|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted December 16, 2015 01:46 PM |
|
|
markkur said:
JollyJoker said:
Actually, it's pretty easy to see what >>>makes religion suck:<<<...INDIVIDUALLY.
JJ there is nothing Jolly about you these days. You've became what you rant about next...
JollyJoker said:
...tell everyone else how bad they are, how clueless, what is right, what is wrong, that god wants this, and god wants that, and everyone has to follow ...
I guess I missed it in this thread? What little bit I've read here about Christ has been from on the defense.
You mean stuff like
Quote:
Atheist are usually bad people .
?
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 02:13 PM |
|
|
to be fair, "internet atheists" tends to be snows
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 02:27 PM |
|
|
Everybody who needs/uses internet for claiming some personal specificity or ideas tends to be a snow, because this is how you act when you have an agenda to fill. it goes same for religion, politics, sexual orientations, racial argues and so on.
My grand mother used to be very religious, she used to pray every morning and evening. I was a moron and was daily mocking on her faith, then she only had a quiet and peaceful smile and never answered back. But I know that every time I mocked, she added something to her prayers, about God forgiving me, as I was young and fool.
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 03:19 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 04 Jan 2016. |
Edited by Neraus at 15:23, 16 Dec 2015.
|
@JJ
Come on! That was a guy stating something, you didn't see me lash out against Serafim, even though he was incredibly offensive, why don't you all calm down instead of continuing to have this mentality of warring against one another.
kiryu133 said:
Christianity is an asset-flip. seriously, there's nothing original about it! For example the cross is a repurposed, Egyptian ankh (the historical crosses used to crucify jesus(IF THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME) looked much different) and the Noah story is from Mesopotamia at a much earlier stage.
either way, do what you want. your faith is your own damn business, not anyone else's. I don't want to hear snow about how I live wrong or how I'm a sexual degenerate or whatever. Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.
Which is also related to why I dislike the two Abrahahimic religions (jews don't have that problem) so much since they're all about getting everyone involved. Especially Christianity and the catholic church in particular which has also perverted the original messages, turning the salvation of sins into a damn business.
You do you, I do me, don't pretend like you know how I should do me. Because you don't. Or what JJ said.
Probably came out as more antagonistic than intended...
And the Pope's hat is a direct copy of a fish-priest's hat, or whatever that cult was.
Romans had the Saturnalia in this period, the Norse had Yuletide, did the Norse copy the Romans or did the Romans copy the Norse?
Or, did any religion copy one another when regarding winter solstices? Coincidences happen, but of course we always attribute an intention that may have never been there.
The term pontifex is Latin, and indicated another career, and now it's a title of the Pope.
But pontifex means maker of bridges, which means it can be attributed to the Pope, like lucifer as an adjective can be attributed to Christ, while as a name indicates the Devil.
Of course you can find Noah's story in Mesopotamia earlier than the Hebrews, Mesopotamia, or for that matter, in all of the world, it's supposed to be a shared story, since Noah and his family were the only survivors of mankind, if all men descended from him they would have shared the tale of how he survived the flood.
And by the way, Hebrews come from Ur, in Mesopotamia, then they travelled along the Middle East before settling in Palestine, or Israel, depending on your side.
You then should also bring up the anomaly of the crucifixion of Jesus then, Romans used to crucify criminals usually using ropes, they instead nailed Christ to the cross, also, the position of the trasversal piece can be put in different heights, as it's supposed to sustain the arms, and as such a top piece can emerge if placed lower.
But since there are coincidences then automatically Christianity is a copy of ancient Sumeric religions, Assyrian cults, Canaanite practices, Hermetic traditions, Greek philosophy, Roman doctrines and Jew holy books. Without talking about Indian and Meso-American religious influences. Quetzalcoatl was born of a virgin, and Christians copied that to enslave the poor Romans, and the trinity was devised from Induistic doctrines.
Also, I once explained the whole affair with indulgences and how everything was a misunderstanding from both the Church, who believed the scribes were simply selling indulgences as they were, the reduction of punishment in purgatory, and from the people, who believed that through payment they could go to Heaven.
But apart from that.
