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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 14, 2018 06:37 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:39, 14 Jan 2018.
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@Sal
You never said anything about their intelligence but you said they are often ugly, so I replied, (indicating whether they are ugly or not), it is more about their mind not physics. May I remind you #metoo started out with gorgeous Hollywood stars "coming out of the closet" one by one? Where do you put this "factual" theory of yours regarding that?
Also, when talking about wars, this was a post written by... wait for it... YOU, a few weeks ago:
Quote:
99,9% of Europeans will agree with you, so who you talking too? The geopolitical designs are decided at a level we don't have access or any word to say, but then you will also have to criticize the leftist and liberal press which is emphasizing only one side of the reality (brexit, Ukraine, N Korea, Russian "interference"? - while yesterday we read that USA is sending weapons in Ukraine).
And now you tell me that those geopolitical designs which are in other words, wars, are to defend your culture and family? The psychological motive of any soldier is of course molded with ideological or sentimental propaganda of the day, a medieval soldier wasnt told that he was going to battle so that one dynasty could grab over other's land, and the average peasant would still have the same life no matter who owned the land, just like a marine isn't told he is going to Iraq to preserve resource interests of his state yet that mostly means the interest of the banks and corporations. It's like you will flex any arguments incuding your own just to always remain on one side: Anti-left. That is literally what bias is.
@Zenofex
Yeah, well, fair point but it doesnt always work that way, especially if it's RECENT history.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted January 14, 2018 07:01 PM |
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@artu, you were talking about patriarchy through history, I specified the capital and heroic role men had, through history too. To which you quote me on examples from modern times, where I was talking about wars for profit and imperialistic designs which lead to immigration abuses, then try to spot some contradiction. There is none.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 14, 2018 07:05 PM |
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Patriarchy didn't exist through out history because men were heroic, neither did wars. Also, you must really decide if you want such an ideology to remain in THESE times, whether it is dipped in some heroism sauce or not.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted January 14, 2018 07:38 PM |
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@artu, don't be so patronizing with those who gave their life, I'm not using that argument for a rhetorical purpose but for showing both perspectives.
What I'm saying and I stop repeating myself here - get it or not, is that gross and vindictive movements as feminists today have rather a negative impact on man-woman relation, instead of bringing them together, as society evolved enough for that. They keep bickering about the harmful effects of patriarchy during past times, and surely there were a lot - I do not deny that, while totally skipping the obvious good parts, where men WERE necessary to a society survival, through individual sacrifice, hunting, gather food, protect. I do not put patriarchy and heroic sacrifice as obviously correlated, nonetheless it is logical to think that when you send the best men to defend and die for, there may be some claim to a higher responsibility. Then also, patriarchy was not hazardous, it is a genetic reality with an enlightening influence which has brought humanity out of the mud into civilization.
Feminism only exists in the shadow of the massive abundance produced by patriarchy. Patriarchy is not the enemy nor the source of modern inequalities, it was a division of social roles based in natural biological gender differences, the kind of vital strategic determination you need to keep your group alive.
Do we still need it today? Probably not, but repeatedly bashing it as evil is, in my opinion, very ignorant of how mankind developed.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 14, 2018 08:06 PM |
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So, you do argue that patriarchy IS completely over. That's too far a stretch and linking the past to biology is not exactly the complete picture. Some differences are biological of course but then such differences are only "natural" when you live as hunter gatherer groups with no property, no inheritance, one alpha male till the next one offs him, no permanent social hierarchy.... Any deviation from that can be considred "unnatural" then.
Also, zillions of people gave their life under zillions of dedications, Nazis or Jihadists can also die bravely. And there are other forms of bravery as well, life wasnt a piece of cake for women just because they didnt die in the battlefield. Such things arent really relevant when discussing patriarchy itself. And if we return to the article, it is not overzealous, obsessed with the past or divisive in the sense you accuse. So, when you put one that isnt so in the basket of "toxic feminism" then you become the divisive one. Men and women can get along in harmony only if we actually listen to each other, they are already used to hearing our perspective all the time, it's not a heavy burden to listen to theirs for a real change. Of course, her side of the story will be different, you act like that is an abomination.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted January 14, 2018 09:36 PM |
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This is becoming quite disgraceful now.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 14, 2018 11:46 PM |
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In my opinion the problem is not about the importance of this topics like racism or sexism, cause they are important, but how are they handled. They're practically shoved into your face to the point of hysteria. Most of the times it's like a cummulation: and it's not about delivering the message, but banging the heads of others with it. For instance now you open the news and it's sexism everywhere in the articles.
You see from my perspective it looks like this. A few years/months back racism was the talk of the town. In America it was about the Afro-American minority. In Europe we have Muslims. In America we have a flood of movies where black or other colored/different people are 'the good guys' and other people (preferably white people) are bad. Sometimes the message is simple: we still struggle, please be more aware of our situation. But sometimes it is some kind of manifestos to make others feel like s*it, supposedly white people. I somehow even treat it as personal attacks, because I'm white myself.
And I know sexism and racism is a serious problem cause it has so many layers. Those are deeply rooted problems which have a context that is as long as history of mankind probably. I'm a simple European white male living my everyday life. But I too had situations when I would be beaten up cause I was simply walking by the street and some thugs wanted to attack me. It didn't matter if I was a white, black or any other guy. Or I've heard some harsh words from my former boss who even went so far as to tell me I'm not fitted to do my line of work because he had some kind of prejudice against me. Not to mention all those times when I needed to proove my worth to him. I'm working in a different company and doing just fine in this same type of job.
