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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 02, 2015 02:26 PM |
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I don't know which edition did you read artu, but I don't remember any of what you said in the book. 
And in Christianity, it is not God vs Satan about who wins the most humans or something like that, satan means adversary, and he is to be conquered.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 02, 2015 02:46 PM |
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fred79 said:
markkur said:
Btw, Separation from God is usually a decision. I would not for a second think the Lord would fry the mentally incapable either. That's not a ruthlessness that can be identified in Christ.
what if you like the ideas jesus spouted, and like the guy himself(as a man, not as a prophet), but cannot see yourself bending over backward for a vengeful and irrational god(if it exists, which i don't believe it does)? would you say that person would go to hell(lol, hint: that person is me )?
I keep my Faith very simple. Don't get me wrong I had to grow-up to get here...it is a spiritual journey that requires sincere time. But the more I plowed in, the more I began to realize it is Satan, the Dark Force, the enemy of the good in you, whatever floats your boat. This junk is called Satan and that's good enough for me.
Anyway, I see the O.T. as a barbaric testament in places and quite beautiful in others. Where "a glimpse of God" (if and whatever God is) is in the text...he knows and understands for most of human history, man wrote Myth to explain the deeper side of life. Myth has elements of Truth but it is not always the whole Truth...thus Christ. We all have God's spark within us.
Obviously you know what you do not like about the O.T. bear-down on Christ and I bet you see him differently. Don't anyone misunderstand me, there is great worth in the O.T. It is a long historical snapshot of the birth of Faith. Ie., at first, I could not stand to look in that book and read the Psalms. Why? Because David seemed a terrible example to me to be offering any inspiration. But years, later I began to see he was simply a lost soul like I was and I didn't have any right to judge the guy from some self-righteous throne. What I value now is, that he was honest in what he penned and that what anyone may have penned about him was also the real deal. All the ugly and all the sweet; in short a short-story of a soul grasping and grasping with something powerful that is not easily attained. Now that was a story I could understand...and btw Paul in the N.T. describes me in many ways. Not the Religious background but the absolute about-face.
<imo> like everything else about man, Faith has grown-up and mentally evolved. I believe we would have been a lot farther along if the Word had not be kept from most of the people for many centuries. Look what happened when it came into their own hands in the 1500s. Not that all of that is a beautiful story (some nasty pangs there) but at least I can have a solid working Faith now where I was not cowed into submission in fear or brutality. In spite of that poor record, look at the causes of the killing of millions in the 20th century and identify those causes and you will se mankind has grabbed different tools for his ends.
Self-imposed word-count reached.<L> I do wish my days were different but have accepted they are not.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 02:47 PM |
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Since we are at it - and having mentioned PR -
Lucifer
ironically enough a FOX show, will probably be quite entertaining and gain Satan a couple of new fans.
Might be a good idea to make a show out of The Infinite Man to counter that. 
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 02:52 PM |
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Thank you brothers from you words. 
@artu That was kinda funny. It's good to have some sarcasm in life. Devil is sentenced to death already just waiting the execution. Hell is no place for a man, all that follows him will face same consequence because payment/judge for sin is death.
God does not enjoy torturing people. How much He has suffered seeing our pain? We are His childrens for crying out loud. How can He give Jesus to crusifixion? It was the only time God could not watch, pain was too much. There is no greater love than giving your life behalf all others. God did just that, He felt the pain. What does love look like? I rather die, so you don't need to. Our life problems are insignificant combared to eternity we have whit our beloved Father in heaven.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 02, 2015 02:58 PM |
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@ Artu and JJ
You guys like to reason etc. You "may" enjoy the following;
My Religion by graf Leo Tolstoy
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43794
click "Other files" for the D/L format. I recommend the "H" for html; the others are a mess.
I have briefly mentioned before that I believe Christ is and has been ignored by those who say they follow him. I came across Tolstoy's belief quite by accident and was surprised someone else has seen what I have. (not sure why really) Fyi, I read most but not all...I just cannot go-deep anymore and hang out for long, unless it really is needed. I am at the end of my race and about as good as I'm going to get.<VBG>
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 03:12 PM |
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I suggest we change the subject from devil to God/Religion
Because the two arent really combaring in the same league. One fallen angel is no rival of God.