This last part is also for JJ
I see people get uppity when people talk about Christianity, what apparently people don't understand is that it's mandated to spread the word, it's an act of solidarity and charity, now, suppose for a moment that you believe you love everyone unconditionally, and that you believe in an eternal punishment, you also believe that only through certain teachings people will avoid that punishment, the next step is that this hypothetical person will jump out of his home to save everybody.
Sincere people try to bring you to Christianity because they wish you no harm both in earth and out of earth.
Believers won't want to die knowing that if only they pressed a little bit further they could have saved someone from hell.
That is the same reason we Catholics do masses for the dead, or pray for the dead altogether, as it spares them time from purgatory, lessening the suffering they need to endure to go to Heaven.
Live knowing you have no obligation to accept us, you are free to see us as fear-mongers.
But I'll reply anyway if something catches my eye, or do you think that as a Christian I can't talk about my religion? Or maybe only you can talk about your rejection?
Anyway, trying to convince people not to speak with you or other unbelievers is like asking them to insult God in a way, since you are basically asking them to stop from doing something that is mandated.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 03:35 PM |
|
|
Neraus said:
Of course you can find Noah's story in Mesopotamia earlier than the Hebrews, Mesopotamia, or for that matter, in all of the world, it's supposed to be a shared story, since Noah and his family were the only survivors of mankind, if all men descended from him they would have shared the tale of how he survived the flood.
And by the way, Hebrews come from Ur, in Mesopotamia, then they travelled along the Middle East before settling in Palestine, or Israel, depending on your side.
You will actually do well if you don't point out these topics, there are pretty trivial scientific explanations for all of them which won't help you prove your point. "The Flood story is widespread because Noah's descendants told us about it" won't survive even high school criticism, it is well-established that the Flood myths exist much before the Jews came up with Noah - Gilgamesh's epic for instance is certainly an earlier version. You may want to assume that Christianity or even Old Testament Judaism originated themselves, with zero external influence, directly following God's design uniquely among all other social and even natural phenomenons around us but any scientific analysis on the matter will then just ignore you.
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 03:40 PM |
|
Edited by Neraus at 15:41, 16 Dec 2015.
|
The first part is the reason why it makes sense strictly in a biblical sense.
The second part is the reason why it makes sense in an historical sense, as Hebrews, descending from Sumerians may have inherited a story.
Abraham came from Ur, that's the point.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 04:08 PM |
|
|
From an outside perspective, the fact that all the stuff that makes up Christianity primarily comes from other sources and in later times (see christening of Scandinavia) overtly used re purposed pagan celebrations in order to sell the religion...
It makes the whole thing come off as false, fabricated or planned. Insincere, if you will. Seeing it as that, are you surprised people don't want anything to do with it?
Again, believe and do whatever you want to believe or do. If it gives ya comfort that's awesome. But if anyone try and limit me or who I am or what I do I'll fight back. This mostly applies to Christianity as that's the only thing that tries to do anything about me (never gotten anything from any Muslim. Truly we must fear their takeover!(That's some political satire for ya all!)) though that is probably due to living in a christian-dominated part of the world.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 04:14 PM |
|
|
@ Neraus
I'm currently somewhat short of time for a full answer, but just one thing:
Quote:
what apparently people don't understand is that it's mandated to spread the word, it's an act of solidarity and charity, now, suppose for a moment that you believe you love everyone unconditionally, and that you believe in an eternal punishment, you also believe that only through certain teachings people will avoid that punishment, the next step is that this hypothetical person will jump out of his home to save everybody.
Sincere people try to bring you to Christianity because they wish you no harm both in earth and out of earth.
Believers won't want to die knowing that if only they pressed a little bit further they could have saved someone from hell.
That's EXACTLY the reason(s) why there was an inquisition, that's EXACTLY the reason(s) why the inquisition would go out of their ways to save souls, that's exactly why they thought, ending the earthly life and gaining heaven was worth more than the other way round.
Quote:
That is the same reason we Catholics do masses for the dead, or pray for the dead altogether, as it spares them time from purgatory, lessening the suffering they need to endure to go to Heaven.
Look - if I'm wrong and this god of yours REALLY does exist, you have to understand that I won't grovel before someone who is prepared to let me suffer a small eternity, but can be made a little more mercifully-minded by mass grovelings of others.
That's a too pagan belief for me in a too barbaric deity for my liking.
