|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
posted June 26, 2003 04:37 PM |
|
Edited By: bort on 26 Jun 2003
|
So shut those labs down, but don't stop animal testing as a whole because of exceptions to the rule. Equally sensationalist pictures can be posted of people dying of AIDS or cancer or any other disease.
And you can come up with the same pictures from isolated farms:
wanna close down all farms?
____________
Drive by posting.
|
|
Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 04:50 PM |
|
|
That's everybodeys problem!
No one will shut THOSE labs!
NEVER i didn't hear about a experemental lab that was shutted down!
Part of it....
Just know, that an animal that suffered before the death, has too much adrenalin in it's meat and it's bed for our health.
____________
|
|
IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
|
posted June 26, 2003 05:04 PM |
|
|
bort: well done! You're medic?
Athimus_Phaeni:
Quote:
There are billions of humans in Earth. We care about each human death.
Ur right. But. First, humanity can (in perspective) afford natural death to all of its members. Animals world is another thing. 2nd, it's really some kind of insurance.
DK: please watch your mou..., er, keyboard, you sometimes say lol things  . And, vegetables IMHO are tasty, too.
BTW,why is it in tavern?
____________
|
|
Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 05:08 PM |
|
|
Thet your problem!
You say thet the animal word is diffrent!
Right, we are more intelegent, but we don't have to use it that way!
____________
|
|
IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 05:09 PM |
|
|
previous post was supposed to B after bort's. typed offline.
fine photos. 
____________
|
|
2Xtremetotake
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 05:22 PM |
|
|
Shut down all experimental labs, Execpt for important research (Cure for Cancer, AIDs, etc. etc) or why dont they use volenteer humans for their research, or bums off the street.
____________
I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 07:00 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Thets compleatly a NASTY thing to say!
And? Truth hurts doesn't it? I believe you stated you did not care about lab rats.
Quote:
I Just cant find an animal that fits more than a rat for testing.
Course not, you'd prefer us to either not test, or test on the animal known as a human.
Quote:
And if you so smart can u tell me, how many human lives were ruined because of a medicine that was tested on animals was good?
I'm no scientist, ask Bort.
I mean no offense DK, but you take isolated propaganda style pictures and articles on a small section of the scientific community and equate this to being the norm. As bort showed, it isn't, and until you PROVE it is the norm you're frankly talking utter rubbish. I can show articles from various magazines that state labs being reprimanded for their work. What's more likely is not that you never hear of them being closed, but you never look closely enough to find out.
Quote:
Shut down all experimental labs, Execpt for important research (Cure for Cancer, AIDs, etc. etc) or why dont they use volenteer humans for their research, or bums off the street.
Yes, why not bums, or hell why not jews, homosexuals, political prisoners and the mentally ill? Remind you of anything?
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 08:09 PM |
|
|
YOU JUST REALLY PISS ME OFF #$#@%!T^&&*#^@%!!!!!!
I mean no offense PH, but you try to prove me something and i can't understand nothing from the utter rubbish u say!
I didn't say ALL the labs are bad and doing such stuff to animals.
MOST of the labs are like that. it's not a propoganda!
And i definetly don't try to tell u something because u are not a scintist!
About the animal that fits more than any animal-Now u really piss me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was talking about rats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I really don't want tests on people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I said it before coz u pissed me! just like u are doing now!
Stop it will ya!
I don't tell you should agree!
It's my opinion, and respect it! just as i rspect yours!
You can agree, you can disagree!!!!!!
But just RESPECT it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 09:21 PM |
|
|
Quote:
and i can't understand nothing from the utter rubbish u say
How interesting, I said science needs testing on either the whole animal or whole human, bort showed proof of this. This appearently is utter rubbish as opposed to your opinion that purely blood samples or DNA is needed. I said your attitude can at times be hypocritical because you in one post declare your lack of care for a type of animal whilst later trying to say you care for all animals. Either one of your posts was incorrect and not your true feelings or you are hypocritical.
Quote:
MOST of the labs are like that. it's not a propoganda!