How big God really is? Bible says God measured everything or universe whit His span. [A span is the length from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger when the hand is stretched out] Then again God can live in your hearh tough Holy Spirit. God is not forced in one place how we think of objects or persons.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 02, 2015 03:23 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:33, 02 Dec 2015.
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Drakon-Deus said:
I don't know which edition did you read artu, but I don't remember any of what you said in the book.
The full edition which includes the second book, it's the part very near the end which goes:
We came to the place about eleven o'clock at night, and found that the people had not the least suspicion of danger attending their idol. The night was cloudy: yet the moon gave us light enough to see that the idol stood just in the same posture and place that it did before. The people seemed to be all at their rest; only that in the great hut, where we saw the three priests, we saw a light, and going up close to the door, we heard people talking as if there were five or six of them; we concluded,therefore, that if we set wildfire to the idol, those men would come out immediately, and run up to the place to rescue it from destruction; and what to do with them we knew not. Once we thought of carrying it away, and setting fire to it at a distance; but when we came to handle it, we found it too bulky for our carriage, so we were at a loss again. The second Scotsman was for setting fire to the hut, and knocking the creatures that were there on the head when they came out; but I could not join with that; I was against killing them, if it were possible to avoid it. "Well, then," said the Scots merchant, "I will tell you what we will do: we will try to make them prisoners, tie their hands, and make them stand and see their idol destroyed."
As it happened, we had twine or packthread enough about us, which we used to tie our firelocks together with; so we resolved to attack these people first, and with as little noise as we could. The first thing we did, we knocked at the door, when one of the priests coming to it, we immediately seized upon him, stopped his mouth, and tied his hands behind him, and led him to the idol, where we gagged him that he might not make a noise, tied his feet also together, and left him on the ground.
Two of us then waited at the door, expecting that another would come out to see what the matter was; but we waited so long till the third man came back to us; and then nobody coming out, we knocked again gently, and immediately out came two more, and we served them just in the same manner, but were obliged to go all with them, and lay them down by the idol some distance from one another; when, going back, we found two more were come out of the door, and a third stood behind them within the door. We seized the two, and immediately tied them, when the third, stepping back and crying out, my Scots merchant went in after them, and taking out a composition we had made that would only smoke and stink, he set fire to it, and threw it in among them. By that time the other Scotsman and my man, taking charge of the two men already bound, and tied together also by the arm, led them away to the idol, and left them there, to see if their idol would relieve them, making haste back to us.
When the fuze we had thrown in had filled the hut with so much smoke that they were almost suffocated, we threw in a small leather bag of another kind, which flamed like a candle, and, following it in, we found there were but four people, who, as we supposed, had been about some of their diabolical sacrifices. They appeared, in short, frightened to death, at least so as to sit trembling and stupid, and not able to speak either,
for the smoke.
I guess, free will or freedom of religion wasn't such a favorable idea among Christians back in the early 1700's, after all.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 02, 2015 03:26 PM |
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I never said it was popular, everyone knows it wasn't.
And it seems the Robinson Crusoe I read was incomplete.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 02, 2015 04:50 PM |
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I hate checking my posts, they tend to make me lose time and give me more things to state...
But anyway, I'm late to the party...
@artu
Saying evil exists because of free will doesn't mean that free will can only lead to evil, and with this we agree, and I don't see where you would get that idea from me.
The problem in your example is this, all the basic urges of man aren't evil by nature, man wasn't created with an urge to do evil, but in your example you're positing the idea that God would place something He's against in man so that man in his freedom would choose to go against such urge. But, you didn't talk about how sin is also the perversion of the basic human needs, for example gluttony is the exaggeration in eating, at the point of stealing the food of your fellow humans, but this doesn't mean that eating is evil now, as eating is necessary for men to survive, and, we Catholics eat the body of our God, but such a thing would be abominable if the act of eating was intrinsically evil.
The act of pedophilia, the subject of your example, is a perversion of the act of procreation, so that means that man was created with an urge that was already perverted.
