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GrunanCross
Famous Hero
King of the Underdark
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posted May 19, 2003 09:50 AM |
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......LOL Sorry for the stunt I'm....well you wanna try guessing???? I'll make a thread about it..lol
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Uukrul
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 22, 2003 01:49 PM |
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Hi,
I'm pretty new here (actually it's my first note here  ), but i couldnt resist to write a reply to this topic 
OK, first of all, on such topics the first line of post must declare what difficulty a player refers to, imho Especially, b4 writing something like "week 1: build level 1-7 with citadel or castle" - well it's ok playing on easy/normal/hard , acceptable on expert, but on impossible?  So in my note i always will refer to expert difficulty (160%).
Second - Celfious wrote the best note here. He didnt write difficulty setting, but imho it was expert
Learn to feel out the map . Very very wise words. I almost always play random and usually my 1st week consists of city hall (=5 days) +couple unit build or 1 unit build+citadel (unit builds depend from town type). And no fighting in 1st week 2nd week - castle,capitol +other unit builds +some unit upgrades, if needed (w/o 7lvl (or 6lvl - with Stronghold )). That i call ideal start:
1) Your economy (at least cash ) wont rely on what scouts find (i.e. luck)
2) Your main army wont be running (or chained) from one corner of your explored area to another just to get those &*#^*@#^! guarded 2-3k cash in order to build that &#^%*#@^* [insert your choice here], thus you can concentrate on other goals - fighting to get +2 att/def from arena or 2lvl spell from shrine and etc.
3) In case of enemy approaching (2nd week) - well, you didn't build all 6 dwellings as he/she, but you can buy out all your creatures (sometimes quantity is better than quality ) from town + addtitional 1-2 heroes and sit relaxed behind the castle walls.
4) And afterall you can choose your main hero not from 4 heroes (1 starting, 1 your town type+2 visible in tavern), but from 7 - coz you'll do serious (or not) fighting only from 2nd week.
But that's the ideal (for me) start. As i play randoms atm, sometimes you need to fight (basic mines or futher exploring blocked) - well, then unit builds are needed, but usually there are some guarded (or not) cash to compensate units builds and shopping to get builds to primary plan
But getting to the topic - i build town hall on 1st day 95% of times Why?
1) I dont decide what type (res rich/poor) map is after 2 steps from my town.
2) Firstly i want to know what creatures i'll fight and if it's worth to fight (getting the only one guarded gold pile around and thus spending 2-4k on army, while other resources lay on the ground unguarded - it's not an option, at least for me )
3) (rare) - sometimes there is a learning stone and it's useful to run with your main hero to get free +1lvl b4 fights (so it's 1 day delay and no need for armies).
Oh, btw
Quote:
Town Hall is 2500 for 1000 per day. So it would take you 3 days to get your money back.
This isnt correct. The real income increase after town hall is 500gc So you need 5 days to get your money back. The same thing is with city hall and capitol. So if you build capitol on, say, 9th day, it'll start to make profit at the begining of the 3rd week.
Quote:
3 days where you haven't had the creature stack that you could have bought instead of the town hall. 3 days where you could have had the next creature stack after that. And 3 days where those creatures could have got you much more money than you are getting now. Without creatures, it is very hard for you to get anywhere, particularly early on.
Not absolutely correct. You may need creatures on 1st week, thats true, but do you need, say, 4-6lvl creatures to smack group of imps (or other 1st lvl creat.)? You must find the golden middle - have some pretty cool army w/o emptying your purse And here pops in so called "skill" (or how good you play HoMM) - one need 3-5 naggas (and other units as well) to clear horde of walking undeads, other - just 70-100 mg +4 gargoyles
Usually, my fighting force for first 2 weeks looks like this:
Castle - pikemen+marksmen;
Rampart - centaurs+grand elves;
Tower - mg+gargoyles;
Inferno - imps+gogs+efreets (must build efreet on 1st week - sucks  )
Necropolis - skeletons+walking dead (or only vampyre lords 2nd week - if i manage to get enough crystals&gems)
Dungeon - trogs,beholders, mebbe some hags (i dont buy them unless upgraded) + harpy hags(2nd week)
Stronghold - goblins, wolfriders, rocks (must build rocks on 1st week)
Fortress - gnolls, lizardmen, wyverns (must build wyverns on 1st week).
2-3 types of creatures - not many cash to spend and such army can clear easily 1-3lvl mobs (or even 4lvl) with some exceptions
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zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2003 09:02 PM |
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Umm, Uukrul, u can expect getting flamed as well as Grunnan, i think... But i as a peacful elephant wouldn't argue.
