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Serafim
Hired Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 10:25 PM |
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@Anyone that is religious here except elodin.
How about this
A; God works in mysterious ways.
B: God has a "divine" plan.
C: Humans have free will.
Also:
A: God is good.
B: For finite crimes and time on earth, god sends you to hell, permanently.
C: God seems to have Gays, Atheists, Women and even "flooded" the world to destroy everything.
D: God created the devil and hell.
F: God forces free will and sends you to hell, to burn forever.
I wont debate religion anymore.
If anything, it provides solace to the gullible to think they will go to a special "private" party where the "rich" and "evil" wont be there.
Honestly, it sounds like a story from a high school loser trying to cope with reality and why people mock him/her.
But then again, is a medieval story. A product of its time and with it the people who believe in that. Honestly, religion is more suited to the times the "prophets" existed.
Afterall, we know today that incest is bad, but the people of the past seem to have loved it. I "wonder" why none of these "holy" books wrote against that.
I want to read some extraneous mental gymnastics and some one try to explain the points I brought up with religion. If you are are not religious, try to play God's Advocate.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 10:31 PM |
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Thanks for your imput Somi 
Neraus said:
Anyway, we know actually very little about the heavenly realms and how and who enters, the only things we know are these: ...if we knew exactly what to do to enter...
Was that a joke? Bible tells very clearly who enters and who does not.
I hate to spoil your fun guys, but there is no poker in Hell. My work buddy said to me once: "I rather go to hell and rule and party for all eternity whit the Devil, rather than being a slave of God." First, there is no fun in hell. Devil does not enjoy it either. Second, I'm not a slave and I will rule whit my Father on the throne. That's where the parties are, you have mistaken, my friend 
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 10:38 PM |
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Neraus said:
Are you sure you aren't eligible for purgatory instead?
meh, purgatory sounds boring. sounds like that place in "the adventures of baron munchausen(sp?)", where everyone had forgotten who they were( and were playing cards with ol' grim reaper, if i remember right).
no, hell sounds like more of a party zone for me. i'm sure to meet people there that i'd get to play with. that, or there'd be so many fine chicks as to not bother caring about vendetta's. i wonder if there are std's in hell? can souls have std's? 
on a more serious note: i seem to remember that someone figured out the temperatures of heaven and hell by using bible passages and comparing the lingo to current standards of measurement, and heaven turned out to actually be hotter than hell. i'll have to do some browsing. i'm sure i saved that somewhere.
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Serafim
Hired Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 10:41 PM |
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Homer171 said:
Thanks for your imput Somi
Neraus said:
Anyway, we know actually very little about the heavenly realms and how and who enters, the only things we know are these: ...if we knew exactly what to do to enter...
Was that a joke? Bible tells very clearly who enters and who does not.
I hate to spoil your fun guys, but there is no poker in Hell. My work buddy said to me once: "I rather go to hell and rule and party for all eternity whit the Devil, rather than being a slave of God." First, there is no fun in hell. Devil does not enjoy it either. Second, I'm not a slave and I will rule whit my Father on the throne. That's where the parties are, you have mistaken, my friend
Do think for a minute of your belief in god is not the right one, and Islam is the right religion.
You really have a slim chance of going to "heaven" even if "god" exists.
. I know that deep down guys like you feel joy that "I go to heaven, these go to hell".
As moody as the god of the bible is, I am pretty sure he will be like "ha, fooled you! YOU WILL ALL BURN IN HELL!"
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 10:41 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 22:55, 02 Dec 2015.
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Homer171 said:
I hate to spoil your fun guys, but there is no poker in Hell. My work buddy said to me once: "I rather go to hell and rule and party for all eternity whit the Devil, rather than being a slave of God." First, there is no fun in hell. Devil does not enjoy it either. Second, I'm not a slave and I will rule whit my Father on the throne. That's where the parties are, you have mistaken, my friend
lol, you fail to see your ego, when you speak of sharing ANY throne in heaven.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 02, 2015 10:55 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 22:57, 02 Dec 2015.
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@homer
I was playing along with fred, just because he isn't of my idea doesn't mean I can't have some fun with him. In no way I'd choose hell myself.
But anyway what if I told that to enter Heaven you have to be fully purified?
There is an element of unknown still, because there is no clear cut way to enter heaven, unless you adhere to the currents of: Sola Fide; Sola Gratia or Sola Scriptura then it's easy to say who's saved and who's not.
But as we say, never say whether somebody is in hell or not, you don't know their life and you don't know if God graced them with the possibility of penance before your death.
There is also the problem of many that may be convinced that they have done everything right to go to heaven, and yet they end up in purgatory.
That is the point of what I said, to really be certain to go to heaven you should just sit down and pray like mad, then go to mass depending on what devotions you're following 9 times the first Friday of the month, while still going every Sunday, and then you may be certain to go to Heaven, since at that point God will grace you in a unimaginable way.