But at this point lies the problem you said, but only in such a case in which the urge is intrinsically evil and unnecessary for life.
You can't compare the sexual urge per-se with pedophilia, one is required to generate offspring the other is abusing of a pure and innocent being.
You're shifting the focus now though, the previous discussion was regarding the origin of evil and sin, now you're talking about the bigger picture.
I cited pride only because it was pertinent to the story of the forbidden fruit, and as you said, even there you can find the element of temptation, but the scope of my post was responding to this question: "Why didn't God warn man to beware of the serpent?", not rather talking about sin in general.
As I said earlier sins are also perversions of the basic urges of man, and, the element of temptation is something of the sort of the soothing reassurance that there is nothing wrong with what you're doing, something like justificating a sin, which I'll digress by saying that justify in latin is Iustificare, from Iustus: Just, and Facere, written as Ficare: Do, and basically can mean "declare just" to help me in this explanation, as such the justification of a sin is equal to saying, what I'm doing is right for this reason.
I don't get why blind obedience is bad intrinsically though, but anyway, the point of curiosity almost goes moot once you understand that "that knowledge will make you like God", but anyway, if you say that's curiosity then it is the proverbial hand in the oven.
Curiosity isn't always a force of good, ever had the curiosity to put your hand in an electrically charged object? It's innocent to wonder what could happen, but you restrain yourself because you know it's dangerous, since you've been told so, you're practising blind obedience in that case too though, did you have the experience of the electric shock to decide for yourself if it's dangerous or not? Blind obedience to save your life is helpful.
If Adam simply wondered about the fruit there would be no sin, God didn't prohibit Adam from thinking about or wondering about the fruit, because at that point it's still innocent pondering, and we don't know if Adam asked God what the fruit did and why was it prohibited from him.
Regarding the souls of those who couldn't believe, you say we use this phrase a lot: "we'll never know" and you reprimand me for that, but some questions can't be answered in a certain way if we didn't receive even a slight hint, or better yet, when talking about the trascendent, the distant past and distant future, at least I try to explain to you the possibilities of various cases, something that as I understand doesn't usually happen to you and it bothers you from usual theists that won't even try to answer these things, there are limits to our knowledge, unlike what some others might say.
But alas, there are some who theorized that since all mankind will be resurrected at the end times there is the possibility for those who couldn't meet Christ to have a chance to see if they want to side either with Him or against Him, there is also the idea of a Limbo, where all souls that were virtuous will go if they couldn't know Christianity.
So at that point it depends on the behaviour of that person, since ignorance of the law isn't a valid defence in human tribunals, and the law, whether you believe in God or not has been made by Him and He put that law unto men at their birth.
That is also the reason as St.Augustine of Hippo put it, that pagans had shared values with Christians, since the Divine Law is inside everyone, that is also the reason I don't agree with the phrase: "Atheists are immoral", even in rejection the Divine Law is present inside of them, and as such they can act morally anyway.
There is a possibility of the reduction of the gravity of a sin if there was sincere ignorance of it, but the sin remains, and it needs to be purified.
But these are just speculations.
@JJ
The OT is usually ignored by lukewarm Christians, and in no way I suggested that it should be ignored, if anything I reported what others said to dismiss the problem.
That is the whole problem, instead of having a discussion people avoid that part of the Bible, as if that isn't still the word of God, we can talk if there were modifications done by either Hebrews or Pharisees, but it is valid nonetheless, after all Christ was a Jew, and as He said, He didn't come to erase the law but rather to bring its conclusion.
There are articles that have been considered to be possible to abrogate, due to the NT surpassing the OT, and is explained through the possibility of a fallible understanding of those who wrote the Bible, even if through Divine Revelation man cannot fully comprehend the language of God.
But usually such articles are regarding some Jewish traditions, such as prohibited foods and the requirement of circumcision.
Now for the rest of your post:
At this point I don't think I'm understanding you, if what I managed to get is this.
People choose to believe because of the place they'll be in the afterlife, and they don't choose God but rather Heaven, since they don't want Hell. And they choose this not by love but by fear of retribution.
Tell me if I understood you correctly.