I could also go on and say that capitalism would have been impossible without protestantism and the belief material success was god's way to show his satisfaction with you (and vice versa), so I'm a wee bit sceptical about the reality of "selflessness" - it isn't selfless when you do something because you believe it will help you.
There is the Bible. There are churches. There are preachers. There is even religion TV. In our world, everyone who has a slight interest can get as much preaching and rescuing as they want - we don't live in the stone age anymore, where people have to wander around the world to bring everyone the good news.
Also, people can read nowadays, at least in the 1st world.
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 05:17 PM |
|
Edited by Neraus at 17:17, 16 Dec 2015.
|
@JJ
Banks were created in Italy, usury was an Italian practice and trading in the Middle Ages was done almost exclusively by Italians.
The middle class was born in Italy, read the "Canzionere" of Boccaccio, you'll see how the relatively recent bourgeois would act at the time. Capitalism was born in Italy, and then flourished abroad, and Italy hasn't ever been Protestant.
You seem to believe that believers have no freedom to choose, just as you decide not to follow God why should other Christians (even if at that point it becomes contradictory) not follow certain things? It's their loss.
And then, protestants gleefully ignore whatever isn't useful for them, why then there should be predestination for example? Or saying that the Bible requires no interpretation or whatever.
By the way, when I talk about Christianity I usually leave out protestants, with sects selling out to states and strictly heretical movements I can't answer for them.
There are bad apples, if you use those bad examples to represent a group then saying "Atheists are immoral" is correct, since there are immoral atheists.
You seem to misunderstand the Roman inquisition, first off, as usual, they get attributed far more executions than usual, secondly, they were simply a tribunal, one that required a rigorous procedure to continue and three witnesses at least, and lastly, whatever execution was done by the secular government.
Other inquisitions, like the Spanish inquisition (obligatory Monty Phyton reference here) were mostly a political tool, they were formed to basically be an extension of the Roman inquisition, but they tended to get awry since they were under the state of residence.
And by the way, am I an inquisitor? Or for that matter any Christian you've met in your life? You do realize that the inquisition has been disbanded.
I'd like your opinion on missionaries, they spread the word of God out of Europe, were they as bad as inquisitors?
Also, purgatory isn't a small eternity, it isn't a punishment given by God and isn't even a realm per se, it's somewhat of a requirement for somebody to see God. In a way you burn at the sight of God since at that point you realize all the errors of your life and the light purifies you of your guiltiness, just as here on earth when one repents for something he feels terrible.
Praying is a religious thing, it isn't pagan or Christian exclusively, so why is it pagan to pray for the dead? Especially when you believe that souls are immortal.
Don't take it on me if others do not leave you alone, I tried to explain to you why they're so zealous, if they think you need some leverage how can I tell them something?
@kiryu
You feel defensive when we talk to you, but the irony is that then we are talked down, aren't we supposed to retaliate too?
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 05:40 PM |
|
|
Neraus said:
@kiryu
You feel defensive when we talk to you, but the irony is that then we are talked down, aren't we supposed to retaliate too?
Absolutely. As I said, I probably come across as more antagonistic than I intend and this is the Christianity thread so I'll speak my mind on the subject and my mind is on the "leave me the snow alone" type deal so naturally it'll sound defensive 
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 08:22 PM |
|
|
@ Neraus
You are very misinformed, but it doesn't make sense to debate with religious fanatics, all the less so in a thread titled "Talking about Christianity" when it seems you have a very clear idea which Christians are actually Christians and which are heretics.
We are all free to believe what we want, but we are also free in accepting or denying "gifts", and I deny the blessings of a religion that isn't even following its supposed principles within their own ranks.
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 08:44 PM |
|
|
Neraus I disagree some of the things you say, but they are you'r opinios, okay. If a foot would say to hand, you are not part of the body, would it still be part of it?
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 08:44 PM |
|
Edited by Neraus at 20:52, 16 Dec 2015.
|
@JJ
Then enlighten me, if I'm misinformed you should tell me what I'm missing. I could have dismissed you far earlier, but I was interested in what you had to say, but alright, if you want to be that way.
@Homer
Consider the following:
We take cult A and cult B
Cult A believes in a God, they also believe that some special persons have a certain importance. They believe that there is a way to have God physically on earth.
