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Salamandre
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posted September 09, 2019 11:25 PM |
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The usual blah-blah. When you pass an exam, you will be accepted with a 0.1 note percentage higher then the guy right behind you, you get the job, he doesn't, period. You won by a tiny percentage, does that mean he has any rights to smear you and get over the line? Pass again the exam until he gets first? What is this non sense?
Nobody is pointing fingers as remoaners for moaning - that's part of the spectacle, but for trying to overturn the results, because "they know it better". You had all news-papers, reputed as "objective", constantly promoting the idea that brexiteers are either uneducated, or too old, or too dumb. That they should revote. The Parliament is a disgrace, delaying for 3 years while secretively hopping a miracle so the whole thing being erased. People are divided so what? as always in politics.
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Neraus
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posted September 10, 2019 02:06 AM |
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Yeah, basically that's the same thing that we're dealing with here.
Almost.
You see, having things overturned by shady dealings done in your back is infuriating, we were technically heading towards new elections, as the League dropped their support for the government, and until some weeks ago M5S and PD were sworn enemies tbat would have probably slaughtered themselves with reckless abandon, savouring the blood spilled and taking their heads as trophies. Then it turns out they now love each other, claims of them ruining the country were "exaggerated" and all the claims of PD being degenerate child brainwashing corrupt cronies were just "half rumours" and Renzi? He isn't that bad.
Yeah, it's legitimate, it's constitutional, it's a majority yet...
That feels like a huge betrayal of your constituents is it not? You were there months ago claiming that the opposition were less than humans, scum of the lowliest grade that you could never bear to see alive. Yet people are defending this... Guess why? It keeps Salvini from becoming PM and gaining an overwhelming majority in parliament, like it never happened before here.
Now, I get you people want to talk about the UK, but look at it this way, even if it was a close call, a majority voted for Brexit, the popular mandate is with leaving yet... Three years and nothing happened yet, they had the excuse of negotiating, but now? It's clear it's just obstructionism with the faint hope of just overturning the result.
Yet nobody would have complained if the parties were reversed, amd remain won by a narrow margin, just like this government here, that will be formed by a narrow margin is now loved and hailed as a victory by everyone, I shudder at the thought of the insults if it was the League that formed a majority government by a narrow margin.
So deal with it, we complain, because people don't live by their standards, because in the end we all are hooligans rooting for our team, and boy, stolen victories are what burn the most. Just don't pretend to be the superior side, because you know, there is only one superior side, and it has hidden itself for too long.
Long live the Kingdom of Sicily.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted September 10, 2019 07:24 AM |
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Galaad said:
tSar-Ivor said:
half of labour and tories want brexit, that will still leave half the country unrepresented
Around half. A small majority still is a majority, if you don't respect a majority you're not in democracy. What is the alternative? Have a minority rule the world? Oh wait... 
I agree it is a problem when a country is divided so closely, but I ask again how would you make the system better if you were to redefine it?
Eh, there's nothing terribly wrong with the system, the referendum is NOT binding.
As this causes fundamental changes damn right it needs a super-majority, have a referendum every damn day if it pleases you. A democracy is unanimity, a goddamn consensus, anything else is naut, you compromise and you deal or you succumb, but you either agree or you don't. As crazy it sounds in theory, in practice it works (everytime I tried it never failed to get a consensus which surprised me deeply). Regardless anyone that tells me that 51% can vote the other 49% off a cliff and calls it democracy is crazier than I am.
Not that I have the same attachment to democracy as many do, an abhorrent system of governance that we English have perfectly integrated into our politics out of necessity so that the people have a voice but at the same time do not interfere with the sound running of the country. Which is why this referendum baffles me so, if we get Brexit it wasn't because 51% of the 'people' voted for it you can bet your ass on it, people running this country aren't mentally handicapped as to put the fate of this nation in the hands of the plebs. I just hope to god we have a solid plan, if we're just banking on a hard six I will laugh.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 10, 2019 08:38 AM |
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Salamandre said:
The usual blah-blah. When you pass an exam,
Right, the usual blah-blah. Exams and passing have nothing to do with it. There is no law if nature that says simple majorities decide all relevant questions. Instead, in every country, the weightier the decision the higher the majority needed to pass it, mostly changes of the actual situation.
So a simple majority decision over that was a mistake.
However, now that they've made the decision, it's a not a British decision anymore; even if the Brits would say, we want to stay, the EU would throw them out (and then say, if you want in again, you can, but without any special rights).
So there will be a brexit. That is not the question. The question is, how Britain and the EU will collaborate after the Brexit and what it will mean for Britain. Everyone is interested in keeping relations cordial, and hard brexit isn't really an option, even if Johnson tried to sell the idea that the EU would so abhor a hard brexit that they would make amends if the Brits threaten with it.
Won't happen, though, and that's why there will be an "orderly" (British) exit.
As soon as they are out, they can vote for becoming part of the EU again.