Christ has said that whoever believed in Him wouldn't die, and would be granted eternal life. So there is an incentive in choosing His side, but at this point you're presuming the reason why somebody would choose a side.
And by the way, faith only doesn't bring salvation, but full adherence, such a thing is required to give punishment to those who in their life were unrepentant sinners, which, by the way, is another way to reject God.
Fear of God is a thing, and is still a requirement, but see it as a father, if you were raised by a stern but loving father you'd fear his reaction to your misdeeds, and yet (I suppose) you'd love your father, fear doesn't necessarily exclude love.
And yet there are many Christians that renounced their faith, did they fear God when they made such a choice? Didn't they find a reason why for them God either isn't on their side, or even exist? At this point you see that you can make your choice anyway, after all when God asks you if you are with Him or not that's what happens, if you're with Him you will fear and love Him and strive to accomplish His ideals, but if you say no you already show that you don't fear him, the choice is made.
All in all though, that is presuming the motivations of people though, it's like me saying that somebody is a Neo-Pagan because he doesn't like Christianity and wants to be more manly since he's not man enough to be and Atheist.
That or I'm not understanding you again, which is hilarious considering you capitalized the keywords for me.
Oh and by the way, can't wait to see that show, smells like heresy but it seems fun nonetheless...
Mostly because it shows that effectively the devil isn't a scary monster, it will appear in front of you as a polite and stylish gentleman, you won't know you're being led astray, so good job on that producers, now we'll see how well does it fare regarding to doctrine...
And dammit artu stop posting late into my timezone, you make me respond so late it's embarassing!
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 05:37 PM |
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@ markkur: i know that human beings don't need a religion to kill anyone or anything. it's just another excuse, among many. but i'm someone who believes death is necessary, so it's not like i really have a problem with it, myself; only in certain circumstances.
@ neraus: that's one thing i never understood about religious rites(i had to do the same thing when i used to go to church as a child, and sporadically with my more religious family members later on): eating "the body of christ"(wafers), and drinking "the blood of christ", or "blood of the lamb"(wine, or grape juice).
you do know that both those rituals are pagan in nature, right? why would there be paganism in the bibles, if paganism was considered evil, or less-than-holy? that's just one of many inconsistencies that led me to believe that the religions themselves pick whatever they want to use, and not just the faithful followers of those religions.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 02, 2015 06:12 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 18:18, 02 Dec 2015.
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The similarities with pagan rituals don't discount a ritual.
In a way we still do sacrifices, but instead of sacrificing an animal or somebody, we remember the greatest sacrifice, the one made by our God on the cross.
And God commanded us to do this, to eat and drink of His sacred body and blood, if it's written on the Bible it's not blasphemous.
I don't get the objection of a pagan "origin", a rite is established for its symbolism, if it coincides it's not directly an influence necessarily.
And you're talking like the Gospel wasn't written reporting the life of Christ, the incongruence comes if you are external from the faith and suppose an arbitrary origin for a rite, and from that you may say that it was a deliberate inclusion of a pagan rite.
But, if you're one of us, you'd say that all that is contained in the Gospel is true, then it wasn't including a pagan rite, instead it becomes the following of the original command spoke in the Last Meal.
And by the way, paganism is a broad term to encompass various religions that don't follow the word of Christ, and is usually used to call those religions without a name.
Now, pagan rites or doctrines are all distant from God, such is the reason they are unholy. Rites exclusive to Pagans, like worshipping idols, giving offerings to trees or belief in magic, are all considered to be avoided and are prohibited. While if there are coincidences you can't avoid to do something just because the pagans do it too, case in point of your objection the Eucharist, which is probably one of the strongest rituals instituted by Christ, if His command was to replicate His gesture we can't disobey since the pagans do some kind of a similar rite.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 02, 2015 06:37 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:40, 02 Dec 2015.
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Sorry dude, I'm a nocturnal person, we actually have only an hour between our time zones, so, live with it. Don't worry, I'm not under the impression that it takes all day for you to come up with an answer.
Neraus said:
Saying evil exists because of free will doesn't mean that free will can only lead to evil, and with this we agree, and I don't see where you would get that idea from me.
