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Salamandre
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posted December 14, 2019 03:38 PM |
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artu said:
they can afford to treat you for free.
And so they do in USA, there is no such "heart attack then you die because no insurance". You pay later. Also it's surely not about a stich, but probably a problem he had which required staying at hospital, maybe see a specialist too, people always tend to ornate such facts.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 14, 2019 05:51 PM |
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Yes, everyone knows that the health care situation in the US is so much better than everywhere else, especially in Europe and especially especially in France.
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Salamandre
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posted December 14, 2019 07:31 PM |
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I would say yes, seeing that wealthy people keep going to USA to get treatments they can't get in Europe. When I searched for my sleep problem, the only serious treatments available were in USA, sure very costly but that was. In France I keep visiting amateurs and the state of hospitals here is disastrous. They are on strike almost every month.
Health care is about quality, not some human right where everyone should be healed for free.
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Galaad
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Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 14, 2019 07:50 PM |
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Sure, healthcare in the USA is great granted you can afford it. In France it's not "for free", but seems obvious the money we pay for those services is not redirected in said services. Some of the best doctors are formed in France, but in current times a lot of them leave the country as they can live better elsewhere.
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 14, 2019 08:00 PM |
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USA is more lucrative and has the vampiric ability to take doctors from Europe and Canada, but this doesn't really translate to much of a tangible benefit for the public.
Transportation and energy are based on benefiting everybody. US healthcare is not and it is linked to everything from the high rate of bankruptcies to the high rate of suicide. People get sick and suddenly their finances are ruined.
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Salamandre
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posted December 14, 2019 08:07 PM |
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Being taxed reasonably is not a vampiric ability. People leave Europe for USA because taxes are lower thus opportunities higher.
God bless America , from Will Smith
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 14, 2019 08:17 PM |
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I don't honestly know about the state of healthcare in France but in the UK there is universal coverage and there are private entities simultaneously and it seems to work pretty well. The UK is a good comparison country because they also have pretty crappy diets and worse alcohol consumption so the health expenditures ought to range in the same ballpark.
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artu
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posted December 14, 2019 08:21 PM |
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Then why does every American I know complain about their healtcare system, Sal? Why was it one of the “big sells” for Obama during his election campaign, saying he’ll fix it? I mean, I even remember YOU, lecturing Mvass about how all the rest of the civilized world had a reasonable balance when it comes to healthcare, except the U.S. (Mvass was advocating for an absolute free market as usual), linking a map to point out how misguided Americans were. What changed?
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JollyJoker
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posted December 14, 2019 08:35 PM |
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I'm really used to reading a lot of nonsense here, but it seems there is no limit for it.
If there IS a country that can boast health tourism it's Cuba - strangely enough the same people who would go out of their way to defend the US system go out of their way to point out how cynical it is for them to basically have two medical systems, one for their own pop and one for paying tourists.
Note further, that a "system" in which everyone simply pays for themselves, when they need something, is no system. It's just everyone for themselves. Is that an ideal situation? If you say yes, you'll probably be okay with organs and hospital beds being auctioned to the highest bidder.
That is not what health INSURANCE is about. The idea is based on the realization that everyone may suffer from bad luck in the health department and may need treatment they don't have the means to pay for. That is in no way different from the general and fundamental insurance principle. Everyone pays a premium, so the unlucky ones can be treated. Think about dialysis. It costs between 40 and 60 thousand € a year. Most people cannot pay that.
Correct is to have a basic insurance for everyone that covers everything more or less above a certain threshold. Of course, everyone is still free to make additional provisions depending on their monetary ability.
And that you don't find top talents in public health care - really? Is it such a new idea that top talents go where the money is? (which is, where people pay top dollar.)
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 14, 2019 09:34 PM |
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The thread has expired anyway. Brexit is basically a done deal at this point. Tories are king of the mountain.
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Salamandre
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posted December 14, 2019 09:38 PM |
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I fail to see where is the nonsense you point to. The only nonsense I read is you claiming France universal healthcare is great. That's 10 billions debt - and going down each year - for maintaining this coverage. If only constant perfusion can maintain you alive, better make sure the perfusion liquid is infinite.
Which is far from being the case with money.
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 14, 2019 09:45 PM |
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Okay but there are countries that have universal healthcare without assigning it to debt. There's an obvious a difference between having coverage with or without an actual plan.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 14, 2019 10:12 PM |
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Salamandre said:
The only nonsense I read is you claiming France universal healthcare is great.
As usual you turn things around - YOU were the one who claimed the US way to provide healtcare was so much better than the French way, and I corrected that saying that leaving everything to the individual isn't a system at all.