And what basis calls for you to say this? Do you have facts and figures on this, or is this merely your opinion? What is "MOST" pray tell? Which ones, which countries? Have you looked into this clearly or is this merely your suspicions?
Quote:
I really don't want tests on people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then what do you want tests on? Blood and DNA won't bring the right results fully, so you need a replacement rather than this knee-jerk reaction to the terrible treatment by some digusting scientists meaning one of our major forms is stopped so we can feel a little better about ourselves.
Why you get upset is your problem, you're basing your argument on moral grounds, not at all paying attention to the cold reality of the world and human needs. The pictures and treatment you have described is an reason for closing down those labs, it is NOT an argument for stopping testing. You don't seem to be understanding the reality of the situation is affecting our NEED for these tests.
And to top it all, you offer nothing in the way of proof that the industry does this on anything more than an isolated cases basis, which again shows these cases should be charged, not the industry halted. Some of them are, I can prove that, despite your emotional claim that they are not.
Answer me this if you will..... you're (or if you prefer a son or daughter) dying in hospital of something, and the only cure involves using a drug you are somehow 100% sure was tested in such conditions as you describe. Would you rather die for your principles or would you take the drug? I suspect you'd take it, most humans would.
And that is what rules the real world, will testing on animals save human lives, it's been shown in the past that it has, and until something better comes along it will continue to. By all means close down those who keep in dreadful conditions, but you're simply not living in the real world if you think closing all of them down is going to solve anything.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted June 26, 2003 09:23 PM |
|
|
Quote:
MOST of the labs are like that. it's not a propoganda!
And i definetly don't try to tell u something because u are not a scintist!
I am a scientist. How many labs have you been in? Most labs are not like that.
____________
Drive by posting.
|
|
Athimus_Phaeni
Famous Hero
Final Fantasy Fan
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 02:40 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Do you?
If not tell me with what you do or do not agree, I'd like to know.
I agree with you that using animals for drugs tests isnt a good way. But, today, I, unfortunately, cant think in another way to solve this problem(drug testing). As bort showed us in a previous post, blood testing(your suggestion) isnt enough.
I do like animals, as can be noticed in my previous posts in this thread. But in none of them I said it must be stopped right now. What I emphasized is that animals should be respected. They have feelings and suffer as we do. I this point I completely disagree with Oldtimer, IVY and IRh.
As privatehudson and bort said, there is no way to prove that most labs treat the animals in a way to make them suffer.
But using animals to beauty products testing isnt acceptable.
I hope that with this you all can see what is my point of view.
____________
But I won't be
Burned by the reflection
Of the fire in your eyes
As you're starying at the sun
|
|
Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 03:34 AM |
|
|
First of all Iīd like to say that Bortīs long explanation changed my view and my opinion quite a bit, although I still do not agree with all of his conclusions.
Hello IYY,
Quote:
Steal a baby from a human female and she may die of sorrow, steal a baby from a rat and it will continue its life as normal.
If you do just a bit of research, youīll find out that most animals care about their children just like we humans do. Itīs not unusual at all that they die defending the lives of their cubs.
Quote:
Except for the cases of the more intelligent animals like cats, I would say that animals can better be compared to computers than humans.
Maybe Bort will prove me wrong, but as far as I know, modern neuroscience more and more comes to the conclusion that we humans are nothing but biological machines. Using that argument to distinguish yourself from animals is wishful thinking.
Quote:
I wouldn't mind to put an end to animal testing, when a good substitude will be found. Until then, I do believe that animals feel pain or any other emotions on a much lesser level and do not deserve equal treatment.
Many people believe what they want to believe, because it makes them feel better. IYY, if you received further informations with reliable evidence that animals fail pain just like humans do: How would your attitude towards these experiments and the mistreatment of animals in general be changed?
Hello Privatehudson,
Quote:
Oh and btw, again the last people to do serious research based solely on humans were Mengle and the Nazi's death camps.
Sorry, but putting animal-rights activists and Nazis into one bag is utter nonsense. If we really want to make such a comparison (which I myself would not have felt inclined to start with), it is the proponents of unrestricted animal testing who
-> support the exertion of worst cruelty and pain on living beings against their will
-> lull their own consciences by firmly believing in their own superior value.
