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| Thread: Faction Discussion — Sylvan! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2025 07:18 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:23, 06 Apr 2025.
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Rimgrabber said:
What contradiction?
The obvious thematic one? People will see a demon taking the role of a "Sylvan" hero long before they read any lore excuses. And even then they might find what's basically the equivalent of a Balrog defending Rivendell a bit too distasteful to accept anyway. It's such a jarring concept that pointing at lore to say it fits comes off as an attempt at placating criticism more than anything else.
Etharil said:
Stevie said:
I guess we're now not forwarding posts here when the reveals are too controversial. Just a bias I noticed.
Surprise demoniac hero in "Sylvan", Octavia. Reddit link.
I wasn't home for 2 days. Nonetheless thank you for helping me out and posting it, much appreciated.
As for Octavia's presence in Sylvan, this isn't as impossible as it might seem: in Might & Magic VI we come across Tomb of VARN that is guarded by both Genies and Efreet alongside the droids used to protect Ancients' technology. This, from our perspective, has been a sufficient enough indication that there was more to the two races than what we've seen in the HoMM series.
Using that, we've chosen the most opportunistic Efreeti in the form of Octavia, who has already proven that her allegiance to the Kreegans was purely opportunistic in nature as is evident of her being a part of Asylum in Heroes IV rather than Necropolis (or Infernopolis, as some would say), further reinforced by Xyron's bio where it claims the Efreet-Kreegan alliance was temporary. I understand the concern but I also would like to point towards a hint at somebody else in her biography. It should make a bit more sense in the future.
Sure. It was an hour after the reveal and wanted to talk about it and only posted after seeing you reading this thread and not doing it yourself. Certainly, no one's trying to manage anyone's activity around here, job description or not, but if it's me posting it will have my spin on it and if that's fine by you, then you're very welcome.
As for Octavia's presence in fake-Sylvan, no amount of lore can un-demonize an efreet to the point it fits an actual Sylvan theme. Not because it's a retcon or lacking internal coherency. No, it's more that the concepts are way too different and more at odds with each other than not for something like lore to be able to topple that. So your explanation, while welcome and appreciated, is missing the finer point: efreet are inherently evil and do not fit thematically in a faction about protecting a grove.
Now to get down to the nitty gritty of some lore details:
- efreet in Varn is largely, if not entirely, for level design/gameplay reasons. They wanted djinn and anubis-shaped guardians because they fit the theme of a pyramid and a gameplay need for an upgrade, not because there was any lore behind it. That's the most realistic, occam's razor explanation.
Sure, you can go to greater lengths and imagine how NWC meant to portray efreet serving the ancients there, but not only is that far-fetched and not even close to a sufficient explanation of why suddenly efreet are not evil, it goes against every lore hint from NWC in the following games that they were.
- efreet were meant by all intents and purposes to be evil throughout all NWC Heroes games, much like how they are represented in mythology. And in Octavia's case she looks the part (horned, red, flaming, demonic), acts the part (deadly sin of greed, profligate) and is playing the part in-game (Demoniac in H3 Inferno, defined as people possessed by demons).
- yes, Octavia and efreet appear in H4 Asylum, a faction full of evil-aligned creatures. She didn't align herself with, say, the nature faction Preserve, for what I imagine is a very intuitive, compelling and beautifully simple reason that NWC was wise to: she didn't belong. Not because they lacked coin. So thanks for making that point for me.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 06, 2025 08:25 PM |
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Galaad said:
Rimgrabber said:
I don't know how anyone could say with a straight face Heroes 5 Sylvan didn't have one of the best town soundtracks in the series
Heroes II Sorceress for me... If I had to pick one for that town in particular. But all of them are good. 
Heroes 2 Sorceress is also a favorite of mine for sure! This faction has some of the most consistently awesome town themes I think, not that any of them are really bad.
As for my confusion around contradictions, I was thinking lore contradictions which archdruids alluded to, not thematic contradictions which again I would argue there aren't really. Sylvan is the wood elf faction on Ashan. In the original universe, this is the first iteration of Sylvan and I think that a chaotic faction of elemental spirits in the murmurwood fits that fine, although I know you disagree Stevie and that's fine.
I will point out though, that while Octavia doesn't join Preserve, Ignatius, also a demoniac presumably possessed by devils, does. Not to mention that this is before all of that happens, so Octavia as a fire spirit who is particularly opportunistic fits right in.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2025 09:00 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:09, 06 Apr 2025.
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But you leave out the part where Ignatius, who was human from the beginning and only joined the demons to save his life, needed a thorough exorcism to switch allegiance in Heroes 4. Humans have a much easier time switching factions, and in Ignatius' case there is an established reason why it happens. In Octavia's case there's no such event, and we're only left to speculate why she still fits despite that. Different scenarios.
Etharil said:
The_Green_Drag said:
I think Yog should join Sylvan this time around
As far as I recall, he wasn't born yet. He is a fairly young character if his campaign is anything to go by.
Oh, okay. So genies are fair game as long as they're old enough. Then this is basically confirmation that we'll be seeing them. Not putting it past you guys at this point. Are we getting psychic elementals too in this "Sylvan" faction? Look, there's Anubis-shaped creatures in VARN, immune to magic, have psychic attacks, look black and humanoid enough like those from H3 and are also probably from the same elemental planes. It's all there, what's stopping you?