Well, since this is NOT what I got from you and the rest goes according to that misunderstanding, let me rephrase myself. It does not matter if a sin is caused by perversion or exaggeration of a natural instinct. (And why would we have instincts in the first place, instincts only make sense when there is a biological progress and you evolve from less sophisticated animals that totally rely on them to survive. If there was an intelligent design though, it would have been much more practical to design our bodies more machine like and just give us a brain to decide when it's the proper time to feed or reproduce, or even better, why would we need to be created as things that need to feed? When omnipotence creates, he can come up with anything.) The thing is, free will is something completely contextual, nobody wants to be able to decide everything, we already have lives in which a lot of things seem impossible or absolutely unnecessary, we don't consider them in our "will zone." I can't decide to fly and I don't ever consider deciding if I'll throw umbrellas into the ocean or not. Think of a person, religious or not, who is not greedy or prideful or lusty or in anyway sinful. He is not with these qualities, and not because he's holding up inside, but simply because such things don't even occur to him. To him, these are like what pedophilia is to you. That person still has free will, he can decide to travel, marry, pick which book to read, stay quiet, he can decide as many things as life delivers. Why not design everybody like that? Why not design a free will that will NOT lead to evil AT ALL.
And why would the free will of a creation be of any importance to God or the creation itself as long as there is happiness, anyway. If you had been created without free will, you wouldn't miss it at all, do dogs miss it, they can live perfectly jolly lives, can't they? Existing as we are is only essential to us because we are what we are, it's not like there is an actual necessity for a specie to be exactly like us. That's one other problem with religions, to be more precise, not just religions but the ages they were born in general: The primitive, egocentric cosmology, to see man at the heart of everything and to assume this universe was designed as an house to us. Even our astronomy was based on such an idea, that we were the center of everything. And although religions allegedly teach to be humble and not prideful on the front or maybe on an individual basis, their whole cosmology is based on this misconception that the Earth and the "animal kingdom" and the rivers and the sun, it's all put there for us. You dislike pride, stop assuming free will of humanity is an irreplaceable gem, consider yourself an organism among many with various traits, we've only been around for around 200.000 years and the universe was doing just fine without us for billions of years.
About the stuff on non-believers, those are all very recent interpretations. The world got much smaller, people communicate more and in this age, everybody, even the most extremely conservative xenophobe knows that cultural relativity is a reality to some degree. So, now the Pope says something like "atheists can also go to heaven if they are good people" etc. (And since he's infallible according to Catholic faith, you must agree ) But I think everybody realizes that's just modern times PR from the clergy, in order not to alienate people from religion further. If you look at both the texts and the tradition, having faith and being a member is of crucial importance in the Abrahamic line. A believer can commit awful sins but he can repent, while a perfectly role-model non-believer is screwed, whether in Limbo or in Hell doesn't matter much. The sociological fact is, heaven and hell were not just scripted as a reward/punishment tool to control how the members behave, they were also scripted to spread the religion further, non-believers having the same options wouldn't be functional, you had to give them a strong reason to join in.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 08:39 PM |
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How could anyone think that free-will is a bad thing? North Korea is the ideal contry to live in then...
If you have family, don't you want yourn kids to learn think their own. Even if like them to take same path as you do. Nothing more important than free-will it makes us persons, humans. If you 'fail' as a parent, kids grow up criminals, does that make you evil, that you have created a 'monster'? No, there are few factors genes, personality and environment.
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 08:49 PM |
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Maybe God doesn't have cable tv, so he needed some entertainment. Hence free will
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 08:54 PM |
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No aim sure He has Netflix, way better
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 02, 2015 09:41 PM |
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@artu
It's just that then I have to dig up the posts, which is a bit of a bore, and it tends to be uncomfortable for others, or so I think.
That idea of a not Sinful person is what in the field we call a pure person, the ideal I talked about when I was referring to man before sin, the problem is, that freedom doesn't include forbidden thoughts, or as I put it earlier God didn't stop Adam, if God were to design a free will with no possible way to do evil, would it be free will then? Wouldn't it be some kind of conditional will?
