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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 14, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
It's about time we did some worship around here... 
Psalm 6 NIV
Thank you! Psalms is one of my favorite books in bible Relationship whit God from a man, who was not perfect but loved God and clearly respected fellow men. There are so many great Psalms, they have found their way to my heart multiple times
Many thinks that christians don't read OT but that's not true at all. I like the saying: In NT all are open, in OT many greatness is hidden, you need to dig deeper. (bad english translation of the idea but basically there are so much symbolism and stuff you really need good knowlage of whole bible before you can grasp more than the surface)
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 14, 2015 07:48 PM |
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OT and NT are both very important and they have so much great wisdom in them... Fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge (OT); Perfect love casts out all fear (NT)
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
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Serafim
Hired Hero
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posted December 14, 2015 10:09 PM |
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Edited by Serafim at 22:13, 14 Dec 2015.
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So much religious proselytizing.
Its like being in a mental hospital trying to comprehend the guys who have imaginary friends with names uch as 4, 3, blue or Toby.
The mind is a product of the brain, it can be broken, changed with various means. Brain damage changes a person. Deprogramming changes a person and so can psychoactive drugs or sedatives.
I shudder to think what a religious person would do if somehow they became convinced their god does not exist. Go on a killing rampage? Rape, murder?
Afterall, they say over and over again their holy book is their moral center.
One day I woke up to realize that I live in a world full of mental patients.
edit:
Deprogramming:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-deprogram.html
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 14, 2015 10:12 PM |
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If God does not exist, then I would live with it.
Debating with atheists has no productivity for me, because all you can do is provoke and say whatever bad things you want about us, and then call US bigots.
So don't bother replying to me, I won't bite the bait. 
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Serafim
Hired Hero
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posted December 14, 2015 10:37 PM |
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You should look into this:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#name_calling
I wonder if any christian: DD, you, Elodin or the others can debate without stepping on the mines of logical fallacy.
I advise anyone to read the link. It is enlightening.
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted December 14, 2015 10:45 PM |
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Quote:
I wonder if any christian: DD, you, Elodin or the others can debate without stepping on the mines of logical fallacy.
common known atheism is also logical fallacy because it takes humanism for religion...
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Serafim
Hired Hero
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posted December 14, 2015 10:58 PM |
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phe said:
Quote:
I wonder if any christian: DD, you, Elodin or the others can debate without stepping on the mines of logical fallacy.
common known atheism is also logical fallacy because it takes humanism for religion...
By as much of a difference is there between a philosophy or ideology and a religion? Special privileges?
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 01:42 AM |
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Serafim said:
Afterall, they say over and over again their holy book is their moral center.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-deprogram.html
I for one, don't have anything against religious discussing whit atheist but most of the times it's just bashing insults and quoting bible whit no knowlage of the contex what so ever. I check that link of yours Serafim but there are so much information, any particular thing you want to talk about?
I have not been christian whole my life, so I understand how it's like whitout bible. I never understood atheism tough, you are certain that there is no God even tough nothing can prove it, one way or other. So your mind is already set, there can be no other possibilities. How is that different from any religion?
Why I beliave bible? Personal experience. I have witnessed it's supernatural side when Jesus found me. What NT says has happened in my life and in millions of others. Philosophy side, I do like NT view. In my mind, I have all logical points beliaving God, Bible and Jesus are all truth. Now that does not say, I don't doubt or even question some things in bible, you would be suprised if I where to throw all my questions here (I don't) but that does not change the fact that God can really be found. Stupidest thing I ever heard was from atheist professor: "I can't logically understand how the first dna could come from a meteor but there can't be another explanation, because there is no god." Oh boy, that was funny.
Serafim if you have some good question/s i would be happy to answer but don't copy paste and be respectful
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted December 15, 2015 06:16 AM |
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Quote:
By as much of a difference is there between a philosophy or ideology and a religion? Special privileges?
