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Khaelo
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posted October 26, 2003 05:21 AM |
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You're contradicting yourself, Shadowcaster.
First, you say:
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Homosexuality is a conscious and, IMO, deplorable decision in which the natural course of life is horribly disrupted.
Okay. So you maintain that a person conciously chooses their sexual orientation. At some point in our lives, everyone sits down and decides, "Okay, I'm going to be gay" or "I'm going to be straight." That is the implication of your statement above.
But, then you say:
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I have never once found any guy attractive in that way, in fact, I find the thought repulsive. I do not have to suppress that feeling because it is non-existent in me.
So heterosexuality was not a choice for you. You couldn't be homosexual even if you wanted to, because "that feeling is non-existant" for you. Am I correct?
The two postions don't fit. If it is a choice, everyone chooses, both those who end up straight and those who end up gay. Do you recall doing this? If it is not a choice, orientation is forced upon all, and neither straight nor gay can force feelings that are non-existant. Does this hold true for you?
Take your pick.
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Celfious
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posted October 26, 2003 05:30 AM |
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He made a choice along time ago, and strongly thinks & feels that he dosnt want to be homosecual. His self, tells him, and has told him since he made the thoughts true to himm that he chooses hetro.
But, choices can be like sine waves/\/\/\ with no exact up or down, just general levels of the feeling.
theres alot of reasons, to staay on what hetros call the upside. Cuz hetros think its right for many reasons, and everything else, is a justification to avoid the way things are meant to be.
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Khaelo
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posted October 26, 2003 05:36 AM |
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theres alot of reasons, to staay on what hetros call the upside. Cuz hetros think its right for many reasons, and everything else, is a justification to avoid the way things are meant to be.
Indeed, there are a lot of reasons why one wouldn't want to be homosexual. Children are a biggie. While lesbians can just "deal with" a night of hetero sex to conceive, it's much harder for gay men, and I know of men who are agonized over this. Other things include the possibility of getting fired from one's job, losing one's friends, not having access to the many benefits of legal marriage, and in some areas, the risk of bodily harm and death by bigots.
This raises the question: Why would anyone voluntarily choose to subject themselves to these problems?
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Shadowcaster
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posted October 26, 2003 05:45 AM |
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Just because a feeling is non-existent in the present does not mean that it can never exist. Choosing one alternative or the other for all eternity would be demoralizingly objective, as all choices in life would remain with us forever whether we wanted them to or not. People change.
One can still choose whether he or she feels they want to be a homosexual or not. Anyne's sexual preferences can change over time, but they seldom do. Choices follow desires, and some, like myself, do not have a desire to engage in homosexual activities, and I doubt I ever will. Granted, there is no way that I can be certain, because the choice is always there, but it does not need to be changed. It simply may be.
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Khaelo
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posted October 26, 2003 05:56 AM |
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Just because a feeling is non-existent in the present does not mean that it can never exist. Choosing one alternative or the other for all eternity would be demoralizingly objective, as all choices in life would remain with us forever whether we wanted them to or not. People change.
Agreed. But, as you also note, for most people sexual orientation is relatively static. Some do change through their lives, or their understanding changes (especially bisexuals and those who have ingrained homophobia). But for most, it stays pretty steady.
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Choices follow desires, and some, like myself, do not have a desire to engage in homosexual activities, and I doubt I ever will.
This is interesting. What do you mean by desire? Sexual desire, or just regular wanting? What causes a desire to "engage in homosexual activities"?
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Shadowcaster
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posted October 26, 2003 06:08 AM |
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This is interesting. What do you mean by desire? Sexual desire, or just regular wanting?
I simply mean whichever you prefer, which sex you are attracted to by instinct.
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What causes a desire to "engage in homosexual activities"?
IMO, homosexuality was born from curiousity, a desire to experience the unknown. I cannot personally relate to homosexuals because I have not ever had the desire to test (or cross) my sexual boundaries. Therefore, I cannot tell you what causes a homosexual to become a homosexual. That is a question to which only a homosexual would truly know the answer.
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Peacemaker
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posted October 26, 2003 04:21 PM |
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QUOTE:
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Just because a feeling is non-existent in the present does not mean that it can never exist. Choosing one alternative or the other for all eternity would be demoralizingly objective, as all choices in life would remain with us forever whether we wanted them to or not. People change.
