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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 01, 2015 03:43 PM |
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Quote:
If we want to survive as a species we cannot rely on "God" caring for us - we have to make sure we are prepared to prevent such an occurence happening again.
What profit to a man's soul to call himself a species? You are nothing like any species on Earth. Christians have always been responsible for self and others and Earth. Non-belief has the same responsibility in any <ahem> civilized society.
But look around today, you think God is bad? The machine-age is far worse than any belief in Christ has caused because true belief in Christ does NOT lead you on witch-hunts or Crusades. Religion, like politics can be usurped but Power & Greed (SELF only)lies behind all evil. This is what should be feared today; Satan, "the dark-force" moving within humanity, caused millions and millions of deaths in the 20th century. Jesus is the only way for me...there is no other. EOS
@Homer,
Can you give me a short story about how you became a Christian? You can send it in an HCM if you prefer. For once, would not it be wonderful if Christians could discuss their similarities and differences without others wanting to derail into another O.T. "Religion Thread"? Of course, I'm assuming from you've written that you are not in Old-Testament chains and are actually trying your best to "Follow the Way"? 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 01, 2015 04:24 PM |
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@ Neraus
If you allow for free will, you have to be prepared to hear a No! If you tell your new friend you love her, and you ask her whether she loves you as well, you can't kill her, when she answers no - you wouldn't love her at all if you did.
If you are not prepared - why allow for free will in the first place? Since we HAVE free will - why on Earth should we do what HE wants us to do? Don't you see that fundamental flaw, playing God's advocate? That's parent/child relation of old: you have children you EXPECT to do what you envision for them - and woe to them if they have their own ideas about it.
That's not how it works, though, not with free will, so God should have put some more good old EFFORT into the education of his creations - warning them about the Serpent might have been a good idea.
@ Markkur
markkur said:
Quote:
If we want to survive as a species we cannot rely on "God" caring for us - we have to make sure we are prepared to prevent such an occurence happening again.
What profit to a man's soul to call himself a species? You are nothing like any species on Earth. Christians have always been responsible for self and others and Earth. Non-belief has the same responsibility in any <ahem> civilized society.
But look around today, you think God is bad? The machine-age is far worse than any belief in Christ has caused because true belief in Christ does NOT lead you on witch-hunts or Crusades. Religion, like politics can be usurped but Power & Greed (SELF only)lies behind all evil. This is what should be feared today; Satan, "the dark-force" moving within humanity, caused millions and millions of deaths in the 20th century. Jesus is the only way for me...there is no other. EOS
Everything I was allowed to become as an individual I owe the generations and generations that came before me, who weathered the storms of time and helped developing our society to the current point. It would depend which point in known history you'd pick as the starting point, but it would be at least 5000 years, and at most a couple hundred thousands. For me, personally I'd roughly estimate 10.000 years of time, and I'm a very small part of that development of our species.
Others, in contrast to that, didn't make it, and have become extinct, for example the Neandertalers.
So I stand on the shoulders of my species, as a member and example of it, and my task as part of that species is to add to the shoulders coming generations will stand.
You know Markkur, it takes an awful lot of time and it's an awful lot of work, but the only thing we can do is TRY HARD to understand what's going on, and frankly, believing that everything is fine as long as we follow God's laws would have done fück all for beating pests, droughts or floods.
Believing in Jesus is fine - but taking each other's hand and singing a song won't solve the problems we face, neither individually nor as a species.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 01, 2015 04:31 PM |
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@ neraus: i was under the impression that claiming to know the mind of god was a sin. i've been told that by christians and catholics both, even though they both have broken that "rule".
so tell me, if claiming to know the mind of god, as someone who is religious, is a sin, then why does everyone do it when they're trying to explain their pov? is it really a sin, or only claimed to be, whenever people lack explanation?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 01, 2015 04:53 PM |
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Ok JJ, we are where we were.
fred79 said:
so tell me, if claiming to know the mind of god, as someone who is religious, is a sin, then why does everyone do it when they're trying to explain their pov? is it really a sin, or only claimed to be, whenever people lack explanation?
For what it is worth Fred, I follow Christ and when things pop up that he did not discuss? I leave that in God's realm. I "think" it is safe to say "most" Christians are not wanting to speak for God, only the words of Faith that have been shared already. <imo> The problems begin with Christians start mixing elements in the O.T. stories, poems and myths into Christian doctrines. i.e. I could say God told me "Eye for an Eye" but that is NOT what Christ taught and therefore if Christ does represent God, then God is NOT teaching that today.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 01, 2015 05:40 PM |
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@fred
Did I? I stated the intentions that are clear to me, not that I know His mind. If that's what you're referring to.
