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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted February 01, 2006 07:50 PM |
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After todays events which took place in the Amona settlement extreme religious settlers will think twice about attacking the police force again.
I watched it live on TV and felt sorry that I couldn't drive for two hours and join the police and army force to kick some settler butt.
The majority of the israelis (and me among them) including the high order court are against those settlements and wish them to be evecuated.
If the court reaches a dicision it must be executed immediatly and without any resistance, but the settlers thought otherwise and got what they diserved.
Watching CNN and BBC afterwards and seeing how badly it looks to the rest of the world and how they represent Israel in the international view made me feel awfull to live in the same country with this people.
I think Israel will do their part in the agreement with the plestinians of evacuating all the illegal settlements but makes me wonder about Hamas doing their share towards reaching any ceasefire be it a long one  or just a short one  .
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 01, 2006 07:50 PM |
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The Council of Europe and the European Union have put pressure on the Israeli goverment. Official statements of dissaproval of their strikes on civilians seemed nothing to them.
Without the will to back up these um, strongly worded disapprovals european governements essentially give license to the Israelis to continue doing what they're doing. Israel is able to tell Europe to stick these statements where the sun don't shine.
Actually, Europeans pride themselves on diplomacy. That's fine. That's admirable. Where are the economic sanctions against Israel?
No there have been no economic sanctions on Israel, unfourtunately. I dissagree with it but that's the way it is.
But still your grand US of A, is not better. No sanctions, not even a nice depeche...
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Let me ask you what has your goverment done? What great tasks have they accomplished to help the opressed people of Palestine?
Um, my governement is backing the other horse with billions of dollars a year in aid. Really, it's hard to sympathize with Palestinians when they strap young men with bombs to blow up school buses filled with children. Don't preach to me about how 'oppressed' the Palestinians are.
Let me ask you this though. Why is it that certain arab governments will give thousands of dollars to the family members of suicide bombers? Why do they promote it? Why do they give it their tacit approval?
And why on god's green earth aren't these same governments giving the same amount of money to entrepreneurs in Palestinian territories? Why aren't they giving say, small business loans?
Um. Yeah that is the right word. Let see. You said your goverment gives billions. That's about all you got right. Your goverment does gove billions. But to the Israeli army. Actualy it is 3Billion US Dolars. Nice amount of money since it comes directly from the tax payers and is funneled into the Israeli armed forces.
On the other hand, the EU founds the Palestinian more than any other legal subject in the world. In fact it has payed over 250 milion Euro's since the founding of the Palestinian Authority. About 125 Milion per year.
Well as far as I know you you are a person who lives in sterotypes. Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers. Actualy it is a very small percentage. These founds are to support local buisness, infrastucture and goverment.
Perhaps you should take a look at the facts before you write something.
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And one more thing, have you ever even been to Europe?
You've caught me. I've never been to Europe. I've never been to the land of bad teeth, bad cuisine, easy women, fast cars, and gypsies. Would I soften my stance if I visited and become more enlightened by dealing with barely comprehensible people chiding me on how much my government sucks?
Tell me, what did you learn in your time in the US? You came as a godless, commie, heathen socialist and you left as one.
Since you have never been hear how can you speak like that. But since it's you, i'll let it go. Perhaps you saw someone on TV saying those things and found them witty, or read that in a magazine, or even better saw it on TV.
For all I care, don't ever come near us, but before you come and write sharp and aggresive things like that atleast know something on the subject. I know it must be hard for you, but just try. You're petty insults are nothing more then a sign of your imaturity.
And what has my time in the US taught me? Alot of things. Amongst some it showed me in what a horrible level of hyppocisy, false belives, stupid patriotism and ignorance the most of your population lives. But on the other hand I met people who were ashamed of they're countrymates or atleast dissagreed with this state of society and mind.
It showed me some and taught me some of the darker sides of your system. It was an enlightening stay. Not an easy one, but worth the time...
