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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 01:18 PM |
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Salamandre, that is nonsense.
Putin's Russia is at war with the Ukraine. That's the bottom line. Do you think it was different from France being at war with the Switzerland because, well, part of Switzerland speaks French and their banks hold drug-cartel money. Or Romania warring the Republic of Moldau since it's been part of Greater Romania after WW I?
Nope, it's not. It's a war of conquest to incorporate ex USSR territory into Russia, and of course the US use that blunder to try and weaken Russia. And make no mistake, without the threat of nuclear war, the Western World would support the Ukraine a lot more, because, frankly, Russia is big enough already and de facto a dictatorship, held at gunpoint with controlled media and absolutely NO progress for the Russian people in the last decades.
In short, current Russia is a disgrace, and that's the fault of Putin and his cronies. How is it even possible that there are "oligarchs" after a supposedly "socialist" country went capitalist. Hasn't everything been owned by everyone? With regard to Siberian resources, Russia is like a 3rd-world country: a small group of people is plundering the national resources, selling them off to the world to fill their own pockets.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 01:42 PM |
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Sigh...
Fact 1.
Navalny is popular.
It doesn't matter what your students say, it doesn't even matter whether he is guilty or not in this case. HE IS POPULAR. That's a fact. His videos are watched millions of times. It doesn't matter if you watched it or me, it's still millions! Most of these watches in Russia, obviously.
Fact 2.
Navalny criticizes Putin.
Obvious.
Fact 3.
Russian opposition leaders and activists die in strange conditions.
They lived, then they died, not when they are old. You know that's strange. Nemtsov, Magnitsky, Kuashev, Magomedragimov... You could also mention Skripal if you want, though he survived.
Fact 4.
Navalny was poisoned by Novichok
Confirmed by Bundeswehr Institute of Pharmacology and Toxicology. Also confirmed by independent toxicological laboratories in France and Sweden.
Fact 5.
Novichok was developed in Soviet Union and Russia
Doesn't need confirmation. This also proves that Russian special services could theoretically use it.
Fact 6.
Investigations by independent journalists show links of Navalny's poisoning to FSB
I've provided plenty of links to Bellingcat and their reputation is good. They are like providing standard for open-source investigations. Some of their investigations for example were about uncovering misdoings by Ukrainian government and so I treat them as neutral as journalists should be.
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You know, when something looks like crap, smells like craps and feels like crap, then maybe it's a crap, not a conspiracy of all Western governments, together with laboratories and together with journalists against the holy great country of Russia.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted May 03, 2022 01:52 PM |
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JJ, the amount of disinformation you give there is astonishing.
JollyJoker said:
absolutely NO progress for the Russian people in the last decades.
During Putin's presidency, the prosperity of the population improved at such a fast rate never seen before. The average income of the Russian family almost doubled between 2000 and 2006.
I won't insist on the nonsense of your Moldova/Switzerland comparison. You skip all the core parameters, as the common history and cultural ties between Ukraine and Russia, as well as NATO's role in the stirring the conflict, which is paramount.
@Ihor
I still see no facts
See, putting comment in bold doesn't mean its will become more relevant than before.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 03, 2022 01:55 PM |
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Remember Putin gave a permission his wife, and they can go to German hospital. But in there found poision stuff. Russia wanted to do research. Ok he went to Russia back, but didn't examine, he went to prison  When he mocked.. Even if, he got only the arrest.. It after attempted murder.. Now's a very dangerous criminal.. 
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 01:55 PM |
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It's like talking to a 3-year old, honestly.
A fact is a thing that is known or proved to be true.
Which of those 6 facts are not facts?
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Salamandre
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posted May 03, 2022 02:02 PM |
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Well, for example views on Youtube reflecting reality. No, they don't necessarily. If they were, the president of France would be Zemmour right now.
And I already saw journalists pretend they have definitive proofs on Russian implication on this or that. Didn't go well.
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ihor
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posted May 03, 2022 02:09 PM |
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As usual, when I ask clear questions, you start talking about irrelevant things like Zemmour or some irrelevant journalists. It was Trump and French elections few hours back. That is NOT what we discuss. We're also not talking about what is in Navalny's YouTube videos.
If you don't like bold, I'll try to make it more convenient for you:
1. Navalny is popular.
2. Navalny criticizes Putin.
3. Russian opposition leaders and activists die in strange conditions.
4. Navalny was poisoned by Novichok
5. Novichok was developed in Soviet Union and Russia
6. Investigations by independent journalists show links of Navalny's poisoning to FSB
So if you had concerns about #6 from this list, do you agree that #1-#5 are all facts?
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Salamandre
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posted May 03, 2022 02:19 PM |
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Sure, if you can prove no other country can have access to Novichok.
Is like saying bombs dropped on Yemen population are made in US - which they are, so for sure is Biden who kills them.
You also skip the high possibility that Navalny is indeed a financial crook, for which the justice condemned him, so some of the mafias so common in Russia wanted him out of competition.
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ihor
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posted May 03, 2022 02:19 PM |
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No, obviously I cannot prove that no other countries have access to Novichok.
But does that mean that your version is that Navalny was poisoned by Novichok by some other country? And you think that sums up?
Why would another country do that? Why Navalny himself doesn't consider this option? Are there any traces or evidence left to support this version?
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Salamandre
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posted May 03, 2022 02:23 PM |
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Yes, I would like to see those questions raised then eliminated one by one if evidence. That is called investigation, not the day after everyone pointing to Putin only because the poison is - surprise, russian made.