Hello Khayman,
Quote:
Let me simplify things for you here...A loved one is on their deathbed, and in order for them to live, you must take the life of an animal in order for them to survive. Do you let your loved one die or do you kill the animal? Unless the loved one is my mother-in-law, there is no doubt about what I would do. You?
I think you simplify things just a bit too much here. In the given situation, you and I would not only be willing to sacrifice the life of an animal, but also that of a human person we donīt know/like.
We very much care about humans and animals that we know, and even more when we like them. To feel compassion about a newspaper death, we need to identify ourselves with the persons who died, and/or his or her relatives, project our own feelings and fears onto them. And just the same goes for an anonymous animal thatīs being killed.
Hello Oldtimer,Quote:
animals are products and if you disagree just look in you fridge or your closet.
History is full of people like you, who have considered humans of other color or heritage to exist solely for their own convenience. In the year 2003 youīve just changed the scope, but not the principle, that says: I am most valuable. Who is like me is more valuable. Who is unlike me is less.
Well, Iīm still undecided on the whole issue - Bort gave me quite alot to think about for some time - but it seems to me that this whole subject works like a magnet for easy answers and rationalizations, even absurdities among them like the belief that animals do not feel pain.
Last word goes to Bort ...
Quote:
but I think it's just as arrogant to sacrifice human life on the altar of one's epistemological self indulgence.
As this was directed to me: No, I do not sacrifice human life on the said altar - did I make any judgement about how human life relates to animal life? Iīd just like to know why we have this status of superior value. Itīs never arrogant to ask for a reason.
____________
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 04:16 AM |
|
|
Quote:
If you do just a bit of research, youīll find out that most animals care about their children just like we humans do. Itīs not unusual at all that they die defending the lives of their cubs.
Is that why hamsters eat their young when required to? Animals make completly rational preprogrammed decisions which are benifitial to their survival as a species. Humans, on the other hand, may do something completly irrational for their children or loved ones that will not help anyone, but is just demanded by their human emotions.
Quote:
Maybe Bort will prove me wrong, but as far as I know, modern neuroscience more and more comes to the conclusion that we humans are nothing but biological machines. Using that argument to distinguish yourself from animals is wishful thinking.
I am reading a lot about AI and neuroscience now myself (as a hobby, I am nowhere as advanced as bort to understand the exact details) and I do believe that humans are something like biological machines (although I also beleive in the existance of a soul but that's besides the point here). The thing is that animals are far more machine like than humans. Look at it this way - an animal brain simulator may be possible in a few years (I'd give it a maximum of ten) but a complete human simulation is nowhere near our current scientific skills. This is not just because of intelligence, but also because of emotions - feelings that we cannot yet scientificly explain.
Quote:
How would your attitude towards these experiments and the mistreatment of animals in general be changed?
My attitude would not be changed, because I still believe that animals are not complexed enough to feel that pain on an emotional level and this still makes a big difference.
____________
|
|
cELFIOUS
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 04:38 AM |
|
|
Those pics are disgusting bort. I didn't know thing's were so brutal. I know enough that its a messed up reality for any living creature to live caged, letalone packed into a cage and beaten, & tortured by people who are going to kill them.
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 09:56 AM |
|
|
Bort...
I was only in one lab!
And the only animal that was tested was a laborotory mice.
Mybe in your lab they treat animals better then in the farm you showed.
But it's bullsnow that they care about animals there and they are treating them right!
And i was in a shelter, that animals, wich were tested brought there.
And bilive me, it's a sight you wouldn't like to see...
And IYY, you are wrong, it's the father who eat the cubs, not the mother.
that's why you should seperate them(the mother and the father)
____________
|
|
Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
|
posted June 27, 2003 12:26 PM |
|
|
Yes, bort, I looked at those cruelties to animals, and I do feel sorry for them, however, not ALL farmers and laboratories do these things. And, NO! do not close all of the farms otherwise how the hell are we going to get our meat, veg, dairy and fruit from, huh? If we have no commercial farms, we would starve to death!