Or at least I don't know the mind of God, if that is the impression you took from my discourse, I'm stating either what if scenarios or what transpires from what is written.
And even then how could I even get what God truly thinks with my measly tools.
Granted I like to theorize, but I don't hold the true intelligence.
But if it seems so I'll have to see more carefully, and change accordingly...
I have spotted something which I've changed already, and it was an omission of a "I think", I'm sorry, sometimes when I write I make errors due to my haste in writing...
But anyway, claiming to know the mind of God is an act of pride too, that's the reason it's a sin, but there is a difference in claiming that you know what are the ideas, the reasons behind every action and the mentality of God, and simply stating or deducing something from the Scriptures, then there is a lesser form which is dangerous but it may depend on what is said and is deducing through reason, something much more difficult to do without thinking too much of oneself's intellect.
But, please let me know if there is something else that seems that I stated as the absolute truth of God's mind.
@JJ
But the idea of a "No" was contemplated, Christ has already explained how it works, you may decide where to stand, as long as you aren't an hypocrite, which at that point He won't accept you.
You can decide not to obey God, were you given some thunders on your head when you decided to be on your own regarding that?
That is the whole point, and after your death you'll be in a place where there is no God, and then it will depend on who's right about it.
If you want we can discuss about Hell, but it's a subject too obscure for human knowledge, and we shall return once more to the realm of what ifs...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 01, 2015 05:55 PM |
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Yeah... I'm abandoning this thread since it has become a wasteful ego debate between theists and atheists (specially).
I don't waste my time in such fights.
Cheers everyone.
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Death to the world.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 01, 2015 07:46 PM |
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Svartzorn said:
Yeah... I'm abandoning this thread since it has become a wasteful ego debate between theists and atheists (specially).
I don't waste my time in such fights.
Cheers everyone.
lol, the ego comes into play in any human conversation, because everyone speaks from the ego. that's just reality, man. it's in the undercurrent of all communication between humans. if you're dealing with people, you're dealing with ego, plain and simple. the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.
@ neraus: it wasn't so much exact words(and you're not the only one, don't get that idea). it's just a running theme i see in the religious, period. not anything personal. although, if you're trying to keep yourself in line with your religion, i commend you. most people aren't very good at that.
@ markurr: that's one of the things that i never got about the bibles and the differences in faith: the old testament is the first bible, right? so how is that one no longer valid once the new testament comes along? from what i've read, there were many similarities in storyline, between moses and jesus. so was the new testament just a rewrite of the old? is it the nicer, friendlier version of the old testament? because that's the impression i get from the new testament.
so, does it make sense that some people prefer the nicer, friendlier version of the bible(meaning, it's more palatable for their tastes), even though the old testament came first? and do the people who follow the old testament prefer the far more sadistic version of god and religion, merely because it is the original bible? what do you think(that question is for christians and catholics here)?
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 01, 2015 08:30 PM |
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True, fred.
But that doesn't mean I have to participate in ego wars or cultivate my own ego.
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Death to the world.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 01, 2015 09:06 PM |
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As far as I'm concerned this is a friendly banter, not a "war".
And I really, really hate it when people reduce a complex conversational situation with a lot of different positions to a bipolar conflict.
That's very superficial.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 01, 2015 10:04 PM |
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Edited by artu at 05:17, 02 Dec 2015.
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Neraus said:
Evil is allowed because we won't reject it, the devil has power because we allow him to hold power over us, but if humanity didn't succumb to its animal instincts and maintained a pure heart the devil would stay in the hell he belongs to, but alas, man had to fall for the greatest miracle to happen anyway.
If God gave Adam the freedom to choose why would He force Adam not to eat once the man was about to eat the fruit? That is the question, rather than: Why did God allow satan to trick Adam.
After all, the command was clear, the authority was well established, who could contradict God? Only some beings with a pride bigger than the skies, and in that case we have two, with such a pride, satan and Adam, after all why eat the fruit if you didn't want to elevate yourself above God?
The fault in the reasoning of saying that God created evil because we had it embedded in us is faulty, our evil is a product of free will, and freely we can decide what to do, if God were a control freak like you say, requesting men to submit to him why grant free will at all, why not have automatons and get it over with? There would be no evil if we were automatons after all, since, no one could say what's right or wrong.