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I cannot tell from your first paragraph whether you are advocating exclusive hetersexuality or choice. It actually sounds like the latter.
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One can still choose whether he or she feels they want to be a homosexual or not. Anyone's sexual preferences can change over time, but they seldom do. Choices follow desires, and some, like myself, do not have a desire to engage in homosexual activities, and I doubt I ever will.
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Choices follow desires. You state yourself that you have never had the desire. And it is not a matter of becoming homosexual because you are curious and try it. I did. I found that I did not desire it and that it was alien and uncomfortable to me. I did not choose it because, as you state, I did not desire it.
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Khaelo
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posted October 26, 2003 05:16 PM |
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IMO, homosexuality was born from curiousity, a desire to experience the unknown. I cannot personally relate to homosexuals because I have not ever had the desire to test (or cross) my sexual boundaries. Therefore, I cannot tell you what causes a homosexual to become a homosexual. That is a question to which only a homosexual would truly know the answer.
The curiosity theory is an interesting hypothosis, but it is not borne out when you actually start going out and asking homosexuals why they are gay. What most homosexuals will typically tell you is that it is not a choice. Many struggle with trying to avoid their sexuality, or trying to make themselves straight ("testing sexual boundries" as you term it, driven by society's demands), and it just doesn't work. They find physical intimacy with the opposite gender as unappealing as you find it with the same gender.
Curiosity certainly doesn't explain my case. Coming from a very sheltered upbringing, I didn't even know that bisexuality existed before having to grapple with instincts that seemed contradictory. People were either straight or gay; what's this both nonsense? Was I out of my mind and hopelessly confused? When the word "bisexual" finally came to light, it was an instance of, "Oh, so that's what I've been feeling all along!" rather than, "Oh, that looks interesting. Why don't I try it?"
And that is why I maintain that homosexuality/bisexuality are not choices. (How could I choose something that wasn't even a valid option in my former worldview?) And, since sexual orientation is therefore one of the whims of fate that we are all subject to -- not unlike race or gender -- that is where my "place yourself in our shoes" argument for empathy starts.
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Celfious
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posted October 26, 2003 07:55 PM |
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For boys (example) its sometimes like this.
A 5 year old kid has a somewhat normal thought to play with barbies. Then for some reason he wants to feel like a pretty girl, you know, wear lipstick and whatnot.. Cuz their beautiful and stuff.. (I will tell my son, daM it boy play with heman foo'!)
It so happens that he becomes gay (because a 5 year old dosnt know a difference, but he keeps going with the I wanna feel like a girl thoughts) so he has, an excuse. He can say "I was born gay, cuz even before I knew it, i wanted to feel like a girl"
thats just 1 example...
Nobody is born any different than anyone else, insofaras sexual preference and ideas 
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Khaelo
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posted October 26, 2003 07:57 PM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 26 Oct 2003
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A 5 year old kid has a somewhat normal thought to play with barbies. Then for some reason he would rather be a girl, you know, wear lipstick and whatnot..
"Rather be a girl" is being a transsexual, not homosexuality. That's a whole different set of issues.
Edit: {in response to edit above} Um, "feel like a girl" is still transsexuality. Male homosexuality isn't about feeling/wanting to be like a girl; it's about falling in love with a guy. 
In response to post below: So, you admit ignorance as to the feelings of homosexuals/bisexuals, but instead of listening and learning, you've posted a pie-in-the-sky theory based on ignorance. 
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Shadowcaster
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posted October 26, 2003 11:17 PM |
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I cannot tell from your first paragraph whether you are advocating exclusive hetersexuality or choice. It actually sounds like the latter.
That paragraph does not mention heterosexuality anywhere. I simply laid out a general concept to show that people's preferences can and do change, some more often than not.
I did not advocate either in that paragraph, but if I was choosing a side, then I would choose heterosexuality over choice because people do not always know what is best for them. A good example of a bad choice is smoking, not that smoking is wrong, it is simply hazardous. Most know the consequences, yet they do it anyway. They substitute long term health for short term appeasement.
As for curiousity's relevance in this matter, homosexuality (or bisexuality) can cause curiousity early on, before the concept is even introduced, but that does not necessarily the feeling is natural. The unknown is largely responsible for instilling curiousity into our minds, as people tend to enjoy exploring areas previously not scoped out. To understand the basis of sexual tendencies, one has to know at least the basic framework of sexuality, that guys are normally attracted to girls and vice versa, and if he or she does not know, then the curiousity is innocent because they do not know what is right or wrong in the matter.