Atheism pretended non-religious and based on logic/reality. It took humanism as religion giving humans special privileges just to get their support. Somehow these privileges have been exploited by bad people (socialists, communists and then rest of XX-century and nowadays politicians) who are taking advantage and are parasite on others. They are unpunishable because they are "people". Atheism turned out to be worse than religion. That why we have what we have now...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 15, 2015 07:27 AM |
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phe said:
common known atheism is also logical fallacy because it takes humanism for religion...
Bull****. Putting aside that this has nothing to do with logic, it's also an ignorant statement. Atheism does not acknowledge the existence of God or gods until proven otherwise, it has materialism and natural sciences are its foundations - both much older than "humanism". Religions not only state that God or gods exist but take that as something nonnegotiable and immune to counter-arguments. While both an atheist and a religious person can be quite thick-headed - which this thread proves - atheism may accept the existence of God/gods if it is proven beyond reasonable doubt using scientific and logical apparatus and most certainly after disposing of much of the mythological junk that plagues every religion but God-based religions will never accept the non-existence of God/gods because that will just destroy them as religions and transform them into "mere" humanitarian ethical systems.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 09:46 AM |
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I haven't heard any proper materialist claim that there aren't God or that bible is false. For material view we have hundreads of people who saw Jesus when He walked on the earth 2000 years ago. Rose from the dead and 500 disciples whitnessed when Jesus left the earth.
Nothing has been studied more than bible, can it be true, what really happened, all these questions have been asked millions of times by scholars and bible studiers. Still nothing proves that it would be fabricated, infact it has pretty solid ground. One interesting point is that it has parts like: womans visiting Jesus grave and they where the ones who told mens about this, now in that time nobody took womans words seriously, it was like children talking. Now that's a bit odd, if it would be fabricated story, no way anyone would write womans visited there, because there would be no point. There are other similar cases, where there would not be any point to write such stories unless it happened. Jesus in Getsemane for instance, why would the writer potray Jesus as this weak crying man? Same man who did miragles among the people, speak boldly agaist pharisees and was considered as a Son of God by it's followers. Now why potray him in such a way? When trying to figure authentication, fabrications often say just what we want to hear or the plain obvious choice. When there are elements whit no gain, rather the opposite, it speaks for it's authenticity.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 15, 2015 10:13 AM |
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You can bring 1000 "why" and "why nots" which sound plausible to you and could have nothing to do with the reality (or could be true), that's not the point. If you want evidence that sounds good to you, you will certainly find it. If you don't want evidence that speaks against your convictions, you will most likely ignore it. Cognitive dissonance is very strong in the religious interpretation of history. Again, that's not the point - what matter is that an atheist can accept the existence of God/gods if that is proven sufficiently but a religious person cannot accept the opposite without disposing of his religious mindset completely. This is usually the reason why even the best atheists vs. Christian/Muslims/etc. discussions inevitably come to a point where the former have to argue against dogmas or the latter just drop the rational arguments and shift to brain-bankrupt mysticism like "God's ways are inexplicable".
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 11:23 AM |
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Maybe that's true for both ends but fair enough
Zenofex how would you explain existence of life itself? What is the purpose of all this and our self's particularly? Just curious.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 15, 2015 11:26 AM |
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Homer171 said:
I haven't heard any proper materialist claim that there aren't God or that bible is false. For material view we have hundreads of people who saw Jesus when He walked on the earth 2000 years ago. Rose from the dead and 500 disciples whitnessed when Jesus left the earth.