Only one think. May i ask u - have u ever played online random game?
I'm asking this because i'm not a true veteran player and not so long ago i did the same things as u on first two weeks. However now i'm completly on Kuma's&co side about this issue
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted May 22, 2003 09:46 PM |
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U say u wont need the army powers first week....well I say u do, but that is arguable.....whats not is the fact that u need AS MUCH CREATURES AS POSSIBLE for end game, and u need them dwellings to get them.....letting the creatures dwell in your town wont hurt....
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Tagged officially as Noobegian two years ago. This typographic material is strictly copyrighted. All situations containing abuse will be brought to court.
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grendal
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2003 10:46 PM |
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Zilonite has warned u, cause from time to time people have posted in various places here there strategy similar to yours and then got flammed real good. I suggest instead of coming on her and telling vets the best way to play the game, u read the thread by frank called homm3 tactics, entirely. (it will help u understand lots). Try rampart castle and do this build sequence.
day 1..elves
day 2..grand elves
day 3..pegasus
day 4..dendroids
day 5..unicorns
day 6..citadel
day 7..castle
Buy all centaurs and grand elves day 2. Buy as many heroes as u can afford and do go out and collect all those little amounts of gold u are referring to. All crypts can be taken wk one. Some treasuries as well, just not the ones with 150 dwarves in them (imho).
In the majority of random games i have played this will generate enough money to continue building and buy all 6 unicorns on day 8. With these u can take out most stacks of lvl 1-3 shooters without losing any unicorns. By end of wk 2 it is fairly easy to buy and have in the game 3 green dragons on day 1 of wk 3.
Of course the template u are playing will have an impact on this strategy, so it would be best to familiarize yourself with the types of templates that are played. Some adjustments may be necessary, but it is vital to get those unicorns in wk 1.
I was like u when i first started and couldnt understand why i would always get masacred in online games. Then some veteran,(i am no vet btw),told me about franks thread, and with some practise games, all became much clearer to me.
As Zilonite stated, u may not need the creatures in wk 1 or 2 but when it comes time to meet the oppenent and u didnt build these dwellings wk 1, the battle is lost already.
My advice to u is to read and practise what these vets have posted. They have really dissected the details of this game and really understand it.
This is just how i play the rampart castle (sometimes u can even get the dragons in wk 1). The building sequence is different for other castles, but the basic premise is the same. Get those 6th and 7th level creatures built as soon as possible.
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Life is full of frustrations, heroes should help release it!
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 23, 2003 03:36 AM |
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um
Was going to post something, but it would have just been an almost direct copy of Grendals post
Nicely said.
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Myctteakyshd
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 23, 2003 05:50 AM |
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To keep it simple:
Most online games are over by week 3-4, and if you miss out on building creatures one of those weeks...well do the math yourself.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted May 23, 2003 08:56 AM |
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Well heres what I do usually when I play lets say an XL Under Ring temp.
week 1
Day 1) build town hall
2) 2nd lv dwelling
3)market place
4)Blacksmith
5)Mageguild
6)city hall
7 3rd lv dwelling or 4th depending if my 2nd lv dwelling is prebuilt.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Uukrul
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 23, 2003 11:25 AM |
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Quote:
Only one think. May i ask u - have u ever played online random game?
Yes. Usual settings are Medium map/expert diff./strong monsters/no water/random castles/1 on 1. Even in hotseat, we never look at each others turns
Quote:
I'm asking this because i'm not a true veteran player and not so long ago i did the same things as u on first two weeks. However now i'm completly on Kuma's&co side about this issue
Why? Because you lost 1-2 battles to some1 using different builds tactics? That doesnt prove anything, afterall you admited by yourself - you arent veteran player
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Quote:
U say u wont need the army powers first week....well I say u do, but that is arguable.....
Well, that'd be ideal case, but in random games anything could happen. Sometimes you need army first week
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Quote:
Try rampart castle and do this build sequence.
day 1..elves
day 2..grand elves
day 3..pegasus
day 4..dendroids
day 5..unicorns
day 6..citadel
day 7..castle
Buy all centaurs and grand elves day 2. Buy as many heroes as u can afford and do go out and collect all those little amounts of gold u are referring to. All crypts can be taken wk one. Some treasuries as well, just not the ones with 150 dwarves in them (imho).