Cult B believes in a God, they also believe that some special persons have a certain importance. They believe that God is only in Heaven.
If I'm a proponent of cult A I can't say that Cult B is the same exact thing, as cult B denies one of my tenets, as one of cult B can't say that the two cults are the same.
If a foot talks to the hand isn't the same thing as it supposes they are part of the same thing, a foot is only different in form than a hand, but substantially they are made of the same materials.
If it was just a matter of form I'd have no problems in universally accepting the variations, but there is a change in substance which means that some problems arise.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 08:47 PM |
|
|
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!!!
But He loves you.
Gotta love George Carlin 
I know some of you can take a joke  Homer for example. Anyways to the question, how relevant is the fear of Hell to you Christians? In Finland 1/3 of priests don't believe in Hell at all. That was surprising to me.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 08:59 PM |
|
|
But isn't that more catholicism/judaism? While in protestantism, everyone is forgiven as jesus sacrificed himself for our sins?
We'd a priest who broadcasted on radio thoughts about reincarnation and got heavily penalized by the bishop..
I'm not sure how I feel about this. If she was there as a knowledge person on the subject of christianity (her chosen profession), and she spoke with authority on matters that has nothing to do with it.., then it makes sense. But if it was a program that wasn't about teaching christianity, then in my opinion her profession shouldn't make her opinion punishable. Beside I like people thinking outside the box, mixing different ideas from different cultures or religions.
We also had a priest who openly declared he didn't believe in God.. he was also penalized, perhaps he even lost his job, I can't quite remember.
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 09:05 PM |
|
|
In the eyes of outsiders we seem to fear hell a lot.
I do, and maybe some old ladies in Church.
But I don't seem to find too many folks who fear hell here, I don't know if it has to do with people hoping for mercy more than before or some new thing I missed according to which there is no hell.
Just some days ago I was discussing with some people (all Catholics from my town) regarding the existence of hell, you'd be surprised to know that in a group of 10 we were in 3 to still believe in punishment and the other two weren't exactly sure of what you'd have to do to go to hell.
But, this is what I've observed, I may be deathly wrong and people actually fear hell more than me.
@Ohforf
It depends on what denomination, as I understand there are denominations that believe in Hell.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 10:53 PM |
|
Edited by Homer171 at 23:00, 16 Dec 2015.
|
Minion said:
I know some of you can take a joke Homer for example. Anyways to the question, how relevant is the fear of Hell to you Christians? In Finland 1/3 of priests don't believe in Hell at all. That was surprising to me.
Yeah, in Finland most priests are liberal and it's the current state of christianity around the world I think. I find it real stupidity, that people who don't beliave in it themself, preaches it to others, how hypocrisy is that? Well, it's just a "job" for somepeople. Weddings, funerals and baptizing, 'don't need a faith for that', view. I'm definetly not a liberal myself but i found word: Conversative, little old for my taste.
I think God has great sense humor, we should learn for that. About Hell, now did I say God where funny? Sorry, that was stupid, this is sirious. There are some different view of this subject but most beliave hell is eternal, minority things that soul 'destroys' in hell (adventism) as the 'eteranal judgement'. What is eternal, where there is no time at all you might ask. I do beliave in hell but I don't fear it. It's already settled in God's part aim saved, hallelujah Can I mess things up and still go to hell? Not likely, if aim turning against God, cursing Him or murdering people cold blood, suicide is also VERY bad but imo persons sanity does count too, other than that, pretty safe from hell, yeah.
Fear of hell. I rather fear God as a person, if I have suicide ideas, I don't think I could watch God in His eyes, after done it. He who gave life, I would throw it away, dishonoring my Creator, now that would be big thing to swallow. Jesus talked several times about hell to his DISCIPLES so it is relevant. Ball is throwed to us, it's not easy to have such knowlage that just about everyone is doomed. Do I go to door-to-door shouting FIRE! FIRE! Or do I wait, the right time and ask from my naibor, do you have insurance in your house? It might worked in days of sword and axe but it really is not the best way to start: Do you know what is waiting for you in afterlife whit lifestyle like that? Now I would punch him in the face, in 'old life'. I have seen somepeople here doing it and it's quite embarrassing to say the least. Of course it's great if people realize from what destinity they get saved from, but first things first.