Nothing has been studied more than bible, can it be true, what really happened, all these questions have been asked millions of times by scholars and bible studiers. Still nothing proves that it would be fabricated, infact it has pretty solid ground. One interesting point is that it has parts like: womans visiting Jesus grave and they where the ones who told mens about this, now in that time nobody took womans words seriously, it was like children talking. Now that's a bit odd, if it would be fabricated story, no way anyone would write womans visited there, because there would be no point. There are other similar cases, where there would not be any point to write such stories unless it happened. Jesus in Getsemane for instance, why would the writer potray Jesus as this weak crying man? Same man who did miragles among the people, speak boldly agaist pharisees and was considered as a Son of God by it's followers. Now why potray him in such a way? When trying to figure authentication, fabrications often say just what we want to hear or the plain obvious choice. When there are elements whit no gain, rather the opposite, it speaks for it's authenticity.
I really don't want to turn this into the "questions about religion" thread and leave you Christians chat about your theology among each other but for someone who is basing his faith on a subjective transcendental experience which you arbitrarily relate to the super-natural, you are being ignorantly bold. (Some people "feel" the same listening to Mozart but we know it wasn't God who composed those concertos.)
Have you ever met an actual peasant? Not a first-world country modern farmer but an actual peasant? They can take ANY legend seriously, believe it and spread it completely relying on simple hear-say. If you lose your wedding ring and somebody tells you, maybe a demon took it, you would just laugh, a medieval peasant from some forgotten village wouldn't. For a moment, just forget historically institutionalized myths and think of all the contemporary urban legends or conspiracy theories that are constantly in circulation even in today's world, now apply that to a world where 99 percent of the people are illiterate, where there are no elementary schools, where secular thinking or modern science do not exist yet and the early foundations of rational and empirical thought are excluded to a very tiny minority and even they have the tendency of explaining most things without questioning any traditional mystical lore. (A common example, astronomy and astrology weren't separated until as recent as the 17th century.)
Contrary to your claims, monotheistic religions are studied today with a very secular perspective by a variety of social sciences and the norm is not to explain them by some super-natural entity but anthropological research. Christianity or Abrahamic religions in general take most of their stories/myths from earlier pagan beliefs, these transactions have been documented by a vast variety of scholar work and the very concept of monotheism is mostly seen as a by-product of early empires. There are still many primitive societies today, living in isolated parts of the world such as deep jungle zones, high mountain steps, distant locations over deserts etc. They are also studied and none of those communities, who are in oblivion when it comes to the mainstream Euroasian empire experience and its monarchic hierarchy, are monotheistic. They can not relate to such an abstraction. They all have animistic/shamanistic beliefs quite similar in character, their version of faith is much more directly involved in worshiping natural forces themselves.
Lastly, an atheist would indeed change his mind about it if there were any serious evidence about some God but not only that there isn't any when it comes to natural sciences, there is also plenty of much better and convincing explanation about why there most probably isn't, when it comes to social sciences. And the idea is so weak, so anthropomorphic and culturally so local and temporary, such evidence would surprise me as much as Santa Claus turning out to be true. When you talk about God, never forget, if stripped out of its historicity and social tradition, you are actually talking about plain magic. And we have more than plenty of reason, not to believe in magic.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted December 15, 2015 04:49 PM |
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Edited by phe at 16:51, 15 Dec 2015.
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Zenofex said:
phe said:
common known atheism is also logical fallacy because it takes humanism for religion...
Bull****. Putting aside that this has nothing to do with logic, it's also an ignorant statement. Atheism does not acknowledge the existence of God or gods until proven otherwise, it has materialism and natural sciences are its foundations - both much older than "humanism". Religions not only state that God or gods exist but take that as something nonnegotiable and immune to counter-arguments. While both an atheist and a religious person can be quite thick-headed - which this thread proves - atheism may accept the existence of God/gods if it is proven beyond reasonable doubt using scientific and logical apparatus and most certainly after disposing of much of the mythological junk that plagues every religion but God-based religions will never accept the non-existence of God/gods because that will just destroy them as religions and transform them into "mere" humanitarian ethical systems.
Materialism and science but wrong clues concluded. Who is to be law subject...who is a man...is it adult and honest people, just adult people whatever good or bad, women, children born/unborn, animals? Who shoud rule? And who should be protected? Should one group take advantantage on others or not? If yes, why.