Lemme count(just cash): 1500+1500+2000+2500+4000+2500+5000=19000gc only on builds. Now army: 14*70+7*225=2555. Plus at least 1 more hero - 2500. 5005 total. So builds+army 1st week = 24k cash (not counting other resources). You have 10k (at expert) + 6*500 (income)=13k at 7th day of 1st week. Need to collect - 11k. Possible? Yes, with lots of luck And only 2 heroes to collect. Well there can be 3 of course, or even 4, but you'd need to collect more cash as well. Ok. Now the funny part:
Quote:
In the majority of random games i have played this will generate enough money to continue building and buy all 6 unicorns on day 8. With these u can take out most stacks of lvl 1-3 shooters without losing any unicorns. By end of wk 2 it is fairly easy to buy and have in the game 3 green dragons on day 1 of wk 3.
Some counting again - 6*850=5100. So on the 8th day you need 24k+5.1k=29.1k. You then will have 10k+7*500=13.5k. Need to collect - 15.6k Still possible (for ex. 3 full crypts'd do it). Ok. You're (very) lucky on got these 15k on 8th day. Let's assume, you wont buy 3rd (or 4th) hero and more army. Let's assume, you won't build anything except 2*mage guild+dragons=3k+10k=13k. Income - 6*500=3k. 10k to collect AGAIN.Oh you want a town hall? Get 18.1k total on 8th day then You want a city hall also? Get (1000 (guild)+0(blacksm.)-500(market)+4000 - assuming income of 1k)) 4.5k on 12th day (i.e. in 4 days). Let's sum all, counting from 9th day - 2k+1k+0.5k+5k+1k+10k=18.5k Income(if you bought town hall on 8th day) - 4*1k +2*2k=8k. So you need to collect 10.5k on 2nd week (w/o 8th day ) And this you must do with 2 heroes Btw, pay attention - if you dont buy anything except 2*magic guild+dragons, you'll still need only 500gc less than buying town hall+city hall and others. Let's assume your plan was successfull and you have 3 green drags on 3rd week and only 2k of income to buy them Lets count - you need 3*2400=7.2k-2k=5.2k cash to buy them all to collect AGAIN. Hmm, arent you a taxman in rl accidentaly?
------Now my building plan for rampart:
day 1..town hall
day 2..mage guild
day 3..blacksmith
day 4..marketplace
day 5..city hall
day 6..elves
day 7..citadel
day 8a..grand elves (and all bought)
day 9a..castle
day 10a..capitol
day 8b..castle
day 9b..capitol
Lets count - 2500+2000+1000+500+5000+1500+2500=15k in 7 days total. I have 7.5k starting cash (bought 2nd hero) Income - 4*1000+2*2000=8k. So i'll need to collect - (minus!) 0.5k w/o fighting. Possible? Other resources - only wood&ore. Now the 8th day. Plan A - grand elves&all bougth (1500+17*225) - 5325gc. So i need: 15k+5325=20.325k, have: income - 4*1k+3*2k=10k+7.5k (start cash)=17.5k. So i need to collect about 3k till/on 8th day Or dont buy second hero and get 1 (!!!) gold pile with starting one I have to accomplish such a hard task per 7 days =) Damn, that's hard OK, now seriuos part - i got elves, i need 11k in 2 days (15k for castle&capitol - 4k of income), or assuming all - i have to collect almost 14k cash in 10 days (only 3 days of fighting). Possible? Oh well, if you're saying, you can get 15k (w/o any building in town on 8th day) per 8 days, 10 days to get 14k - it'd be ok for me. Agree? Attention - according to plan A, on 11th day i have spare 4k, so my next build plan:
11 day..pegasis
12 day..dends
13 day..unis
14 day..unis upgrade(??)
So i spent 2000+2500+4000+3500=12k My income=4*4k=16k. So on 1st day of 3rd week i havent 3 green drags, but i have 8k cash and can buy all _upgraded_ unis (6*950) - 5700gc + 10 g. elves for 2.3k. So my army now looks like this - 6 war unis, 27 (at least) g.elves + some cents. What got you? 6 (simple) unis, 7-14 g.elves + some cents. And 2k to spend. Well you can buy 2 unis+1 elf, or 8 elves. Anyway, which army is stronger? Mine, of course Ah, you'r saying, you have plenty of army sitting in castle, but not bought out? Your probs You still need a capitol to buy After collecting huge 28.6k cash pile per 2 weeks you still need 8k on 1st day of 3rd week for a capitol So you'll go out to kill for cash AGAIN (3rd week in a row - it must be boring, man ) or wont buy anything for a 5 days. So on 3rd week, you still worried about the cash, and i'm already planning to attack you...Btw, if you'r declaring what you can collect those 28k in 2 weeks, well i can collect,say, 20k. As i need only 14k total, so i have spare 6k. Lets dream a bit, and assume, what i _theoretically_ can upgrade pegasis¢s per 2 first days of 3rd week and buy them all out. So at 16th day i got as many creatures as possible (for me), all upgraded and fully prepared to attack. On 16th day you have the same 6 (simple) unis, 1-14elves, some cents and 4k cash to spend. You say, you can buy more army on 8th week, not only 6 unis? Well, then you need to collect more than 28k in 2 weeks Is it possible? Again, _theoretically_ - yes. If you'r very very lucky. Personally i dont rely on my luck  Do you?