Too many stuck into this hell. I don't even think anyone could get 'saved' by just trying avoiding hell. In comparison, my view of HEAVEN is quite larger than it's of hell.
EDIT: By 'seen somepeople here doing it' I mean in Finland, not talked about HC, just to clarify 
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
|
|
OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted December 16, 2015 11:11 PM |
|
|
I think educating and applying for work you have no desire for is a trend that permeates many different career lines. Important jobs will grant more money and prestige, exactly because they're important so you need people who truly care deeply about the subject. In stead you occasionally see doctors who hardly cares about their patients and similar sad stuff.
____________
Living time backwards
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted December 17, 2015 08:22 AM |
|
|
Neraus said:
Of course you can find Noah's story in Mesopotamia earlier than the Hebrews, Mesopotamia, or for that matter, in all of the world, it's supposed to be a shared story, since Noah and his family were the only survivors of mankind, if all men descended from him they would have shared the tale of how he survived the flood.
And by the way, Hebrews come from Ur, in Mesopotamia, then they travelled along the Middle East before settling in Palestine, or Israel, depending on your side.
You then should also bring up the anomaly of the crucifixion of Jesus then, Romans used to crucify criminals usually using ropes, they instead nailed Christ to the cross, also, the position of the trasversal piece can be put in different heights, as it's supposed to sustain the arms, and as such a top piece can emerge if placed lower.
But since there are coincidences then automatically Christianity is a copy of ancient Sumeric religions, Assyrian cults, Canaanite practices, Hermetic traditions, Greek philosophy, Roman doctrines and Jew holy books. Without talking about Indian and Meso-American religious influences. Quetzalcoatl was born of a virgin, and Christians copied that to enslave the poor Romans, and the trinity was devised from Induistic doctrines.
"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"
The South American hub of myths and the Middle-Eastern one are separated as can be expected, however, some similarities you can come upon like birth from a virgin is not just "coincidence" either, it has a socio-biological explanation. Like any other mammal, human males have the urge to pass their own genes to the female and they see other males as rivals, so any patriarchal society will see virginity as something preferable, which will then evolve into a social construct of considering it valuable, sacred, virtuous, holy etc. A myth with a holy (royal) hero's or prophet's bloodline also being holy (royal) is something very probable to narrate with such a mind set. So, you can have isolated stories about sacred virgins and their special sons in isolated parts of the world. Again, there had been many floods, volcano eruptions or similar disasters all over the world and it's again very natural people at the time interpreted them as the anger or punishment of gods without the knowledge of other similar explanations, continents away.
However, when we singularly look at the Middle-Eastern hub and compare its religions, we are not talking about such general concepts and a collective tendency to interpret them similarly but rather a set of very specified stories identical in detail (such as 12 companions), so it's quite inevitable to conclude there was influential transaction of those stories among cultures. Even if you stretch out logic and claim the myths in the OT came from a single source which was intended to be a single monotheistic lore in the beginning (which would be a chronological problem because they predate monotheism), according to Christian doctrine, the birth time of Jesus is pretty well-known and when you have other myths that predates the stories in the NT by thousands of years, you have a problem.
It is not a process of replicating like you say but transforming and modifying according to local culture and social change, of course. That's also how the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church or Protestantism reshaped Christianity just as well. And that's also why early stages of capitalism from Italy transformed into something else, something much more revolutionary in Western Europe later, things change when you're not under the nose of Vatican and its authority all the time.
And lastly, putting all the details aside, you can not imagine how pagan "to be the son of a God" itself sounds when you are not raised in a Christian culture.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted December 17, 2015 10:39 AM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
Everybody who needs/uses internet for claiming some personal specificity or ideas tends to be a snow, because this is how you act when you have an agenda to fill. it goes same for religion, politics, sexual orientations, racial argues and so on.
My grand mother used to be very religious, she used to pray every morning and evening. I was a moron and was daily mocking on her faith, then she only had a quiet and peaceful smile and never answered back. But I know that every time I mocked, she added something to her prayers, about God forgiving me, as I was young and fool.
Best post in this thread, and possibly whole forum. Yes, people on the internet tend to be like that. And yes, people that are truly religious are much like that good woman that was your Grandmother.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