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Gandalf196
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posted May 03, 2022 02:29 PM |
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ihor
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 02:32 PM |
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There are investigations and evidence, plenty. It's so that you prefer to ignore those yet.
But going back to your version. Do you not think that if there was poisoning by another country or mafia, then Russian law enforcement services would do their best at least give some evidence to support that? But AFAIK there's none. That makes this version highly improbable. As you would say - not summing up.
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Salamandre
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posted May 03, 2022 02:40 PM |
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Maybe they just act normally, waiting that others come with solid evidence.
There are a three realities I believe in:
1) Putin doesn't care about what world thinks
2) Putin doesn't care about sanctions
3) Putin could have eliminated Navalny if he really wanted to, because 1) and 2).
That's it.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 02:46 PM |
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Interesting, I disagree on 1) and 2). Well 3) would be indeed true if 1) and 2), but why do you believe that Putin doesn't care about sanctions?
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Salamandre
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posted May 03, 2022 02:57 PM |
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Because Russia has all raw materials. And when you have this advantage - unlike many others, the sanctions will never turn radical, but mostly reach for a compromise. Energy is life.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 02:59 PM |
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Ohhh these are the world famous facts. LOL.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 03, 2022 03:45 PM |
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Look, Salamandre, what REALLY pisses me off is this idea, that Russia would be somehow "entitled" to anything.
No, they are not. Ukraine isn't some part of Russia - not more than Gdanks is some part of Germany. Or Kaliningrad, for that matter.
For all relevant purposes Ukraine is a state like, say, Poland, and the only problem it has is that it's not part of NATO. Which by the way Russia wasn't entitled to somehow prevent that.
Because, frankly, the idea that NATO would actually attack Russia is utterly preposterous, whether Ukraine, Finland or Sweden jopin NATO or not. Even if there wasn't thousands of nuclear weapons guaranteeing Russian safety and even if NATO had the conventional weapons - who in their right mind would want to advance into Russia? For what?
This is all a big pile of bullsnow. And I didn't give you any desinformation. While Russian economy thrived, not only was wealth distributed unevenly:
Quote:
the 110 wealthiest individuals were found in a report by Credit Suisse to own 35% of all financial assets held by Russian households. Russia also has the second-largest volume of illicit money outflows, having lost over $880 billion between 2002 and 2011 in this way. Since 2008 Forbes has repeatedly named Moscow the "billionaire capital of the world".
In addition, the economy is too dependent on resource exports. They don't have a high-tech sector, and even before the Crimea annexation, Russian economy was stagnating.
But the real thing is, that a country with Russias natural resources and scientific and industrial potential should be doing WAY, WAY, WAY better, and people should be doing better. It's somewhat like an oil-producing country - yes, there is wealth, yes, there is money, but it's concentrated in just a few hands, the government is authoritarian and the people could do a lot better.
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Salamandre
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posted May 03, 2022 04:20 PM |
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There is no miracle, going from decades of communism to standard democracy and thriving economy is not one step process. You have to give context when claiming Russia should do better, better than who? Romania, Hungary, North Korea, China? They do, in many aspects. Also Russia has basically no debt, if let's say France had to pay its debt tomorrow, which is 50k euros/person, I bet the that would crate some upside down in world ranking based on wealth, right?
You just keep doing circles. First you claim Putin did no good, then start cherry picking on inequality, like it wasn't the same in all industrialized countries. Russia is 8th in most billionaires world ranking, topped by far by China, US, India, Germany and France, when Forbes say Moscow is the "billionaire capital of the world" that's irrelevant, so what's your point?
I never said Russia is entitled to anything. No more than USA threatening of invasion the Solomon islands in case China would have the bad idea of installing some military base on. Hypocrites.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 04:50 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 16:51, 03 May 2022.
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Well, I don't like Navalny personally and don't think he would be a leader Russia felt in love with. But I cannot deny that fact that he still is a leader and has balls that many Russians don't. It's beyond even bold to oppose Putin. Still I'm sure he would not acquire enough votes to be the next president even if there were most fair elections ever.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted May 03, 2022 04:55 PM |
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Of course you say that Russia is entitled to something. Because you make excuses for what isn't a threat to do something but a fait accompli: NATO and USA does this, language that. Nonsense. That's why I said, with the same line of arguing France could annex the French-speaking parts of Switzerland and then declare war on Switzerland when they were not happy about it.
There is nothing NATO or the West - or in fact anyone - can do to threaten Russia militarily, short of nuking the whole country to oblivion and we all know what that would result in. Russia is just flexing their muscles - in fact, Putin is - and takes what it wants by brute force.
There isn't really more to it, and everything more that is put into it is just a concession to the Russian ability to destroy the whole world.
If you read my post, there was a quote that said 110 persons in Russia own 35% of all financial assets held by all Russian households.
110. That's not much. Usually you see numbers like the richest 1% or even 10%, but the richest 1% would be 1.44 million people, not 110. Now, the thing is, that they invest their money elsewhere. They earn it with the Russian resources and buy stuff elsewhere, be it shares or land/houses or soccer clubs. Because there isn't much to invest in in Russia and THEY don't start businesses that would help the country. They are what Bolivia would be if, if 10 Bolivians would own the companies that mine lithium and sell it to western corps and countries.
In other words, Putin and his cronies plunder Russia like a foreign colonial power.
Without them, with a responsible government, with higher taxes on resource export profits and so on, and investing them into infrastructure, technology and industry Russia would be better off in the same way, as the oil-producing countries would be better off, if the oil profits wouldn't end in the pockets of a chosen few "owners" or the resource-rich ex-colonies with their corrupt dictatorship-like governments.
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