Now, don't you dare call me mean, evil, traitorous, or a money adoring hog just because I support commercial farming and meat, but if you're looking for animal cruelty, why don't you point your anger to illegal fur and sport hunters rather than farmers and scientists? Hunters kill more animals than farmers and scientists.
I smell Hippies...
____________
No one knows my true nature here...
|
|
Fire_Dragon
Adventuring Hero
King of Dragons
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 12:37 PM |
|
|
Its true...
Hunters kill for sport and fun...
Its unneccesary...
When I was a small kid,
I use to cry seeing hunters
hunting birds and other
animals through TV.
____________
The King of Dragons emerge from its lair to seek vengence upon its throne of Fire.
|
|
Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
|
posted June 27, 2003 03:20 PM |
|
|
Sensetive Decent Person...
Dudes, just try to find why it's true not why it isn't.
____________
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 05:50 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Yes, bort, I looked at those cruelties to animals, and I do feel sorry for them, however, not ALL farmers and laboratories do these things. And, NO! do not close all of the farms otherwise how the hell are we going to get our meat, veg, dairy and fruit from, huh? If we have no commercial farms, we would starve to death!
Now, don't you dare call me mean, evil, traitorous, or a money adoring hog just because I support commercial farming and meat, but if you're looking for animal cruelty, why don't you point your anger to illegal fur and sport hunters rather than farmers and scientists? Hunters kill more animals than farmers and scientists.
I smell Hippies...
Have you actually read any of my posts? I never said we should close all commercial farms or all labs. I was pointing out that you can produce propoganda pictures for any cause. I have been strenuously supporting animal testing in labs. And no, hunters do not kill more animals than farmers and scientists. And I have no problem with responsible hunting (which excludes the fur trade). And I am not opposed to commercial farming.
READ FIRST, THEN ARGUE.
____________
Drive by posting.
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted June 27, 2003 08:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Sorry, but putting animal-rights activists and Nazis into one bag is utter nonsense. If we really want to make such a comparison (which I myself would not have felt inclined to start with), it is the proponents of unrestricted animal testing who
-> support the exertion of worst cruelty and pain on living beings against their will
-> lull their own consciences by firmly believing in their own superior value.
Congratulations for utterly missing the point I was making. I was not comparing activists to nazis, I was suggesting that if they wish to cease animal testing they should at least come up with viable working alternatives, which so far they have utterly failed to do. Otherwise the following would occur:
No animal testing means either NO testing, testing on volunteer humans(and no-one's yet put forward a serious way of obtaining the necessary numbers) or enforced testing on humans. Only the latter involves the kind of attitudes seen in the death camps. Since DK and others have yet to advance a serious way of acheiving volutarily the needed amounts, or equivalent replacements for animals you have to assume that animal rights activist either advocate no testing, or enforced human testing. Either way is going to result in humans dying, and only one of them results in nazi-like atrocities.
YOU are the one who made my post into that comparison by totally misreading it.
As for the whole animal pain thing, well I'm sorry, but call me selfish, but I'm a human, my species is HUMAN, and in a fight to ensure my species survives diseases I am not willing to see Humans die rather than animals. It has nothing to do with superiority, and everything to do with preservation.
Quote:
I was only in one lab!
And the only animal that was tested was a laborotory mice.
Mybe in your lab they treat animals better then in the farm you showed.
But it's bull**** that they care about animals there and they are treating them right!
Do yourself a favour, pull your head out of your **** and read Bort's post a few pages back about the american system of testing on animals. Do try and remember that before spouting this emotional rubbish against all the facts.
Quote:
And i was in a shelter, that animals, wich were tested brought there.
And bilive me, it's a sight you wouldn't like to see...
And yet still you offer no indication of how widespread this is, only scattered incidences, which would indicate, if anything that they are rare. Maybe it would help if you bothered to inform us where this lab you visited was, or where the shelter is, so we might have some idea of that countries practices.
Quote:
READ FIRST, THEN ARGUE.
*nods* couldn't agree more
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