And, the other part is pretty much true, can you describe to me hell heaven and purgatory? We know little about what they are exactly, and I'll freely admit that.
Revelations have told us of the millions of souls condemned in hell, in an enormous lake of fire, and it's no secret how to enter there, but then, where do demons dwell? How is the torture enacted exactly? Only through immersion? Such are worthless and unimportant questions that we shouldn't ask ourselves, but they show how little do we know of what lies beyond.
Purgatory is even more difficult to understand, and don't get me started on Heaven.
But this is the problem, claiming to know what these realms are made of is impossible as of yet, unless a soul returns from one of these or a saint gives us a revelation (which as I understand it you don't recognize saints anyway).
God told us what to do in general lines, we know that we need to heed the words of Christ to enter, and such a thing is undeniable, but there are also other things that are required.
And the point is simple, if it were so simple to enter Heaven people would do the necessary things at the end of their lives so that they may be saved anyway.
And that isn't talking about what some people call the possibility of non-Christians to be saved due to their ignorance of the truth.
@fred
That's what I'm talking about, people who claim that they can measure the temperature of Heaven and Hell, preposterous...
And I'd like to be a choir boy at that point, I'm not that comfortable with masses of people anyway... 
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 11:06 PM |
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Neraus said:
That's what I'm talking about, people who claim that they can measure the temperature of Heaven and Hell, preposterous...
i'll see if i can find it, then find the bible passages and see how the person came to that conclusion.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 11:08 PM |
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Serafim said:
Afterall, we know today that incest is bad, but the people of the past seem to have loved it. I "wonder" why none of these "holy" books wrote against that.
If Adam and Eve where only humans then their boys married their sisters 
Bible is against incest. Humans dna structure is demenshing little by little. Therefore the similarites of the dna, brother and sister can have bad effects on the child. This was not the case whit Adam and Eve and their childs as their dna was so 'pure' more numbers if you like. This was different in Judaism, when it could lead in unwanted results. Hence no incest, besides it's gross 
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 11:20 PM |
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Homer171 said:
This was not the case whit Adam and Eve and their childs as their dna was so 'pure' more numbers if you like. This was different in Judaism, when it could lead in unwanted results. Hence no incest, besides it's gross
uh huh, and how would you know that? they didn't even discover dna until relatively recently. the way i look at it, if adam and eve were the first humans, and all human life came from them, then that means we should all be so far beyond retarded due to inbreeding as to have never invented anything besides the wheel, if even that. and yet, civilization has progressed, technologically. in the new testament, jesus was around during the time of the romans, who invented many great things. explain that, compadre.
or are you really telling me that god was in control of dna, but only until a point?
*grabs popcorn*
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 11:25 PM |
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Serafim said:
Do think for a minute of your belief in god is not the right one, and Islam is the right religion.
You really have a slim chance of going to "heaven" even if "god" exists.
I know that deep down guys like you feel joy that "I go to heaven, these go to hell".
I have and before i encoutered God, I tough any religion could be the right one. Now that I know God, there is no question about it.
No, I don't have slim choice as He has already bought the ticket Himself and gave it to me. Why should I not trust Him and take His word on this?
If you see car accident, do you feel joy? No. I wish nobody would end up in hell but that's no reality. I don't have anything against muslims, gays or prostitutes, rather I feel miserable that people are lost. God loves them too.
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 11:32 PM |
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Homer171 said:
I have and before i encoutered God, I tough any religion could be the right one. Now that I know God, there is no question about it.
so thinks every other religious person from every other religion. the question is, who's right? ALL of them can't be correct. and who's to say which one is? nobody knows. that's why it's called faith. because it's a belief, and not a fact.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 03, 2015 12:18 AM |
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fred79 said:
uh huh, and how would you know that?... explain that, compadre.
In it's original state the dna has it full potential. If Adam and Eve where grandparents of us all they had to carry all the potential. If parents dna is somewhat similiar there is greater risk child is sick, obviously. The more 'numbers' you have, less the changes. Now in brazil people have this 'numbers' quite high, thanks to multicultural enviroment. Here in Finland the number is quite low when nothing increases it, same blue eyes, white skin, not much of variety. The number is diminishing.
Adam and Eve did not have that many childrens imo. Girls aren't listed aim afraid. It did not take long for younger generations to take on. This is just a quess but perhaps people lived longer because they had full dna potential. Drastic environment changes could do some, but they lived hundreds of years! Bible just says God shortened humans lifespans. Did I forget something... hmm
*Eats some of freds popcorns*
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 03, 2015 12:26 AM |
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@Neraus
I have no problem reading long posts but it seems what I said completely flew through you. I am not talking about "forbidden thoughts." Nothing is forbidden, just look at my explanation again and keep in mind that your hypothetical designer is omnipotent.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2015 12:33 AM |
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Homer171 said:
*Eats some of freds popcorns*
lol, win. 
so, you think that people back then were purer in dna, and lived hundreds of years because of this? do you have anything scientific to back that up with, or is that just faith as well?
your pov on this is interesting to me. i've never heard it before. but then, i've never chatted any believers up on dna vs adam & eve.
i seem to remember some preachers calling us all brothers and sisters due to adam and eve, though...