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Salamandre
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posted September 10, 2019 09:28 AM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
Regardless anyone that tells me that 51% can vote the other 49% off a cliff and calls it democracy is crazier than I am.
Seriously, you just don't realize how lucky you are to live in a nation where politics are polarized 51% to 49%. This is how you advance through history, survive and create powerful societies, because within this narrow margin, there is a free market of opposite ideas which are in continuous clash so arguments constantly need to be sharpened, and precisely because there is a narrow margin, sometimes one side wins, then the other side wins, so in the end every single person in that country gets represented in the running government, at various times. THIS is why democracy is the best system and why the nations applying its principles are acting like magnets worldwide.
The other option is either Stalinism or Theocracy, make your pick and enjoy the 100% perfection.
tSar-Ivor said:
to put the fate of this nation in the hands of the plebs.
See, this is the problem. Everyone not sharing your beliefs is stupid and uneducated. Remember me your age?
tSar-Ivor said:
I just hope to god we have a solid plan
One of the world's most advanced free market economies and one of the world's highest per capita GDPs and a highly skilled labor force, Switzerland. How they do outside EU?
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Neraus
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posted September 10, 2019 09:57 AM |
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Don't you know Sal? They are constantly threatened of being annexed by Germany, and are currently invaded in waves by Italians. The swiss ought to enter the EU for their safety, we others just want to shed blood.
Everyone knows that France is preparing their nuclear arsenal for all out war once the UK leaves, and Germany is going to block the Royal Navy together with the Dutch, the Scandinavians and the Baltics.
And everyone knows we are all planning to annex parts of Albania and Northern Macedonia, as well as taking Constantinople and reducing Turkey to the Caucasus.
Because if you're not in the EU you clearly want to wage war, and we will prevent you from doing so, because we are a just empire.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 10, 2019 10:04 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Seriously, you just don't realize how lucky you are to live in a nation where politics are polarized 51% to 49%. This is how you advance through history, survive and create powerful societies, because within this narrow margin, there is a free market of opposite ideas which are in continuous clash so arguments constantly need to be sharpened, and precisely because there is a narrow margin, sometimes one side wins, then the other side wins, so in the end every single person in that country gets represented in the running government, at various times.
Except, leaving the EU is a deeply structural decision with very long-term consequences. You dont get to enter and exit with each new government at various times, like you suggest. I think it was reckless to put such a decision to 50/50 vote in a one time referandum in the first place. But now that they did, they should face the music and deliver their promise. Otherwise, it would be acting without any principles and the only result would be people feeling tricked and frustrated. You should be able to trust the state to keep their word, not trusting politicians is one thing, bailing out from a contract is another.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted September 10, 2019 10:21 AM |
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The EU whole thing is overrated, mainly because biased medias echoing each other like indian fires.
I am aware that every economical fluctuation for UK, from now, will be considered as a direct Brexit consequence, but I also want to recall you that I live in a country fully EU embedded, soul and body, and recently I saw the the people burning everything around, pensions mutilated, salaries frozen, economy going down, immigration flooding in like never before, crime, unemployement and incivilities reaching record levels, so...
Thanks God we are in EU, what would have happened if France was a sovereign nation, as before!
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Zenofex
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posted September 10, 2019 09:07 PM |
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The EU is not overrated, it has just reached the point where the bureaucracy has lagged behind the real issues which it is supposed to address so much that the directives coming from Brussels sound almost alien to many people in the member states, like the politicians in the EU institutions live in a test-tube surrounded by vacuum. It has numerous structural problems, lacks definite vision for its future and is (too) tightly linked to a military organization which rarely works in its interest nowadays but it's certainly the far better option when the alternative is Europe up until WW2 when every few years somebody was at war with somebody else. You might say that the Union should be re-worked, starting with kicking out the whole coterie of short-sighted stagnant bureaucrats who led it to its current state and I'd agree completely. To dissolve it or something of that sort however won't end well - sooner of later it will turn into continent-scale Yugoslavia.
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Salamandre
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posted September 10, 2019 10:06 PM |
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I mean is overrated in the sense it became the new religion of the century, out of it your soul is lost. It is supposed to solution difficulties that some other countries outside of EU have no problem with. Also, the core struggle for 99,9999% of people in EU - as anywhere else - is balance between taxes and income. Taxes constantly increase and the income decreases, that's the opposite of what everyone expects. This way it can't work.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 10, 2019 10:12 PM |
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Since when are taxes EU jurisdiction? On the contrary, the fact that each country has their own, different taxes and tax rates creates problems.
If that was the point you wanted to make - unified taxes within the whole EU would be a step up -, I think, you possibly might be right.
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Salamandre
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posted September 10, 2019 10:47 PM |
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No, of course not. You can't aim for same taxes or incomes in Romania and in France, an example. But also when taxes increase, it is a direct result of poor economy management, hidden from public by expanding the debt. How you want to create some utopian equality between nations that can't even stop debt increase each on its own. We are surviving by consuming the resources for tomorrow, for next month, for next year.