If God were to obligate us to think in a certain way then yes, the fault would lie within Him, but since we can choose no, the fault lies with us, since this is the price of freedom.
Ok, for the sake of argument, I will assume there is an absolute free will (I think our capacity to decide things is not absolute and a lot of the time external or biological factors determine a lot, but whatever.) First of all, free will doesn't necessarily result in evil. If you are a design of an omnipotent intelligent entity, he can very well design you to be capable of decision, yet without the urge to do evil things. I gave this example in the past, think of pedophilia, a normal person who isn't a pedophile does not want to have sex with children, yet, his free will is still intact. Imagine we were all "created" as pedophiles, and when someone asked "why did God put this urge inside us" he was given the answer "so, you'll be able to decide not to rape children with your own free will." It wouldn't make much sense, would it. You're totally ignoring that free will is not about what motivates you, it's about what you can do with the motivation, so JJ's objection due to God's responsibility is still valid, and mostly your answers are full of "we'll never know" I mentioned earlier, which would have at least been consistent, if on the other hand, you weren't so sure about what God demands.
And, in Christian theology, evil is not just coming out of ignorance and not knowing better, that would be Socrates. No, there is a devil and there are people who willingly choose his way because they give in to many things, not just pride. By the way, not practicing blind obedience isn't exactly pride either and having to pick a fruit from "the tree of knowledge" is basically curiosity, which isn't an evil thing at all, but this objection would probably end in the famous "God knows better than you."
The worst part, however, is that it's not even about your actions most of the time, it's about membership. Somebody born in a distant village in the Amazons who never heard of this stuff at all, still ends out of Christian heaven. Whether it's torture or oblivion as in your rather diplomatic interpretation of hell, doesn't matter much.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 02, 2015 02:07 AM |
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fred79 said:
@ markurr: that's one of the things that i never got about the bibles and the differences in faith: the old testament is the first bible, right? so how is that one no longer valid once the new testament comes along? from what i've read, there were many similarities in storyline, between moses and jesus. so was the new testament just a rewrite of the old? is it the nicer, friendlier version of the old testament? because that's the impression i get from the new testament.
so, does it make sense that some people prefer the nicer, friendlier version of the bible(meaning, it's more palatable for their tastes), even though the old testament came first? and do the people who follow the old testament prefer the far more sadistic version of god and religion, merely because it is the original bible? what do you think(that question is for christians and catholics here)?
The NT writers specify that Jesus gives a new law to complete the old. Some of course interpret that any way they like...
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 02, 2015 04:40 AM |
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artu said:
The worst part, however, is that it's not even about your actions most of the time, it's about membership. Somebody born in a distant village in the Amazons who never heard of this stuff at all, still ends out of Christian heaven. Whether it's torture or oblivion as in your rather diplomatic interpretation of hell, doesn't matter much.
Artu how in the world do you know the above to be true? Christ said many times if "you" (meaning any of us) are able to, be some way, how can you think God cannot do it better? (modern words)
As a compassionate human being I wouldn't fry anyone because they truly did not know about Christ. And if I would not, take it to the bank God would not. Jesus said; "I seek your compassion NOT your sacrifices". In the end, this is God's domain and I do not call the shots but I know where I would put my bet regarding that outcome. 
Btw, Separation from God is usually a decision. I would not for a second think the Lord would fry the mentally incapable either. That's not a ruthlessness that can be identified in Christ.
____________
"Do your own research"
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 02, 2015 04:49 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 04:50, 02 Dec 2015.
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fred79@ said:
markurr: that's one of the things that i never got about the bibles and the differences in faith: the old testament is the first bible, right? so how is that one no longer valid once the new testament comes along? from what i've read, there were many similarities in storyline, between moses and jesus. so was the new testament just a rewrite of the old? is it the nicer, friendlier version of the old testament? because that's the impression i get from the new testament.
so, does it make sense that some people prefer the nicer, friendlier version of the bible(meaning, it's more palatable for their tastes), even though the old testament came first? and do the people who follow the old testament prefer the far more sadistic version of god and religion, merely because it is the original bible? what do you think(that question is for christians and catholics here)?
Jesus was the fulfillment of the O.T. the end of the old covenant. Had the O.T. still been all we had today I would have to say I would not be in the family. <imo> That is exactly why Christ was needed and why he had been foretold all along.