My point is: everyone struggles, so don't take it to the extreme. Don't make other people lives miserable because you had some bad expieriences or they have other views (or impossible as it may sound for you, they 'dare' to disagree with your views). And for the love of everything don't try to impose those views on others (like the so called political correctness).
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Stevie
Responsible
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posted January 15, 2018 01:34 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 15, 2018 02:24 AM |
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How come you concur, I remember you were almost identical with Salamandre when it comes to feminism.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 15, 2018 03:08 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 15, 2018 03:36 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:37, 15 Jan 2018.
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He referred to some of Sal's arguments, not my objections. Although, he may also be thinking they are not even worth objecting to and I'm wasting my time.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted January 15, 2018 07:41 AM |
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Yeah sure, not worth what, once more you think are full of truth. Majority of women disagree with you, and that is what matters.
The article starts by claiming lies and fueling gender animosity (tell me WHICH are my extra rights that women don't have) then its one more bashing (how brave) on Deneuve's (and one hundred of other intellectuals, she only signed it, she is not the author) letter, when already all the media here and in the USA are leading the "Internationale" against.
She is only saying that you can't cook eggs without breaking them, that most men need to push things to be able to seduce women, because that's what women WANT, they pick the most masculine, the most self confident, the ones who have most social power and influence, basically the ones who are able to protect them and they need to PROVE that, by winning the seduction game. That doesn't mean by ANY stretch that men have somehow the right to abuse, rape and sexually profit, is only showing whats the reality.
Feminism became a revenge movement and wants to strip and castrate all men, reason for why a majority of women and men do not identity as feminists, while naturally being in favor of equality of rights.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 15, 2018 07:55 AM |
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Edited by artu at 07:57, 15 Jan 2018.
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I can asurre you majority of women dont disagree with me over you. Majority of women don't prefer to associate themselves directly with third or fourth wave feminism for various reasons, that is NOT what the article is about, the writer is also critical of the fourth wave in specific.
But if you tell any sane woman that patriarchy is justified because all the best men heroically died in wars or that seduction in the work place is a must because they are slaves to power and sometimes you gotta break eggs to make an omlet and accidents just happen from time to time so they should shut up about it or that feminists are feminists because they are often ugly and lonely, you just might realize what somebody wanting to castrate you is actually like. 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted January 15, 2018 08:00 AM |
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How the writer is critical with modern feminism when she claims exactly same crap, that men have extra rights. Tell me which rights I have that women don't.
artu said:
accidents just happen from time to time so they should shut up about
uh?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 15, 2018 08:06 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:09, 15 Jan 2018.
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Referring to, in a sarcastic tone, to Denevue's "right to bother" to explain that her letter is overcritical of the #metoo hastag, by saying "yeah, as if men don't have enough rights" is not fourth wave feminism or even any -ism. Any woman can take such a poke.
Quote:
uh?
#metoo hashtag is them speaking up about it.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted January 15, 2018 08:12 AM |
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Well, as one who see most of his divorced colleagues paying monthly astronomical amount of money (to women who btw have already correct income) then not being able to see their kids more than one a month, I am offended by such "poke". But try to explain that to a feminist.
So what are my rights a women doesn't have?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 15, 2018 08:21 AM |
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You can easily brag about how you like them young, live accordingly and then biatch about society losing family values without anybody calling you a biatch. 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2018 10:01 PM |
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fred79 said:
but most of the feminists and the blm movement weren't even born when the actually sexist/racist stuff was happening. that's like me talking about the horrors of ww2, man. that's literally like me hating germans because of what happened in ww2. or hating vietnamese for the vietnam war, etc. it's literally THAT ridiculous. it's one of the weakest and most ridiculous arguments i've ever seen them try to base any of their rightousness off of.
to expand on that(because i wanted to clarify that part primarily before moving on), it doesn't help that so many people ENJOY bringing up a horrible past, like it still exists today. that's why i have such a problem with CONTINUING RACISM movies about how black people had to "overcome" the injustices of whatever in the past. what was the last movie about? running? swimming? and moreover, they don't care that they're being baited and made to relive the hatred by hollywood, or by anyone else. they'd rather play the victim card.
i'm guessing no one is arguing with this because we all agree it's true? cool. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 17, 2018 11:33 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:35, 17 Jan 2018.
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Okay, fred. I'll take the bait since I liked that Karma joke.
I already kind of explained this in my first reply to you but I guess it kind of flew by. It is only you who says racism is completely over. Comparing it to the kind of stuff in the 60's, of course there's great progress. But that argument was not much different in the 60's either, it was nothing like the 30's after all, what more did people want? The thing is when you say there is no racism anymore, you base it on what you personally notice around (you explained that earlier), yet, there may be a lot of things that escapes your attention when you are not a minority yourself and the norms are shaped according to your demographic. I'm not suggesting every complaint about racism is true, it is indeed exploited sometimes and people victimizing themselves way too easily these days is also a real problem. But that does not mean racism or sexism are completely historical issues of the past.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted January 18, 2018 12:03 AM |
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The less effective way to fight racism is precisely allowing more mexican/arabs/africains illegals into a/any country then masquerading about compassion and cry racist to everyone complaining. Stop doing that first, respect the laws and constitutions, deport all illegals, reform all immigration and asylum recent slipperies then is guaranteed you solve most of racism and see the real progress. When you fuel, it burns.
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This thread is pages long: 