The problem is with excesses, once you get them in your system they ruin you, and then you start to crave more, sorta like an addiction, we usually tell people here that they are the ones with the naughty thoughts when they understand "that" part of a double entendre, since the pure, children, don't understand "that" thing, and such things don't pass through their mind at all.
Do you know if dogs have free will or not? They may be more instinctual than us, but we can't know if they have a degree of freedom of choice, unless I think that because of animalist organizations...
What distinguishes us from animals isn't rather freedom, but the ability to distinguish good from evil and the capacity to express complex concepts.
It depends on your view though, the earth is the centre of the universe if you put the static point on the earth.
But on a more serious note, the reason why even us today accept the modern cosmology is due to not being able to deny the evidence, else we'd be geocentric or heliocentric, as the Bible teaches, no such thing as graviting around a giant black hole or star or whatever there is at the centre of the galaxy.
I also included heliocentrism for a number of reasons that could be applied within the bible, notoriously the famous passage where Joshua ordered the sun to stop, where actually the earth stopped to give the illusion.
And that is the reason I believe that God has a sense of humour.
It wasn't pride but rather Divine Revelation that made us put the earth at the centre though, it would be now that we know that it isn't, and maybe there is a reason it's said so in the Bible even if untrue (without considering the possibility of it being false of course).
Look, according to modern theories by modern, albeit discredited, mystics God also created more beings other than us, which means, aliens exist apparently, hooray?
Well, Papal Infallibility works only when he's declaring a dogma or a doctrine, so technically he may be just doing some PR work, which would be terribly useless at that point if you consider that Atheists wouldn't need to convert when we need to get them inside...
But journalists tend to twist the Pope's words so...
The general message after all was what I said about that Divine law inside every man, but applying it to a see you there, which can be interpreted in various ways, and honestly, the Pope doesn't fully know Italian, once instead of saying "caso" or case for you Anglo-speakers he said the Italian equivalent of the male member, in the swear word sense, you can imagine the laughs we all had over that. (Sometimes there are things on which you can't maintain composure...)
Imagine this phrase said by the Pope: "And in this penis the divine providence makes itself visible..." Yes, it was that bad, but poor guy, he didn't know how easy it is to make such a mistake, and instead of making a profound religious statement he made a bad porn movie quote...
Anyway, we know actually very little about the heavenly realms and how and who enters, the only things we know are these:
Hell is a pit of fire
Almost half of the dead go to Hell, almost a half go to purgatory, the rest go to heaven directly, as was stated some years ago, who knows if the numbers changed.
Heaven cannot be compared to nothing.
Unfortunately God doesn't reveal everything, which is good, it keeps the surprise alive, and in the most important sense, if we knew exactly what to do to enter, we'd probably live our lives in the most excess and then just do those steps required and go to Heaven anyway.
By the way, as one mystic put it, apparently in purgatory there are also the souls of Protestants and Pagans, but they have a lessened pain to endure but at the same time they have to stay longer. Catholics suffer the most, but get ejected the fastest.
But take that with a grain of salt, or at least I take it with a grain of salt, as there hasn't been yet an official pronunciation from the Vatican regarding this...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 02, 2015 09:49 PM |
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Is it possible that I always make long replies?
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 09:49 PM |
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Neraus said:
Almost half of the dead go to Hell, almost a half go to purgatory, the rest go to heaven directly...
Unfortunately God doesn't reveal everything, which is good, it keeps the surprise alive
surprise! most of us are going to hell, by religious standards. so bring marshmallows and hot dogs. 
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somi
Known Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 09:51 PM |
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This is my thinking. I am not posting this to insult anyone.
"what you think about christianity? "
Same thing as about any religion. Its a fairy tale for adults.
I think world would be a lot better place without it, and while it is slowly moving in that direction with increase education of general population, its moving to dam slow.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 02, 2015 10:12 PM |
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fred79 said:
Neraus said:
Almost half of the dead go to Hell, almost a half go to purgatory, the rest go to heaven directly...
Unfortunately God doesn't reveal everything, which is good, it keeps the surprise alive
surprise! most of us are going to hell, by religious standards. so bring marshmallows and hot dogs.
Don't forget cards and money!
...
Wait...
Are you sure you aren't eligible for purgatory instead?
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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