Keep in mind who is enemies were...was it not the religious of the time? Purple status, high-seats, spectacle prayer and ready stonings? And see the conflict in the San Hedren with the high-priest. Jesus is the high-priest so the show was a necessary confrontation, but observe how the Lord fights.
Christ said; "Many of you say Lord, Lord but your hearts are far from me".
Please just read the Story of Christ and I'm sure you are going to get it.
____________
"Do your own research"
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 05:00 AM |
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markkur said:
Btw, Separation from God is usually a decision. I would not for a second think the Lord would fry the mentally incapable either. That's not a ruthlessness that can be identified in Christ.
what if you like the ideas jesus spouted, and like the guy himself(as a man, not as a prophet), but cannot see yourself bending over backward for a vengeful and irrational god(if it exists, which i don't believe it does)? would you say that person would go to hell(lol, hint: that person is me)?
i have to tell you, if i was religious(i'm not, nor a believer), i would be on the side against god. simply because i don't serve people(or anything) i don't respect, due to their behavior(if what is in the bible is actually true). no, i would willingly go to hell, before i would bow before such an entity(especially for all eternity). if hell had an army, you can bet i'd be among their ranks, just to take down the god that was described in the bible.
i think of satan as more of a humanist than anything. that movie "the devil's advocate", to me, is a rather accurate portrayal of lucifer(at least, in his speeches to his son).
the way i look at it, an ominipotent and all-powerful being who supposedly loves his creations, wouldn't allow the torturous conditions he imposes on mankind, simply as some rock-polisher, to refine humanity in order to "be worthy of him".
here on earth, we call people like that arrogant and sadistic. i would call any god the same thing. no disrespect to the religous, mind you, i just hate the god that is represented in the bible. doesn't sound like the kinda entity i could ever grow to even like, let alone worship.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 05:01 AM |
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markkur said:
Jesus was the fulfillment of the O.T. the end of the old covenant. Had the O.T. still been all we had today I would have to say I would not be in the family. <imo> That is exactly why Christ was needed and why he had been foretold all along.
Keep in mind who is enemies were...was it not the religious of the time? Purple status, high-seats, spectacle prayer and ready stonings? And see the conflict in the San Hedren with the high-priest. Jesus is the high-priest so the show was a necessary confrontation, but observe how the Lord fights.
Christ said; "Many of you say Lord, Lord but your hearts are far from me".
Please just read the Story of Christ and I'm sure you are going to get it.
thanks for answering. i'll take a gander.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 12:11 PM |
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@ Neraus
What Christ said is pretty irrelevant considering the reasons why it actually came to being in that situation.
The dilemma here is this: if we take the OT seriously, we have to take Genesis seriously, and if we do that we have to look at what the first guys including God did to land us where we were.
However, if we wave the OT off as symbolic or whatever to avoid a debate about that - where do we stand with regard to Jesus, considering he did built on it.
Which is one of the problems, discussing with Christians. Today, a majority says, well, the OT is somewhat archaic and I, for my part, simply ignore it. I look at Christ, and that's it, that's why I am a Christian, not a Jew.
That, however, is a very modern view; if you look at history, Western society and its laws are based on the OT part of the Bible, and the more serious changes have all been made recently.
For example, after the apple incident, God decreed that "thy husband shall rule over thee" - an attitude that obviously survived until the 20th century, so obviously Jesus didn't change anything here. Considering that another part read, "In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children", and that part didn't change either, you might make a fine case, that Jesus actually didn't change anything, except offering "salvation" after death.
I don't think, you can say, well, the old geezer is somewhat not my cup of tea, but Christ was the real deal - I really believe in him, but the rest is too archaic to stomach.
That's resulting in a couple of well-known problems (for example the fact that God would seem to have a real issue with homosexuality) - meaning the Bible is a rather complex affair when you want to determine what Christianity is all about.
Now, going back to what made me post in the first place, Christianity and Free Will - I think, that while Christianity needs the concept in order to even remotely work (because of the concept of individual accountability and the necessity to explain God's less-than-loving behaviour), paradoxically enough no one, God included, is respecting it. Instead the arguing goes, God (and his institutional deputies) lay down the laws, and free will is limited to the decision to obey them or not. If we obey them everything is fine, if not, bad decision.
ARTU tried to explain something along the likes, and I did as well - but let's try it this way:
The CLAIM is, you freely decide whether you want to be with God or not. But IN FACT you pick between the consequences of your choice. I think, that's why "buying" voters isn't allowed: candidates can't say, everyone who votes for me will get 100 bucks, and everyone who doesn't vote for me will get 100 lashes.