Atheist are usually bad people . They think that they can do harm to others if there is no punishment. They are moral relativists, so their lifes should have relative value either.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 04:53 PM |
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artu said:
For a moment, just forget historically institutionalized myths and think of all the contemporary urban legends or conspiracy theories that are constantly in circulation even in today's world, now apply that to a world where 99 percent of the people are illiterate, where there are no elementary schools, where secular thinking or modern science do not exist yet and the early foundations of rational and empirical thought are excluded to a very tiny minority and even they have the tendency of explaining most things without questioning any traditional mystical lore. (A common example, astronomy and astrology weren't separated until as recent as the 17th century.)
Contrary to your claims, monotheistic religions are studied today with a very secular perspective by a variety of social sciences and the norm is not to explain them by some super-natural entity but anthropological research. Christianity or Abrahamic religions in general take most of their stories/myths from earlier pagan beliefs, these transactions have been documented by a vast variety of scholar work and the very concept of monotheism is mostly seen as a by-product of early empires. There are still many primitive societies today, living in isolated parts of the world such as deep jungle zones, high mountain steps, distant locations over deserts etc. They are also studied and none of those communities, who are in oblivion when it comes to the mainstream Euroasian empire experience and its monarchic hierarchy, are monotheistic. They can not relate to such an abstraction. They all have animistic/shamanistic beliefs quite similar in character, their version of faith is much more directly involved in worshiping natural forces themselves.
Lastly, an atheist would indeed change his mind about it if there were any serious evidence about some God but not only that there isn't any when it comes to natural sciences, there is also plenty of much better and convincing explanation about why there most probably isn't, when it comes to social sciences. And the idea is so weak, so anthropomorphic and culturally so local and temporary, such evidence would surprise me as much as Santa Claus turning out to be true. When you talk about God, never forget, if stripped out of its historicity and social tradition, you are actually talking about plain magic. And we have more than plenty of reason, not to believe in magic.
this is one of the best arguments i've seen against religion. no hostility or bias; just simple facts.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 05:01 PM |
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Yeah, atheists are usually bad people, that's why all the terrorists are atheists, sure. Moral relativism? God knows a lot about that one, actually.
And just for the record - isn't that a pretty offensive statement in the first place? It's like I would say, oh, hey, theists are usually dumb people, because their morale absolutism is based on a creature that would sit in jail for mass murder, if sentencing was possible.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 05:09 PM |
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phe said:
Atheist are usually bad people . They think that they can do harm to others if there is no punishment. They are moral relativists, so their lifes should have relative value either.
lol. 
what about those religious mommies(and sometimes daddies) who lose their minds, and drown their children because "god told them to"?
i think, in order to understand what you're talking about, you have to understand people in general. there are bad apples(and nutcases) in every race, creed, religion, etc. bad apples aren't exclusive to a particular TYPE, so you delude yourself when you state that "atheists are usually bad people". don't let your anger at people become focused onto one type, you would be making a mistake. besides, christians are supposed to turn the other cheek anyway, right?
only they can't, always. and why? because they're HUMAN, the same as everyone else(even ATHEISTS! *gasp!*). 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 15, 2015 05:40 PM |
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Friends, this thread has gradually veered away from its intended purpose of discussing Christianity into a more typical religion-vs-atheism argument. We do have some threads existing already where you can bang your heads against that wall as much as you want. I would encourage you to please try to leave this thread to talking about Christianity-related topics.
Also, let's please leave the "people who believe in god are mental patients" talk out of it, OK?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 07:08 PM |
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you have a point, cor(i had forgotten myself). but how can people talk about christianity without bringing up/questioning faith?
is this thread only for christians to talk about the new testament and their beliefs/interpretations on it? just curious, i'm not trying to continue the off-topic(?).
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This thread is pages long: 
