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| Thread: Coronavirus Discussion Thread |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 · «PREV |
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Salamandre
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posted January 05, 2021 07:58 PM |
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Youngsters and people in optimal shape should get the vaccine asap, as they are the ones the most imprudent and carry the virus around without any consequences for themselves.
Of course they don't want and don't care about getting the vaccine, but think bigger. Degrading economy means less to none opportunities for them later, when will matter.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 05, 2021 08:40 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Youngsters and people in optimal shape should get the vaccine asap, as they are the ones the most imprudent and carry the virus around without any consequences for themselves.
Of course they don't want and don't care about getting the vaccine, but think bigger. Degrading economy means less to none opportunities for them later, when will matter.
What kind of logic is that? For one thing, a) it's not even clear whether vaccinated people can infect others. For another, why would people be vaccinated that have a low risk, when a)?
You want protection? Get vaccinated. You don't want that? Isolate yourself.
For the same reason it makes no sense to demand that only vaccinated people can do things like enter restaurants or something. When you are vaccinated - why would you have a problem with non-vaccinated people entering a restaurant? THEY are at risk, not you...
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Salamandre
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posted January 05, 2021 09:12 PM |
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Most people in good health/or young don't care about getting the virus (1% death rate, varying up and down with age) and don't care neither, after endless lockdowns and basic freedom privations, about spreading it.
All I say is those people should be vaccinated at first, because a) they are at less risk concerning the vaccine secondary effects, then b) they keep the virus circulating, which explains why the infection rate remains high.
People with health problems are already isolating themselves, taking care and all that. But that is only a tiny percentage.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 05, 2021 09:51 PM |
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You'd think you were immune against logic.
Logical is to vaccinate the people with the highest risk to die should they become infected.
Repeat: It's not clear whether vaccinated people can still infect others or not. So vaccinating people with a low risk to suffer from the disease or even die, without knowing whether they'd at least not infect others would be a waste of vaccines.
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Salamandre
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posted January 05, 2021 10:54 PM |
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I never said people at high risk should not be vaccinated, of course they should. But the main goal is to get rid totally of the virus, and for this you have to understand who is spreading and keeping it alive, then focus on that category. To end all, not only save some lives. This is predominantly important also because most people at risk refuse, for now, to be vaccinated.
Also my first comment was directed to Drakon, suggesting him to think twice before refusing the vaccine, as he is more concerned, in the long run, than he thinks now. Not some general directive on how vaccination should be handled. So stop your usual contradicting crap which is of no interest to me.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 05, 2021 11:05 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Repeat: It's not clear whether vaccinated people can still infect others or not. So vaccinating people with a low risk to suffer from the disease or even die, without knowing whether they'd at least not infect others would be a waste of vaccines.
Do you understand that?
Second. Salamandre said:
But the main goal is to get rid totally of the virus, and for this you have to understand who is spreading and keeping it alive, then focus on that category. To end all, not only save some lives.
Said who?
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Salamandre
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posted January 06, 2021 01:14 AM |
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Only 40-50% of elder people will agree to get vaccinated, look at polls world wide. Elder people are more likely to have a much weaker response to the vaccine because of their declining immunosenescence. That's why in all medical history, most of the scientific community’s experience with vaccine development for any disease has been focused on vaccinating the relatively young. The fact that elderly people do not respond well to immunizations has largely been ignored in most discussions of Covid vaccines, despite this being the group in greatest need. What we need is mass immunity so everyone will be safe and able to get back to a normal life.
To reach mass immunity and eradicate the virus you need 75-80% of people vaccinated. So every healthy/young individual refusing the vaccine should understand that and think twice.
It was my only point before you started one of the sterile polemics you are such expert at. Stop.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted January 06, 2021 03:29 AM |
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Sal, I would agree to take the shot now if it would mean returning to a normal life. But right now they even admit that even with this vaccine you will still have to wear masks and keep distance and places are still closed. So again, what is the use of getting the shot if nothing changes?
Not to mention that I doubt a real vaccine can be developed in such a short time, but that's another of the many fishy things about this pandemic.
My only wish is for the governments to let citizens make their own decisions and not treat them like kindergarten kids by imposing restrictions and spreading fear. If some want to live in a plastic bubble because they're afraid of the virus (which has quite the low mortality rate as you said yourself), fine, but don't force everyone else to do the same.
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 06, 2021 05:58 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 05:59, 06 Jan 2021.
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People need to understand that mass vaccination is not only about immediate protection of people who receive the vaccine. It is also about protecting society at large via herd immunity and also reducing the frequency of viral mutation to forms that the vaccine may be ineffective against. In that sense, it may be preferable to vaccinate first the people who are more likely to transmit the virus than those likely to succumb to it.
What makes scientific sense and what seems morally or emotionally right on the surface aren't always in perfect alignment, however. This is why policy should be set by public health experts, vaccine experts, and epidemiologists. You also need a strong communication team to explain why certain decisions are being made. And you need a populace who trusts the government and scientists.
But, particularly in this environment, that may not be likely to happen.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
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posted January 06, 2021 09:18 AM |
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Drakon, yes, return to normal life won't happen in the second you personally get vaccinated but when a large chunk of population is vaccinated. That requires everyone to act responsible. There is no other solution, do you have one in mind except wait and see?
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JollyJoker
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posted January 06, 2021 09:25 AM |
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At this stage there are a lot of things unknown.
Herd immunity, the experts say, needs at least two thirds of the population at immunity. Of the WORLD population. So there will be something like 11 billion doses of vaccine needed - as a first wave.
Because what we don't know (as with whether the vaccinated will be unable to still infect others), is, HOW LONG the actual immunity will last.