I didn't say that France's system is "great" - but France HAS a system, a system that allows poor people to get medical help without having to pay for it the rest of their lives. And it has a system that doesn't forbid richer people to pay EXTRA for EXTRA service. Lastly, I pointed out that in a capitalist system you cannot expect top talent to work for low wages, and that is something you know quite well: top musicians won't play in province theaters, except for publicity reasons. That's the way this world works.
Health is a difficult issue. People who have rare diseases tend to spend tons of money looking for help and not getting them, but everyone is of course taking their money, when they privately pay.
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Galaad
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Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 14, 2019 10:19 PM |
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As if France's financial problems were healthcare... Yes it costs, but not nearly as close as fiscal fraud or being part of EU does. Take the money that doesn't serve the country's economy instead of aggravating healthcare situation.
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AnkVaati
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posted December 15, 2019 12:44 AM |
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Not a big fan of the EU but I still had hopes for Corbyn because of his economic policies. Shouldn't have asked for a second referendum. -.- I get that it might have seemed like a smart thing to do, tactically speaking. Just that the most pro-EU people seemed to be the same folks labelling him "unelectable" for challenging the West's neoliberal dogma. 
Happy for those Celtic nationalists doing well though.   #FreeWales I mean, dismantling the EU and dismantling the UK aren't necessarily mutually exclusive concepts, lol...
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AnkVaati
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posted December 15, 2019 12:58 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Being taxed reasonably is not a vampiric ability. People leave Europe for USA because taxes are lower thus opportunities higher.
God bless America , from Will Smith
I dunno if its some kind of petty bourgeoisie idealism (which is absolute rampant on the so called left too) that makes people believe that there are actual huge ideological differences between so called liberal democracies of the West and the politicians therein. Like if they didn't all kinda have the same interests in the system that keeps them well off... 
Sweden's tax system, for instance, has the same problem as the US and many other countries: it looks "progressive" but it's actually regressive, since those really rich folks don't actually pay income tax at all - and taxes on capital (etc.) are much lower (or even non-existent in some cases).
In regards to the States, though: I think I know of a line in the budgetthat could be cut deeply for the benefit of all mankind and provide all the money needed for health care or whatever. 
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 15, 2019 05:18 AM |
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Income tax doesn't matter much for the extremely wealthy because they can shift their money around without much hassle. Their money is primarily what makes money, so you have to tax the wealth, but taxing wealth vs taxing income is difficult for a variety of reasons.
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Salamandre
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posted December 15, 2019 08:54 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
but France HAS a system, a system that allows poor people to get medical help without having to pay for it the rest of their lives.
Gotta love how simple this sounds to you. It doesn't allow poor people to get medical help from thin air, it taxes a bunch from the others so "poor" people can get a cure. Joe has to pay way more because John needs it, while we don't ask John for anything in return - of any nature, and that's a problem. Now maybe Joe could accommodate with this forever burden, but when you tell him he also pollutes with his car, so he should be penalized with a anti-carbon tax, also when he notices billions from taxes are used to cure illegal aliens (2 billions/year in France for example, add to this the US democrates similar attitude), maybe Joe has enough?
Note that I wouldn't mind a redistributive system, it IS necessary for assuring the generations flow, but not if there is not a culture of responsibility worked behind. Too much abuse, being poor is not a fate but an individual failure, for the most.
JollyJoker said:
And it has a system that doesn't forbid richer people to pay EXTRA for EXTRA service.
Another amazing example of leftism paradox: equality for all, except for the best, the "rich".
How it sounds to you that capable individuals, those who work the harder, who pay and contribute the most to the economy, by percentage talking, should be additionally penalized, just because what? What could be the ethical "correct" pretext you could come with, allowing inventing laws and penalties ONLY for a category of people, just because they made it better than others? This is what I call nonsense, because indeed it makes no sense.
Also, and the most important, we all know that universal healthcare coverage simply can't work within open borders, it is doomed to fail as long as resources are finite, and they are. If you have open borders, then privatization and free market should be put in place, with every individual paying his insurance.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 15, 2019 09:34 AM |
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Look, if you don't like it in France, go elsewhere - with the "open borders" you claim it shouldn't be a problem. Try Britain. No EU anymore, next year, no separate health insurance tax. Or the US. Low income tax, the land of the free, from dishwasher to millionaire, each their own, blahblahblah.
If you want to discuss health care open a separate thread.
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 19, 2019 01:06 PM |
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Quote:
And I don't think you have a grasp on economy. You know the US have a national collecticve debt of 21.000.000.000.000 $, right? Doesn't seem to matter, really - a lot wa sspent for warring. Wouldn't make a difference, if the lot would be spent for health care. Effect? Same. More jobs.
How are the effects even close to the same?
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This thread is pages long: 
