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Saruman
Famous Hero
On academic leave
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posted June 25, 2003 01:11 AM |
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How is testing on animals any different than humans or human clones? Most animals are more intelligent than you would realize.
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Thank god I'm an atheist.
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Athimus_Phaeni
Famous Hero
Final Fantasy Fan
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posted June 25, 2003 03:34 AM |
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First of all I would suggest a QP for Dread Knight for bringing such topic to HC.
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Like those animal wouldn't do the same thing to us if given half a chance.
Nobody can say if they would or wouldn't, but following this "reasoning" the world would enter in completely chaos.
"I will do this to him because he would do the same to/for me."
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How is testing on animals any different than humans or human clones? Most animals are more intelligent than you would realize.
I completely agree. I am favor of cloning for medicinal purposes. I am rather religious(catholic), but I am not afraid of saying that probably the religions are the main reason of such acts. I dont know much about the others, but the christians ones excel the human being above all the other animals... probably the other ones too. And the main argument against cloning for medicinal purposes is a religious one.
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But I won't be
Burned by the reflection
Of the fire in your eyes
As you're starying at the sun
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 25, 2003 03:42 AM |
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Cloning may take time to develop and perfect though, time in which many humans will also die without testing. With religion though, they've almost always stood against science when science has threatened their foundations. Now that science has the ability to play god, to affect most of the miracles attributed to the likes of jesus etc Religion is feeling the pressure.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Athimus_Phaeni
Famous Hero
Final Fantasy Fan
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posted June 25, 2003 03:57 AM |
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Cloning may take time to develop and perfect though
Of course, but it will take much more time if it would be researched clandestinely(or, at least, hidden from the press and population). Many countries dont allow cloning research just to dont go against the religions. People are educaded through religion. And if a government goes agains it, the religious fanatics would probably rebel against it, causing catastrophic consequences.
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But I won't be
Burned by the reflection
Of the fire in your eyes
As you're starying at the sun
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 25, 2003 04:01 AM |
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Precisely, so more often than not, religion is a hinderance to scientific progress and has proved to have been so for centuries. I believe cloning of parts of humans is the best answer to many of the current problems, but until then, our only solution is the unfortunate, but necessary evil of animal testing.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 25, 2003 04:48 AM |
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Faced with a decision between one kid with leukemia and a thousand rats, I'd side with the kid every single time.
Personally I´m not so easy about this kind of decision. Why, on what rational grounds, do we value our own lifes higher than those of thousand animals? Is that because they are of lower intelligence? Or because we are we and they are they?
What I find even more problematic than the death of these animals is the pain they have to endure. How many rats would you slowly torture to death, in order to save one human life? Maybe I´m misinformed, but as far as I know it´s not that unusual for animal tests to be comparable to the most inhumane torture practices.
Why do we tolerate a rat´s long-lasting pain and suffering, when we can assume that what it feels is hardly different than what a tortured human would feel?
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted June 25, 2003 06:28 AM |
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What animals do you not object to using...
Rats dogs cats pigs cows lamb fish chickens turkeys clams crabs lobsters rabbits guinea pigs squid octapus bees deer elk moose pheasant monkeys dolphins birds ferrets snakes aligators mink beaver racoon oppossum
animals are products and if you disagree just look in you fridge or your closet.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted June 25, 2003 06:35 AM |
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I object to using anything which is sinful of nature..
But oh well, look at the entire selction..
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What are you up to
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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 25, 2003 07:25 AM |
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First of all I would like to thank Athimus_Phaeni for suggeting a QP for me.
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Go to a hospital. Go to every single person there and tell them that you'd rather have them die than a rat. Hell, go throw red paint on them and call them animal killers because it's demand for cures that drives research on animals.
There is the occasional "bastard scientist" as PH put it, but in general, nobody wants to do the experiments on animals. They are done because they are necessary to save human lives. Faced with a decision between one kid with leukemia and a thousand rats, I'd side with the kid every single time. Anybody who says that mouse models and experimentation is unnecessary to develop new therapies knows diddly over squat about science.