Btw, with plan B i can build drags on 2nd week too, but need to collect a bit more cash and w/o fighting at all. That's i call luck
P.S. If any1 still didn't get - i'll calculated all numbers, assuming that i was playing at expert (160%) difficulty. Not more, not less. If any1 wants to prove that i'm wrong with such building tactics - mail me uukrul(at)xxx(dot)lt. I'm free on weekends. I usually play with no rules or no (starting)conflux/no hill fort/no cartographer/no grail(it's easy to cheat for host).
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 23, 2003 11:37 AM |
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Sorry to say this Uukrul (welcome to HC btw).
If u don't build something similiar (u might wanna substitiute one or two depending on the template)to what Grendal has posted here above u will lose 99 out of a 100 games online (against an experienced player).
It's as simpel as that. I know u don't believe us. Most players have been there where u are now. Just try out your strategy in a multiplayer game and see for yourself.
If u can beat some good randomplayers I am sure we will all eat our words here.
Sign up for MAH or WW and look me up on the zone. We can play some randoms . Me needs some points!@
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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Veldarian
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2003 12:10 PM |
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Dungeon Build Tactic
I dunno if I'm gonna get Flammed for this post or not as I am admittedly a noob but I figure what the heck lol.
I play MP online in zone for those who don't know or haven't seen me in the zone. I generally only play Random maps of the L or XL size with underground.
I play at 100% or 130% with strong monsters no water Some will say why 100% it's too easy....Well I am a noob but thats not the only reason why. There are a couple of reasons
1)I play Dungeon and it eats up resources and you get more of em on 100% (makes it easier to do builds)
2)At a 100% there is more of a chance the rmg will generate more dungeon towns so that I can get one as a second build
Anyway on with the Build scheme
1)Mage Guild ($2k +5 W&O)
2)Loft($1K)or if built Pillar
3)pillar ($1k +1 of ea resource)or Chappel
4)chappel ($2K +5W +10 Ore)or manticores
5)manticore lair($5k + 5ea of W,O,M,S)or labyrinth
6)Citadel(5ore +$2.5k)
7)castle (10 wood & ore +$5k)
Now on day 7 I have either already traveled back to my home town with my main hero or I've used the TP special that Kuma spoke of earlier so that I can trade off troops on day 8 I've hired 3-4 minimum extra heroes for scouting collecting and chaining depending on map richness and I've been looking for sulfer and money mainly mercury next and gems and all the caches I can find to do wk 2. While my main has been fighting and finding towns and taking mines btw My main is usually gunnar or Dace and is carrying only the 8-17 harpies and 80+ trogs starting army sometimes after I build the pillar I chain the eyes to him sometimes not. I rarely buy dusas until time for final battle as they are very slow only have 4 shots and die easliy(they are a big target,a favorite it seems,for wandering creeps. and the money that would be spent on them wasted.
8)Upgrade to Scorps($3K +5 ea W,O,M,S)
Why do I do this? Well I've found that there isn't much that I can't do with 6 Scorpicores,the spell cure and some fodder) Scorps are fairly sound with atk 16 def 14 and 80 hitpoints and speed of 11 they fly also ( a great help) they also have a 20% chance to paralyze the stack they atk. If you do paralyze the stack they take 50% more damage on the next atk which will remove your paralyze and it only lasts 3 rounds. But that can make a big difference in a Dusa store or naga bank battle.
The rest of wk 2 is mainly focused on taking the resources I need to build mage guild 2 and Dragons and Building my money structures.
Well I await a reply to this post is it a good tactic? It seems to work well for me. Can you vets see a way to improve upon it or any major flaws in it? If so I'd like to know and if It's good it's here for others to learn from and if not maybe others will not make the same mistakes I have and learn from that as well
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2003 12:46 PM |
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Although my last game at 100% diff. has a very white beard by now, I think it makes sense overall. It would hurt me to have my Harpies unupgraded even on day 8, but that may be a matter of taste.
One objection I have though:Quote:
I rarely buy dusas until time for final battle as they are very slow only have 4 shots and die easliy(they are a big target,a favorite it seems,for wandering creeps. and the money that would be spent on them wasted.