This might have something to do with the mutation problem. The vaccines of Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna will PROBABLY be able to handle this, due to their "mechanism" of immunisation. On the other hand, the method is new and untried. They need temperatures of -70 and -30 degrees celsius, respectively, to store and they are expensive. They simply won't happen in India and so on. (The BioNTech dose costs 12 €, for example.) The Russian and Chinese vaccines are cheap and old-school, so mutations will be an issue with them.
That leaves at present the AstraZeneca vaccine which is a vector-vaccine (a tried mechanism, that also attacks the spike protein of the virus), but it is cheap and can be stored in normal refrigerators, so every doctor/clinic has the equipment to use it.
So the AstraZeneca vaccine is the biggest hope - however, they are still somewhat in the test phase, since the results are only valid for under-55-years old. They also found out, that the results are best, when two weaker doses are used (so this is all in a state of trial, yet).
Global herd immunity will take many years to come by.
I might add here, that there is still a lot unknown. Young children, for example, are a lot less likely to infect others, it seems, even if they are infected (their immune system seems to work differently).
A last word on herd immunity. If a virus or germ has no preferred victims (everyone is equally likely to die from it), this is clearly something needed. If there are preferred victims, though, herd immunity isn't necessarily something even needed.
Think about what some countries initially thought: we'll get herd immunity, if we do nothing - but then too many got sick too soon and then too many died.
Also, the information might be interesting, that AstraZeneca is in the last stages of testing a covid-cure drug (based on antibodies).
This might deliver a more viable strategy than global herd immunity: vaccinate the groups with high risk potential and treat the rest, if necessary.
EDIT: And before I forget it, we have a couple more problems. The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine can't be used on people taking anti-coagulants and it's also a risk on cancer patients. Also, the EU has a "common-buy" strategy and Macron has successfully demanded to reserve some of the spoils for the vaccine Sanofi is supposed to develop (which will take a year or two) - so the EU won't have enough vaccine for herd immunity anyway, not for some time, at least.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 07, 2021 12:15 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Drakon, yes, return to normal life won't happen in the second you personally get vaccinated but when a large chunk of population is vaccinated. That requires everyone to act responsible. There is no other solution, do you have one in mind except wait and see?
Act responsible... yeah, the same old story for almost a full year now. So can you really blame me and others for being tired of all the restrictions and propaganda by now?
I told you what I would like to see happen in my previous post, but it seems very unlikely. I guess we'll have to deal with more months of sanitary dictatorship where we have to act responsible or we get sanctioned with more restrictions and heavy fines. Yay.
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Salamandre
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posted January 07, 2021 12:31 PM |
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Drakon, I am not blaming you, just telling how I see the situation and the possible issues. Vaccine is one for me, which is yours, you haven't tell.
Bickering about how awful is life right now won't help, guess what, we are all in same difficult situation, it isn't easier for me than for you. My both parents contracted Covid at 70+ years old, after basically living in a prison for 8 months and practicing same ritual over and over: going shopping for basic needs, 2 masks one over the other, once a week, try to keep away from agitated and imprudent youngsters fooling around, repeat next week. Hopefully they managed to go through, but for how long.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 07, 2021 12:40 PM |
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But you are saying the vaccine is only useful if 80% take it. Anyway, I've respected all the measures even if I didn't like to, so I'll probably get vaccinated too at some point.
I repeat, is it too much stop treating people like kindergarten kids and stop spreading fear non-stop about a virus that is so dangerous that in most cases you don't even know you have it until you take a test that reveals you're asymptomatic? The media are acting as if this virus is the cause of death for 99.9% of deaths and as if people never die of other causes. Is that okay?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 07, 2021 12:42 PM |
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I wait for traditional vaccine, which should come by the end of the year. I am of course annoyed by the restrictions like everyone else, but I prefer doing it that way. There is literally no long-term data with current vaccines and already too many problems with it. Things like facial paralysis are much more annoying than wearing a mask and keeping distance.
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Neraus
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posted January 07, 2021 12:59 PM |
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Indeed, the most valid objection is the lack of long-term data, that said, as someone in the field but not involved in experimentation (and still completing the degree), I can say that it's theoretically safe and based on a solid theory.
However, the biggest problem in my opinion is the vector, it's strange to me that no anaphylactic shocks were reported during the trials, but the moment it started to roll out there have been cases of shock in patients predisposed to allergic reactions.
Which wouldn't have been a surprise, since animal trials of this lipid vector reported severe inflammation of tissues in them.
It's probably gonna be a small cluster that has severe adverse effects, and if they keep on administering the vaccine in hospitals, the risks may be kept low, but I keep asking myself why weren't there more doubts about it during trials, for comparison, AstraZeneca halted their trials because of the possibility of the vaccine killing people with neurological disorders, and resumed only when it was clear that it was an unrelated death.
And then I also hear that they're administering the vaccine to pregnant women, and are considering extending it to children eventually, both of which are clusters of population that require specific kinds of studies that as I know of were not carried out, which is a special kind of irresponsible since even drugs that seem to be harmless for adults have been shown to have theratogenic reactions on the fetus.
Anyway, I guess you don't need me to tell you that the fact it's mRNA based doesn't mean it's going to alter your DNA.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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CountBezuhoff
Supreme Hero
Nihil sub sole novum
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posted February 11, 2021 07:16 PM |
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The virus is still snowing around, what a pain.
The Count
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted February 11, 2021 07:24 PM |
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CountBezuhoff said:
The virus is still snowing around, what a pain.
The Count
Yeah, it seems they haven't made enough money off of it yet.
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