Of course, the cosmetic industry is something completely different. Feel free to throw red paint on them.
WTH are you talking about!!!
Thats the big problem!
Because Animals and even PRIMATS Don't respond to deseases like humens!!!
Havn't you heard about hte last medicine that was tested on dogs?
The last medicine was supposed to make the pregnency period shorter, and develop the baby faster.
It was a total success on dogs!
But when humens tried it, A disaster happend...
The babies that were borned, had 2 heads, or had no legs or arms, or that were suffering from deadly deseases!!!
think about it....
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Fire_Dragon
Adventuring Hero
King of Dragons
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posted June 25, 2003 09:01 AM |
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Shortcuts....shortcuts
Humans are always trying to find an easier way to something
like that baby pregnancy thing.
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The King of Dragons emerge from its lair to seek vengence upon its throne of Fire.
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted June 25, 2003 09:44 AM |
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snow... What are you talking about?
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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 25, 2003 10:39 AM |
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Read this thread from the beginig and maybe you'll find out.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 25, 2003 01:34 PM |
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Some testing can transfer the likely results to humans. You really have to take your pick DK, either we test on animals, we test on humans, or we don't test at all.
Simple as.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 25, 2003 02:17 PM |
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You don't understand !
If we want to know how a medicine will take effect on humans then we sould test it on humens PH!
coz' Animals and humans doesn't respond the same to medicines!!!
What is good for a dog is good for a dog! not for people...
Why people can't understand this!
Go to the site: http://www.animalcruelty.com
and see by yourself.
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted June 25, 2003 04:51 PM |
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Because this technique still worx in most cases, I suppose. In other case, it wouldn't be used.
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Read this thread from the beginig and maybe you'll find out.
lol fine joke
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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 25, 2003 05:37 PM |
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This tecnique is so wrong!!!
Now in the tcnology era we don't need no animals to experiment stuff on them!!!!
Now we can take blood samples from diffrent people and test on the blood samples!
BTW there are even some races that don't respond the same to medicine!
If a Chinese man responds good, I doesn't mean that the African will too!
So it's the same about animals and people:
WE DO NOT RESPOND THE SAME!!! WE ARE DIFFRENT!!!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 25, 2003 06:34 PM |
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You don't understand !
If we want to know how a medicine will take effect on humans then we sould test it on humens PH!
Fine, volunteer yourself for the next experimental treatment on a certain disease then. Or do you think others should? Testing on humans means humans die, I don't like the fact animals die, but that doesn't mean I'd prefer to see humans die in their stead. Oh and btw, again the last people to do serious research based solely on humans were Mengle and the Nazi's in death camps.
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coz' Animals and humans doesn't respond the same to medicines!!!
Utter rubbish, I'm sorry, but just because SOME animals don't respond the same, some equally do, usually those showing genetic similarity to us. You quote one example without bothering to find out if this is the norm. If what you suggest is true science simply wouldn't use animal testing at all, it would be an expensive waste of time.
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Now we can take blood samples from diffrent people and test on the blood samples!
Blood samples can't be used to test everything, many tests involve simply infecting/testing on the entire subject, and failiure means death.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 25, 2003 08:51 PM |
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Sorry but
I disagree.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 25, 2003 10:33 PM |
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Prove it then.
I never said I LIKED animal testing, I just recognise that at this exact moment in time science and therefore the western world NEEDS animal testing. It's a reality we cannot fully escape right now.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted June 25, 2003 10:46 PM |
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I wouldn't mind to put an end to animal testing, when a good substitude will be found. Until then, I do believe that animals feel pain or any other emotions on a much lesser level and do not deserve equal treatment. They deserve better treatment, but directly comparing them to humans is just wrong.
Testing on clones is just as wrong as testing on humans because as far as they know, perfect clones should have feelings just as humans.
The only solution that won't harm anyone would be to test all of these substances on some sort of a perfect computer simulation that behaves like our world. This has not yet been achieved but any other method of testing would result in death, and not testing would result in more death.
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