Perhaps one day the same people who go to church each sunday just for the sake of it, the same people who polish, lock and load their guns, drive SUV, live in a world of twisted values and false belives will wake up and find out there is more to life and to the world. But with attitude like you are showing, my friend, that is very unlikely.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted February 01, 2006 09:01 PM |
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I think Israel will do their part in the agreement with the plestinians of evacuating all the illegal settlements but makes me wonder about Hamas doing their share towards reaching any ceasefire be it a long one or just a short one .
If Israel does its share of the plan 100% accurately, it will have the International support in case something f***s up later on. As a matter of fact, I think it would be best for the Israel to give Palestinians complete control of their land back to them and then guard the borders. If someone attacks from the other side of the barbed wire, Israel will be fully justified to defend itself because such an attack can be treated as an aggression rather than people fighting for their freedom.
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted February 01, 2006 09:14 PM |
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Hmm... What land is this Palestinian land Israel should give back and why?
After long discussions and organized commeetees the UN itself decided to form a Jewish country and handed out the land. Israel was nice enough not to evacuate all of the arabs who were still left in its borders.
And tell me if the land that will be left to Israel will be enough to house 6 milion people...
I think i remmember that in 1948 when the country of Israel was formed there
were only 2 to 3 milion people living there including the arab people.
It will be like a jail cell when 100 people will be living on 1 square meter.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted February 01, 2006 09:27 PM |
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The UN decision was unfair. There should have been 2 states. What if they decided to only form a Palestinian state back in 1948?
And yes - some places are overcrowded - that's the reality. If some country is overcrowded, it doesn't mean it should expand at the expense of the other coutries.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted February 02, 2006 12:56 AM |
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After long discussions and organized commeetees the UN itself decided to form a Jewish country and handed out the land. Israel was nice enough not to evacuate all of the arabs who were still left in its borders.
Israel was nice enough not to start Ethnic Cleansing? This counts as being pleasant to you?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted February 03, 2006 05:05 PM |
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You're right.
You could've stopped there. But since you didn't...
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The Israelis should adopt a more humane way
of defending them selves, like strapping bombs to their
bodies.
refer to
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Really, it's hard to sympathize with Palestinians when they strap young men with bombs to blow up school buses filled with children.
Didn't mean to steal your thunder prematurely.
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But seriously, I wont defend violence on any side,
nor will I argue further with a faux persona who likes to
criticize everything.
Criticize everything you say, eh? There've been times I've found myself in complete agreement with those who not only have solid sources(including you) but those who are able to shape a forceful opinion from them(not you).
You see, though you are very educated and I'm sure had the best of intentions with your cut/paste job, I for one would have preferred to hear how the violence affects you directly. I for one would prefer to hear real life experience mixed with a smattering of historical context.
Instead you give a white-washed, watered down, flimsy, meager, and lazy effort to explain your point. I'm not surprised. Since I'm a faux persona I don't deserve to hear what you really could bring to this discussion.
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The terrible situation in the
Middle East can be resolved, but only if Israel is
accepted as a fact.
Agreed. It just sucks that Israel lost whatver moral high ground it may have once had.
Now Sir_Dunco.
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ut still your grand US of A, is not better. No sanctions, not even a nice depeche...
Of course my country isn't going to sanction Israel. My government is unabashedly pro-Israel.
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Um. Yeah that is the right word. Let see. You said your goverment gives billions. That's about all you got right.
So I'm rereading what I wrote. Where exactly am I wrong since I only got right the sheer amount of aid that my country contributes to Israel? Tell me.
Is it where I wrote that Palestinians strap youg men with bombs? Because you know, they do.
Is it where arab governments give money to the families of suicide bombers? Because you know, they do.
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On the other hand, the EU founds the Palestinian more than any other legal subject in the world. In fact it has payed over 250 milion Euro's since the founding of the Palestinian Authority. About 125 Milion per year.
So by your math the Palestinain Authority has only been around for two years. 250/125=2. And you're telling me to get my facts straight?
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Well as far as I know you you are a person who lives in sterotypes.
And..this is a bad thing?