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Neraus
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posted September 10, 2019 11:11 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Since when are taxes EU jurisdiction? On the contrary, the fact that each country has their own, different taxes and tax rates creates problems.
If that was the point you wanted to make - unified taxes within the whole EU would be a step up -, I think, you possibly might be right.
They indirectly are, the EU fixes the rates of deficit/GDP, if one can't finance their policies by deficit then it's clear they either have to make cuts in the budget or raise the taxes.
Sure it's not the EU itself that's raising your taxes, but here we have had pensions cut and a tax on houses because "Europe is asking it".
Of course that's not the only mechanism with which they can be responsible for raising taxes, but that's the only one I currently have in mind.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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JollyJoker
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posted September 11, 2019 07:35 AM |
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Ok, so one of you is complaining that countries are hiding their inabilities by increasing the deficit, while the other complains that the EU prohibits countries to raise it the way they see fit - and both of you somewhow say the EU is either the reason or not doing anything.
Last time I checked, there was a pretty solid capital flow from rich country to poor country within the EU. Also Greece is still in.
And taxes are not flat anywhere, so income doesn't matter. Prices matter more, and of course different VAT taxes and so on, allowing businesses to operate legally or illegally under profit just by taking advantage of different taxations.
A legal example is, that in most Eastern Europe the taxes for owning trucks are way lower to non-existant, and consequently a lot of German outfits have their trucks which operate in Germany registered there.
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Neraus
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posted September 11, 2019 09:53 AM |
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Edited by Neraus at 10:15, 11 Sep 2019.
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Hey, to each his own, we are a republic founded on deficit, besides, I was just saying there are some mechanisms in the EU that indirectly do influence taxes.
The VAT is a good example actually, recently due to EU laws on the economy the government is supposed to increase it now to get the money to avoid an infraction procedure, which you know, could end up with direct control of the economy by the EU.
Btw, it's funny you mention the cash flow from rich to poor countries, despite our having patches on our asses we still are large contributers ourselves when it comes to EU capital, and you can imagine it's having an effect akin to what the Brexiteers were angry about.
EDIT::
Oh, I failed to mention that we were rewarded with the EU economics commission for ousting Salvini, so yeah Frenchies, prepare for the reckoning on your asses once you start asking for more money! Never going to happen, it's a PD guy, and everyone knows people from PD are crypto-Frenchmen
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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JollyJoker
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posted September 11, 2019 10:23 AM |
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Germany has 30 years experience now with cash flow from rich country to poor - still the ex GDR is not on par with the ex FRG. After 30 years. Takes a lot of time.
With a view on VAT taxes it seems that some people are slowly coming to their senses now, since VAT taxes affect everyone in an equal way, the rich and the poor, which is actually counter-productive (although, Germany still has two different Vat taxes, the regular of 19% and the lower of 7% on "essentials".
Combining 30 countries under one roof is a very complex thing to do, and expecting that process to be instantly 100% successful or painless is folly. While exiting is an option every country can pull, it's also a backwards option that doesn't offer any perspective.
And what can you say to Italy. Let Alto Adige take over, they seem to know what they are doing, although they were annexed, and are for the most fine with the way things are now, which should count for something nowadays where everyone threatens with separation.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted September 14, 2019 09:59 AM |
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Brexit has become sort of a religion in this country much akin to how Isis pursued its own destructive goals with the same zeal and hatred. I honestly don't mind brexit, but hardcore brexiteers that would character assassinate anyone (or flat out lynch) associated with remain is shocking and shameful.
Whole of Brexit ain't about democracy or the will of the people it's literally a bunch of bulls on yokes dragging this country off a cliff. Fine by me, a country can survive far worse and prosper, but not with the kind of morons that drove us into it, goddamn inferiority complexes, I'd trade a dozen of them for a medieval English gong farmer.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Salamandre
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posted September 15, 2019 05:32 PM |
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Oh come on, Isis is not that bad and is overrated. You need a new concept to properly express how you feel about more than half of your compatriots, you know - the haters.
Some mix of Mao, Stalin, Isis, Hitler and Tommy Robinson, all in one. A true punchline to squash those die-hard nationalists. How they dare to put their country first.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted September 15, 2019 05:39 PM |
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Tommy Robinson is a gent, I will not tolerate him being in that line-up.
And why oh why would I change the concept when it serves the purpose perfectly well?
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Blizzardboy
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posted September 16, 2019 05:18 PM |
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Salamandre said:
How they dare to put their country first.
It’s an obsession with perfection by ideological purists. They want Brexit to happen exactly a certain way, because of the Irish backstop or any number of other reasons. If it weren’t for the far right’s tendency to constantly splinter and defect there would have already been a Brexit. It’s getting sabotaged by Brexiteers, not by labor.
The longer it drags on the less weight the referendum is going to have in the eyes of pretty much anybody. It was never going to happen instantly and everybody already knew that, but enacting a democratic referendum 6 months and counting after the exit date is making it more and more silly.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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