So we are in a somewhat paradox situation here: SUPPOSEDLY god is loving the humans and wants their love as well; free will means, if he's lovable, enough people will WILLINGLY love him.
In fact, though, he is not lovable, but TERRIFYING and offers an either or only. He isn't loved - just feared.
Bottom line is - doesn't add up. Free will has nothing to do with it. It's just based on good old FEAR.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 02, 2015 01:09 PM |
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markkur said:
Quote:
@Homer,
Can you give me a short story about how you became a Christian?
Yes, sure. About 7 years ago, I had everything in life, then I started thinking something is still missing. I tough it was a wife, when I had these on/off relationships, I was sick of them. I prayed that I would have a wife what where ment for me and nothing more of these bimbos in my life. I beliaved there might be a God who watches over, this was quite big deal anyway, a wife..
Few months later I dated a girl who was infact the same girl I had my first cruss on, over 10 years ago! Everything was fine, loved her like a crazy and tough this was it, what I where missing in life... Then her "annoying" sister got "saved" and become a christian. She talked whit me, saying I need to get saved, know Jesus and all that bull.. I really disliked this kinda aproach "you need" and what she knew about me and God anyway, I was praying for wife and now I had girl of my dreams. I tough I was cool whit God and don't need any church or religions for that! Out of courtesy I agreed to go for one church meeting whit my gf and her sister. In the end, her sister never came to that fateful meeting!
We went to this place where they give free food for the poor and then somebody preaches the gosbel. There was this missionary evangelist, talking about crusified Jesus. I felt something inside of me. Suddenly I felt like a rotten blanket. I was never felt being a sinner before, it had nothing to do whit convincing words of preacher or any of that. Then I saw a light, again inside of me. I felt the love and understood it accepts me even in my dirty state. I wanted it to reach out to me, then the preacher asked: "Are there anyone who likes to give their lives to Jesus?" Both me and my gf lift our hands. At end, preacher said: "The ones who said yes, to Jesus. Come here in front." There was about 100 people in the room, I was looking where is the exit. Then I looked at my gf and asked does she want to go, we both agreed. We went, just the two of us. Preacher took bouth of my hands in his and asked: "What do you want, young man?" I said something silly like, more faith or beliave. That my heart was open to God was important. Preacher said something simple and suddenly the power of God felt over me and I fell to the floor. I stand up. Felt so fresh and light weight. People around me asked do I have bible and engouraged me to read New Testament. My gf got saved then aswell, she did not experience any 'lightning strike', heavy burden lift over her shoulders.
Our lifes changed completely after that day. I read New Testament many times over. Holy Spirit started teaching me and everyday i learn something new. We get married whit my gf. Even now, I amaze God's grace and love what is found in Jesus. All that i said is, my experience of God and lot of miraculos things I have witnessed, but we all have different experiences and lifes.
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 02, 2015 02:14 PM |
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Homer171 said:
Our lifes changed completely after that day. I read New Testament many times over. Holy Spirit started teaching me and everyday i learn something new. We get married whit my gf. Even now, I amaze God's grace and love what is found in Jesus. All that i said is, my experience of God and lot of miraculos things I have witnessed, but we all have different experiences and lifes.
Heartwarming testimony. My wife and I had about the same happen; I had a supernatural experience while hers was much more mellow but like the two of you, we both had "that event that changes lives" and were blown away by the change.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 02, 2015 02:17 PM |
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markkur said:
Homer171 said:
Our lifes changed completely after that day. I read New Testament many times over. Holy Spirit started teaching me and everyday i learn something new. We get married whit my gf. Even now, I amaze God's grace and love what is found in Jesus. All that i said is, my experience of God and lot of miraculos things I have witnessed, but we all have different experiences and lifes.
Heartwarming testimony. My wife and I had about the same happen; I had a supernatural experience while hers was much more mellow but like the two of you, we both had "that event that changes lives" and were blown away by the change.
John 6:35-40 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 02, 2015 02:22 PM |
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Btw, talking about the incompatibility of Abrahamic monotheism and Zoroastrianist duality made me remember this scene from the 1954 Robinson Crusoe, if I'm not mistaken, this dialogue is not in the original novel, at least not in this sarcastic manner, I remember the original novel ends with Robinson burning some Tatar totem in the name of doing a good Christian deed, so I'm probably right, can't be sure though, it's been so many years.
Robinson and Friday discuss God and the Devil
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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This thread is pages long: 