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Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers. Actualy it is a very small percentage.
Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers? Wow. I didn't know that. Thank you for enlightening me. I'll just rescind what I'd written before. Not.
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Perhaps you should take a look at the facts before you write something.
Coming from you this is truly laughable. I've watched the way your little brainwashed mind has twisted facts. I've blanched when I've read some of the craptastic dogma you've spewed over the years. Propaganda and misinformation are your meat and drink kid. You're not fooling anyone.
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Perhaps you saw someone on TV saying those things and found them witty, or read that in a magazine, or even better saw it on TV.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Oaths of enlistment aside, I'm original.
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And what has my time in the US taught me? Alot of things. Amongst some it showed me in what a horrible level of hyppocisy, false belives, stupid patriotism and ignorance the most of your population lives. But on the other hand I met people who were ashamed of they're countrymates or atleast dissagreed with this state of society and mind.
It showed me some and taught me some of the darker sides of your system. It was an enlightening stay. Not an easy one, but worth the time...
You know, I'm surprised and impressed as to what kind of cross secion of american society your 8th-9th grade classroom was. I'm glad to hear you were able to discover so much over your 20 minute lunch break in the cafeteria. No, really.
So let me get this straight. If an american showed remorse, guilt, resentment, or anger towards the US government they were enlightened. And if they disagreed with you they were mindless capitalist pigs? You know, that approach doesn't really allow for an exchange of ideas.
I thought that TNT-Adict would bring something refreshing until I read this.
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Israel was nice enough not to evacuate all of the arabs who were still left in its borders.
Well that's awfully swell of your country. Ph's question aside, what's going to happen when the settlements are torn down and the issue of the right of return of the refugees is again brought up?
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted February 03, 2006 11:27 PM |
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I don't think suicide bombings and terrorist attacks on one hand - and building a giant fence right through villages, spraying fields with roundup, and rendering people homeless with bulldozers on the other hand can really be compared. In my eyes both sides of the conflict are far from innocent, they just use different types of violence against each other because there's a huge difference in level of infrastructural organization between the two. Neither way of violence is better or worse ethically, both are equally rejectable - and if you choose sides in this conflict based on the type of violence used... know that ideas like yours fuel this sort of conflicts.
Personally I think the way Israel was 'formed', by taking away the Palestineans' land is unacceptible. I'm not saying the Israelian people did not deserve a country, but the way it was 'given' is absurd. Of course today Israel is a fact, and the situation as it is cannot be reversed. Stating that Israel should be given back to the Palestineans is just as naive as stating that the Israeli are rightfully there.
Though both parties are far from ready for this right now, in time integration will in my opinion be the only solution out of this problem. The refugies will have to be able to return one way or another, and the Palestinean people will have to accept the existance of Israel as a nation.
Then one question especially for the_gootch, have you ever considered the fact that your fellow Americans as you say may not think of you as a model compatriote?
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted February 04, 2006 02:50 AM |
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I've been reading these posts and overall I agree with the Gootch. (wow that sounds really wierd)
I'm not very sympathetic towards the Palestineans.
There isn't going to be much hope for peace if they continue blowing themselves up and causing civilian casualties.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted February 04, 2006 03:00 AM |
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Nidhgrin,
At what point does your opinion compel you to take action?
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Abbot
Hired Hero
of NECROPOLIS
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posted February 04, 2006 03:08 AM |
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Slowly WW3 is coming. Cristians VS Islam. America must unite with Europe and Russia!
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The beginning of the end is just a natural flow of emotions.
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted February 04, 2006 01:54 PM |
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Consis,
To answer your question, it does not. I could just as easily defend the Israelian point of view as the Palestinean one. In fact I usually don't judge at all but try to remain neutral and unbiased. I have to admit that in most situations I feel more sympathy for the party in the underdog position, but this still doesn't influence my actions.