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burgessia
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2003 01:05 AM |
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For boys (example) its sometimes like this.
A 5 year old kid has a somewhat normal thought to play with barbies. Then for some reason he wants to feel like a pretty girl, you know, wear lipstick and whatnot.. Cuz their beautiful and stuff.. (I will tell my son, daM it boy play with heman foo'!)
It so happens that he becomes gay (because a 5 year old dosnt know a difference, but he keeps going with the I wanna feel like a girl thoughts) so he has, an excuse. He can say "I was born gay, cuz even before I knew it, i wanted to feel like a girl"
oh rubbish!and why do you relate gay men with women?and are there really "girl" and "boy" thoughts? or are you simply thinking in a way they told you to think (you know,girls like make up,boys like to fight etc.)
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burgessia
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2003 01:11 AM |
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I did not advocate either in that paragraph, but if I was choosing a side, then I would choose heterosexuality over choice because people do not always know what is best for them.
and why do you think homosexuality is bad for people?
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Aculias
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posted October 27, 2003 01:25 AM |
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Just phazes kids go through exploring dif thangs & learning from them.
Burgessia some are prejudice against those kind of people & we cant change that.
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barb
Hired Hero
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posted October 27, 2003 02:18 AM |
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whats with all the Quotes?
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Shadowcaster
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posted October 27, 2003 02:39 AM |
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In response to post below: So, you admit ignorance as to the feelings of homosexuals/bisexuals, but instead of listening and learning, you've posted a pie-in-the-sky theory based on ignorance.
Where have I thrown out a theory based on ignorance? I am not saying that I haven't done so, but I cannot find it if I have.
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and why do you think homosexuality is bad for people?
As stated in an earlier post, I am a Christian. I hold fast to the belief that homosexuality is bad for humans because it degrades those who practice it. I think that homosexuality leads to unnatural things that defile the body.
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Just phazes kids go through exploring dif thangs & learning from them.
Burgessia some are prejudice against those kind of people & we cant change that.
No, I am not prejudiced against homosexuals, I just believe that they have made the wrong choice on this matter. I have used many IMOs in this thread, because that is all my posts are, my opinion.
Using your logic, opposing viewpoints from around the world, such as views on religion and foreign intervention, are prejudiced against each other. Nowhere have I said that I want to wipe homosexuals off the face of the earth, I am simply sad to know that they have chosen the route they did.
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Khaelo
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posted October 27, 2003 04:07 AM |
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As for curiousity's relevance in this matter, homosexuality (or bisexuality) can cause curiousity early on, before the concept is even introduced, but that does not necessarily the feeling is natural. The unknown is largely responsible for instilling curiousity into our minds, as people tend to enjoy exploring areas previously not scoped out. To understand the basis of sexual tendencies, one has to know at least the basic framework of sexuality, that guys are normally attracted to girls and vice versa, and if he or she does not know, then the curiousity is innocent because they do not know what is right or wrong in the matter.
This quote is what I was referring to as a theory based on ignorance. It's one thing to make a theory in ignorance then go and check it out against facts. It's another to continue holding onto such a theory after evidence (in this case, the stated experiences of homosexuals) runs the other way. Granted, the only words you've got here are Milena's and mine, so if you'd like to see others' stories, I can direct you to another forum where this issue is debated.
On the other hand, if your position is based in religion only, that's a whole other story and I won't argue you on that.  I still think a Bible-debate thread would grow quite quickly here.
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Shadowcaster
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posted October 27, 2003 04:14 AM |
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Yes, I am trying to be careful not to start a religious debate. Those don't belong in this thread.
My theories are purely speculative, and as I said before, I do not know anything about the minds of homosexuals, so I could be completely wrong in all of my statements. They are only opinions, and I am sorry if they are totally off the mark in any way. I am not trying to make it seem that my word is objective, I am simply trying to communicate why I believe same sex marriage and the like is wrong.
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Aculias
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posted October 27, 2003 10:31 PM |
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Yea watch out K got a temper here.
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Vadskye91
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posted October 27, 2003 10:50 PM |
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I think that as long as the homosexually inclined (dunno where I came up with that) lay of on the heterosexuals they can do whatever they darn well feel like doing.
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This thread is pages long: 
