you acquired the skills would differ greatly and sometimes you wouldn't acquire a specific skill at all or be forced to take a skill you didn't plan to get. This had quite an impact on how you had to handle the hurdles you encountered in the game. Through numerous different games, the skills available to your Hero at any given level would diverge at the early levels and converge again at higher levels. Most games were played in the early- to mid-levels, however; only campaign Heroes usually reached their full potential.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 01, 2015 10:26 AM |
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In addition to what Maurice says, the random system of H7 isn't controlled random like H5 but absolute random (within the confines of 10 skills) which kills the point of the system. In H5, you knew you'd always be offered a) upgrade of one skill (if possible, otherwise new skill), b) one new skill, c) a choice between two perks, which meant you could manipulate the system to get the skills you wanted. Maxing out high-chance skills and leaving off perks would give you double-chance to have a rare skill pop up, which could give you the interesting builds (like Inferno Light magic or Sylvan War Machines).
H7 just throws two random skills and perks at you without any logic plus you always have to pick a perk before you can upgrade a skill further, which means there's no sensible way you can manipulate the system to work for you - which in time kills the entire point of the randomness imo.
____________
What will happen now?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 10:37 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 10:41, 01 Sep 2015.
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@maurice
As i said in theory randomness is perfect.
in heroes 3 you did have an optimal build in your mind before starting the game. It's not like randomness presented you with skills you ve never seen before. And you usually got what you wanted with a couple(maximum) minor hiccups. The end-game is exactly the same. You get what you want. The procedure did change,and yes that part made it fun and I'll give you that. But that's just that. It may have the same core mechanic as heroes 6 in theory,but when playing i do get a very different feel. Plus classes and racials make a huge difference.
I do agree though that we need a couple more choices on that wheel.
Lots of stuff need balancing but that has nothing to do with the lack of randomness.
@alcibiades
I really can't handle this logic. So you want random but not completely random, so you can get what you really want, but once you have the choice of getting what you want freely you do not want it.
-.- dudes come on lets talk about balancing instead, it will be way morr constructing and might lead to a nice list for the devs for future patches.
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Auriga
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 01, 2015 10:47 AM |
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Can someone ELI5 how to join multiplayer online game? I have opened port 7777 in my firewall but I always get message that I can't connect to server because of time out.
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