The natural consequence of not imposing any judgement is one of non-action. Because this way of life is not really constructive, for myself I choose to pick out the things I want to take action for - still without choosing sides. Thrust me, it can be done
One of the three action files of our local Amnesty International group is about Israel and the Palestinean matter, and we've been working on problems on both sides. Some examples from 2005 are the use of roundup on Palestinean crops, and a few cases of Palestinean women who died or suffered complications giving birth at a checkpoint where they were held up for hours on their way to the hospital. Another example are our actions against the use of the death penalty by the Palestinean Authority on convicted criminals judged by unfair trials, basically killing innocent civilians.
One could wonder if it all helps, and what good working out individual cases does to the big picture, and you know I'm not always convinced that it does. But atleast it helps for the people involved. And somewhere I believe that if we can make the few people involved that we help see that people on 'the other side' are only just humans like they are too, we might be able to gradually reduce the mutual hate and misunderstanding in this conflict.
To Abbot and all others using war rethorics, please read and reflect on the following points:
* violence is a catalyst for conflict - it only causes more violence
* the use of violence is never acceptible ethically - even if the purpose is to end other violence
* if conflict resolution is dictated by which party has the biggest gun, how do you feel about China becoming the new military superpower of the 21st century?
Thanks for listening
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted February 07, 2006 03:02 PM |
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Personally, I'm non-violent, yet I understand those
Jews who have had enough. The terrible situation in the
Middle East can be resolved, but only if Israel is
accepted as a fact.
Personally, I am non-violent, yet I understand those Palestinians who have had enough. The terrible situation in the Middle East can be resolved, but only if Palestine is accepted and treated as a fact.
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Through all this I have learned that racism is just another word, most inappropriately given to humans persecuting other human beings for any number of reasons. I do not believe in racism. I believe in a spectrum of Human characteristics; many good and many equally bad. Life is about choices. A person can choose to persecute or not to. History seems to have shown this is a very real characteristic of human beings. Those who choose to persecute do it, I think, because they are led by some unknown inner fear. Those who choose not to persecute have more time to work on gaining inner peace and understanding.
Actually, racism is defined as believing a race (preferably your own  ) to be superior to other races, whether physically, intellectually, mentally, or otherwise.
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Euros don't have the stomache for armed conflict.
How very true. We’ve bled too much for nothing too many times, so we don’t really like armed conflict anymore. But hey, who can blame us?
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Really, it's hard to sympathize with Palestinians when they strap young men with bombs to blow up school buses filled with children. Don't preach to me about how 'oppressed' the Palestinians are.
Generalisations are a neat rhetorical tool. Why should we sympathise with the Israelis when they act the way they do? Why should we sympathise with American KIA families, when they act the way they do?
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And why on god's green earth aren't these same governments giving the same amount of money to entrepreneurs in Palestinian territories? Why aren't they giving say, small business loans?
Excellent point. Economic progress is usually a good way to take the edge off of conflicts.
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So I read through that post Shiva. I'm sure somewhere in there is a gem. I'm sure that somewhere in there is a very strong justification for Israeli gunships to fire rockets into civilians.
I can't find it yet. Help me out.
Didn’t you see it?
It’s easy: The suffering of the father justifies the crimes of the son, just as the son carries the sins of his father. Enlightened?
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Personally I think the way Israel was 'formed', by taking away the Palestineans' land is unacceptible. I'm not saying the Israelian people did not deserve a country, but the way it was 'given' is absurd. Of course today Israel is a fact, and the situation as it is cannot be reversed. Stating that Israel should be given back to the Palestineans is just as naive as stating that the Israeli are rightfully there.
I’ve seen it suggested that the tragedy of Israel is that is was founded as a colony during the last years of colonialism. When most other colonies were being given independence, Israel was formed. Of course, Israel wasn’t like other colonies, and is far from one today, but the problematic relation between this state and the principle of national sovereignty.
Anyway, since I’m so good at quoting other people’s opinions, here’s another one:
“The only possible solution to the conflict between us and Israel, is a common, democratic state for us all. We cannot have two states, or religious states, everyone must have the same rights. You know, objectively speaking, there is no other way. It’s like South Africa. They tried many different solutions, but only one could succeed - a common democracy for all. Today, there are only a few people in Israel thinking like this, but if the support to Israel from the US and the EU was to disappear, they’d face the realities.”