But more importantly, if one fringe case of efreet appearing in VARN is sufficient enough indication to include one in "Sylvan" down the road, what is the reason for excluding unicorns despite being from the region and fitting Sylvan thematically like a glove? I would really like this point from LordInsane answered more than any other, ignore the rest if you have to.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 06, 2025 09:05 PM |
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We aren't left to speculate. They provided a bio with her explaining why she's there. And yes, individual genies as heroes are fair game, just like individual efreets as heroes are fair game. Halon is mentioned in Octavia's bio so he is probably also one of them.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2025 09:41 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:43, 06 Apr 2025.
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I'm not asking how she got there, I'm asking why she's staying. She chose to become an ally and protect the forest despite being an accidental summon that was not meant to be there, despite having to avoid the forest's wrath all the time for her behavior, and despite how she longs for the coin she can only find in nations beyond the woods. Those are not reasons she's staying for, those are reasons she's staying despite. So no, it's not at all clear as you claim.
Genies and efreet as heroes are fine. The question is why are they fine as heroes in "Sylvan"? Because this is Conflux in disguise, that's why. That's the point I'm making. This faction is a takeover.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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TheJoker
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 06, 2025 09:49 PM |
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Holy smokes are you dramatic.
"They are taking our jobs Sylvan!!!111"
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 06, 2025 10:02 PM |
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They are fine as heroes in Sylvan because this iteration of Sylvan is a chaotic elemental town. Maybe Octavia will have a map dedicated to her story or maybe she'll appear in the campaign and all your questions will be answered. But if not, is it really that big of a deal? I understand that you think it's closer to Conflux and shouldn't be called Sylvan, but I do think you are making a way bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 02:11 AM |
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It is apparently a big deal to the Devs. Otherwise, they wouldn't have changed any of the other faction names.
I mean, why is Hive not just called Inferno? The word does not mean Kreegan just like Sylvan does not mean elf. But when asking about Inferno the answer is always about the Kreegans not being around at this time, just like elves. Somehow, it's a big enough deal to warrant a new name for one faction, but not the other. Feels like the lore is used as creative inspiration to make Hive work but used as a loophole excuse for Sylvan.
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 07, 2025 02:14 AM |
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But this is the first iteration of Sylvan in this lore. Inferno was used for the Kreegans, Sylvan was never used for AvLee or the equivilent nations. If they had called it Rampart I'd agree with you, but they didn't.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 02:40 AM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
It is apparently a big deal to the Devs. Otherwise, they wouldn't have changed any of the other faction names.
The switch from Haven to Temple better emphasizes the more brutal, near-villainous take on the faction. I also shouldn't have to explain what going from Inferno to Hive represents. But, Sylvan means Nature Faction, which it still is. Why would they need to change it?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 03:56 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
The_Green_Drag said:
It is apparently a big deal to the Devs. Otherwise, they wouldn't have changed any of the other faction names.
The switch from Haven to Temple better emphasizes the more brutal, near-villainous take on the faction. I also shouldn't have to explain what going from Inferno to Hive represents. But, Sylvan means Nature Faction, which it still is. Why would they need to change it?
And yet the Temple might hero is still 'Knight', while the 'Sylvan' faction has both a unit, and a hero class named 'Druid'.
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 07, 2025 04:27 AM |
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Is the druid unit confirmed? My understanding is that that is just what people are calling it based on the pictures we've seen of it. It could be called something else.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 05:41 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 06:17, 07 Apr 2025.
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Since creatures that have yet to be names are titled just 'Name' (notably the Aqualotl's upgrades), I'm fairly confident in saying that the creature is called 'Druid'.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 06:21 AM |
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MattII said:
And yet the Temple might hero is still 'Knight', while the 'Sylvan' faction has both a unit, and a hero class named 'Druid'.
I don't know how that connects to literally one single thing I said.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 06:39 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
MattII said:
And yet the Temple might hero is still 'Knight', while the 'Sylvan' faction has both a unit, and a hero class named 'Druid'.
I don't know how that connects to literally one single thing I said.
Other than you commenting on the name change of Have to Temple, and Knight being a Temple hero class?
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TrueMefista
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 07:38 AM |
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I think he meant Knight was not renamed into something more monastical.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 08:31 AM |
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TrueMefista said:
I think he meant Knight was not renamed into something more monastical.
Exactly. Thank you. In that way, Templar or Crusader would have have been a more expected choice, as both are warriors, but with religious connotations.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 04:20 PM |
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Doesn't that support my point, though? They kept the name Knight because it's the established name for the class, just like how they kept Sylvan because it's the established name for the town.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 08:38 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:26, 07 Apr 2025.
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MurlocAggroB said:
Doesn't that support my point, though? They kept the name Knight because it's the established name for the class, just like how they kept Sylvan because it's the established name for the town.
Let's compare that to your previous statement:
Quote:
The switch from Haven to Temple better emphasizes the more brutal, near-villainous take on the faction.
So the theme of the faction changes, but the name of the might hero doesn't? Is that really logical?
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted April 07, 2025 10:40 PM |
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Yes? The entire point is that the names they choose don't really matter, as long as they're communicating the right thing. You are the one blowing up the importance of names, not me. You need to prove why Sylvan isn't a good name for The Nature Faction.
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