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 03, 2015 02:06 AM |
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fred79 said:
do you have anything scientific to back that up with, or is that just faith as well?
You mean you have not heard about that lab-report? Man, are you behind the time...it was widely distributed between the ages of "Wheel" & "Fire"
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2015 02:21 AM |
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damnit, i was hoping there was some form of break-thru in dna understanding. i still can't get these fire-breathing velociraptors right...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2015 10:49 AM |
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Not only @ Neraus
I don't see what's so difficult to understand. God made "us" in his image. Why? I mean, he didn't leave things up to us, but instead made laws for us to follow. Again, WHY? He wants us to be this way and not that, do this and not that ... WHY? Still the same point - if he gave us free will, why is he telling us what to do?
Doesn't make a lot of sense, actually.
Then there is this: "A stern father can still be a loving father." However, there is also: "A disobeying child can still be a loving child."
Love, however, has nothing to do with it. It's about obedience or punishment.
Then there is "sin" and "repenting". You know, with human laws, there are exceptions for everything. What you do may be against the law - but still "justified". Which means, you may not like it, but you'd do it again. How can you repent something you'd do again?
Let's have a look at the adulteress - a crime worthy of stoning, after the law God laid down, a sin certainly, Jesus telling them, he who's without sin should go on throwing the first stone.
However, I'd still expect the necessity for the adulteress to REPENT her sin - honestly - in order to have her soul saved. But what if she simply DOESN'T? What if she was treated badly by her husband - what if she was married off and couldn't stand it?
There are a million reasons why she may stand to her adultery, making a case for why it was the RIGHT thing to do for her, although a transgression against God's command AND against the necessary honest repenting of this.
Free will means essentially that humans have the capability to OVERRIDE all laid down laws, and if someone does it, it depends on whether there was good reason for it AND whether the gamble was worth it in terms of transgression versus possible "gain" ("gain" being something that needs serious definition, of course) - and the thing is you can safely say that this is true for God's laws and "sinning" as well.
Honest repenting needs the realization that you DID screw up, because only then you will be repentant.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 03, 2015 11:12 AM |
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I do not disagree JJ, repentance must be sincere, you must not commit the same sin on purpose again and refrain, that is right, and what is wrong: to give in and sin again and then just hope to be forgiven again.
God is not the genie of the lamp or the get out of jail card.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2015 12:01 PM |
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What I want to say is, depending on the situation, you may "sin", knowing it's sin (or not knowing and later learn it, doesn't matter) - and don't see any reason at all to repent, because it did feel right and you'd do it again given the same situation.
THAT is what free will is all about - but that is also what would be described as EVIL.
Ok, different example: Abraham & Isaac. Abraham did "right" in simply obeying God - that's what the story is supposed to show.
Now, Abraham saying, no, I can't do that would be "sin", disobeying a direct order of God. You could argue, Abraham should have trusted his God NOT to let him commit such an abysmal deed - but then, why would the all-knowing God need to test Abraham at all? And, in that case, it would still be a test failed, because IN TRUTH, Abraham might say in this case, I will go ahead with the sacrifice, but only because I trust I won't have to go through with it.
The test is, whether Abraham will obey BLINDLY, because a God can ask blind obedience.
Now, what this amounts to is a mindset that SACRIFICES free will to the first law that you have to trust in whatever God wants you to do or not do is RIGHT and best - do not use free will when God is involved, except for deciding to obey.
Or, in other words, Abraham would never WILLINGLY sacrifice his own son, so what Abraham says is, God, I would never decide to sacrifice my own son, but I did decide to obey your command, so be it.
Which means, God gave his, err, subjects free will only, in order to revel in their total unquestioned submission (or punish their "pride", not doing that). He tests Abraham, because he CAN.
With Jesus - I mean, it's still the same feeling. With Jesus, Abraham might have said, no, I can't do that, try as I might, I just cannot sacrifice my son, not even for you, not just for the heck of it - and not being insta-killed, but instead he'd have a lifetime to repent disobeying god - but not knowing what would have happened, how is poor Abraham ever going to convince himself that it was the wrong thing to do, because it would have been right to just close his eyes, obey his God and just hope everything would be fine, if he did?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2015 12:14 PM |
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@ jj: that's another inconsistency in the bible; the event between god, abraham, and his son. i had forgotten all about it. essentially, god wanted abraham to break one of his own commandments, simply "just because".
i liken that event to pitting two insects together against one another, in a jar. not the kind of god you want running things, surely. it speaks volumes for the mentality of such a being. "you can break my rule, but only if i say so." no wonder people have killed each other for centuries over religion. "god told me it was ok."
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This thread is pages long: 