Medusas are IMO a better deal for the bucks than Beholders.
Compare: They are only 20% more expensive, but deal 75% more damage. Wouldn´t you pay 50gp more for your Beholders, to have them deal an additional 3 points of damage?
Overall stats are slightly better, the 4 shots are the only minus, somewhat compensated for by the stone gaze ability.
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zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2003 02:04 PM |
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Yup, overall good post, Vel and good strategy.
Especially i like that part about mage guild in day 1 - that may seem as a not too smart move, yet i usually do the same with dungeon. Firstly, by this all your warlocks will have a bunch of spells and that may be very usefull, if once u will decide to use some scouts as a mine takers or something like that. Secondly, mage guild may have the same use as trog upgrade - to speed little green-arses up.
As for possible objections - Lews as usually is speaking truth Medusas are a way better deal than beholders in the sense of money. Of course, if u play on 100% dif, it may be not so important, but on highter difficulties too much money spent on beholders may come back as a nasty shortage around day 14...
I would only add that same goes for Manticores and Minotaurs. Of course, Mantis are lvl 6 and are better than Minos. On 100%, if u can get Manticores with ease and even upgrade them, its ok. However, if u should think seriously about your budget, minos are much more cost-efficient.
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.
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Veldarian
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2003 02:32 PM |
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Quote:
As for possible objections - Lews as usually is speaking truth Medusas are a way better deal than beholders in the sense of money. Of course, if u play on 100% dif, it may be not so important, but on highter difficulties too much money spent on beholders may come back as a nasty shortage around day 14...
I probally didn't make it very clear but I usally don't buy archers until the end battle that includes the beholders, except when I first build the pillar and chain them too my Main Hero when I build the pillar. After that they are transfered to my second hero as my main is taking battles with the scorps cure and fodder. This tactic also works on 130% and I haven't tried it on anything higher yet. As I take dusa stores and banks and achieve my Goal of dragons and Capitol. My 2cnd is still using trogs harpies and the 7 eyes to collect mines and the like.
Are you saying I should be buying these troops?
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zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2003 05:00 PM |
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U know, it depends.... I usually use medusas, even sometimes waste a day on week 2 for their upgrade. As for beholders... If u have nuff money, together with medusas (+tactics skill of overlords+minos as a backup +may be some hags) they can be even deadliest then elves.
Yet i don't feel myself so strong with dungeon as to give any advises, so...
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.
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Veldarian
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2003 09:53 PM |
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Thanks for the help!
Quote:
U know, it depends.... I usually use medusas, even sometimes waste a day on week 2 for their upgrade. As for beholders... If u have nuff money, together with medusas (+tactics skill of overlords+minos as a backup +may be some hags) they can be even deadliest then elves.
Yet i don't feel myself so strong with dungeon as to give any advises, so...
Any and all help that the more experienced players can give me is always appreciated
Thanx to zilonite and lews for responding positively to my to my post and thier constructive critisim of it's faults
And would like to thank all the other vets who make the great posts here and who have played me so that I may become a better player than I was and am at the moment, I think it's a great thing you guys are doing after all..... knowledge is power!!!! ~ and the fact that you guys are willing to share a lil of that with us noobs is great.
Figured after all the stubborn noobs it might be nice for you Gentlemen and Ladies to know there are some noobs who do appreciate it and are willing to learn if ya give us a chance
Now that the brown nosin is outta da way Don't Overkill me in da game PLEASE!!!! hehe (added toss only for a laugh)
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 24, 2003 09:59 PM |
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day1: upg harpies or trogs.
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2003 10:03 PM |
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about the medusa thing: i prefer to buy eyes only early too, several reasons:
Most often one of your 3 heroes with troops bring some eyes, and even if they dont it is 7 eyes vs 4 medusas.
Attacking monsters have zero respect for 4 medusas, but 7 or more eyes are often not attacked.
Second, medusas are way better upgraded (cheap to do too only 5 wood), while evil eyes really are no must - so you just keep chaining your eyes outa town - medusas you will have to upgrade sooner or later.
And finally, medusas have only 4 shots.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 24, 2003 10:11 PM |
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to add what andi said, having about 8-9 eyes is also nice when hitting cons early because the griffins seems to like em.
A more interesting question IMO is going for scorps or minos if you have to pick one of em.
Which one do you prefer and why?
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chubby051
Promising
Known Hero
King of All That Are Fat
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posted May 24, 2003 10:16 PM |
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Go for the Minos, 9 minos do more damage then 6 mantis.
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This thread is pages long: 