- Ahmad Sa’adat, member of the Palestinian parliament.
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If some country is overcrowded, it doesn't mean it should expand at the expense of the other coutries.
Damn, there go my plans for Sweden.
In any case, Consis raised an interesting question above: What now, when Hamas has won the election?
Their most important task, the way I see it, is to neutralize all of Fatah’s militias - like the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigades, and suchlike. It’s impossible for them to hold promises about cease fires with autonomous armed groups milling about like ants. Furthermore, they should do their best to do what they were elected into office to do - root out the extensive corruption which has spread in the organization of the Palestinian authorities. And of course try to be civil when dealing with Israel...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 07, 2006 03:43 PM |
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Personally, I am non-violent, yet I understand those Palestinians who have had enough. The terrible situation in the Middle East can be resolved, but only if Palestine is accepted and treated as a fact.
Its called mutual recognition. There never will be one
Palestine in the Middle East. The Palestinian member of
parliament quoted later is dreaming. Israel will remain
unless it is destroyed. If it is destroyed, the rest of the Middle East will be also, because it will take a
a nuclear war to do so
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Didn’t you see it?
It’s easy: The suffering of the father justifies the crimes of the son, just as the son carries the sins of his father. Enlightened?
Violence begetting violence is never right. However,
everyone, and I mean everyone will defend themselves.
If you can come up with a better way for Israel to defend
itself, then be my guest. Joining with the Palestinians in one country is not an option. Perhaps Norway should
join with Sweden?
There are many reasons for the present
intifada, but the mosy overt cause was Sharon's visit to
the Temple. Why do the Muslims complain? They built a
shrine on the site of the holiest place in Judaism. If they had any respect for other religions, they never
would do such a thing, yet they demand to be respected.
I believe the Israeli's are remarkably restrained in
their responses to terrorism. Certainly, not even close
to the Syrian governement killing 20,000 of their own at
once. If the shoe were on the other foot, if the Palestinians had gunships, then you would see a true
genocide.
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted February 07, 2006 05:44 PM |
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If a time comes a those neighbouring islamic contries will think that they can take Israel down, they won't waste anytime and do their best at wiping out Israel mercylessly...
The only thing that keeps them in bay is that Israel can defend itself and they know it well from the 4 former wars and won't and can't beat Israel.
The islamic hatered for jews is by far stronger than the opposite hate, jews do not want to destroy all arabs as the arabs want to destroy the jews.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted February 07, 2006 07:58 PM |
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As I stated earlier, Egypt and Syria by themselves nearly beat Israel once. Don't allow the crushing victory scored at the end of Yom Kippur to make you believe Israel wasn't on the ropes at the start.
On another note have you met every Arab TNT_addict? You seem to know an awful lot about how they think...
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted February 07, 2006 08:13 PM |
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Nice point there you make me think twice now, I work with arabs every day and I met about 5000 of them alredy... But they are Israely arabs and they move freely and have stores (to which I deliver) and vote in elections and almost all of them are better people than the jewish Israelies I can't deny that.
But I'm not familiar with the Palestinians and do not want to be, Hamas is doing a great job representing them.
I don't think an Israely could be able to do any of the stuff said above if he was living in an Islamic country, he would be killed at the spot, beaten to death by a mobb or have his head cut off.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted February 07, 2006 08:26 PM |
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Joining with the Palestinians in one country is not an option.
Why not?
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Perhaps Norway should join with Sweden?
I'm all for that, but it's kinda off topic.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted February 07, 2006 08:59 PM |
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But I'm not familiar with the Palestinians and do not want to be, Hamas is doing a great job representing them.
Those that don't learn to deal with terrorists politically are doomed to fight them until they do. Dismissing an entire people for the actions of a minority seems rather unusual thinking to me. Seems almost akin to the extremist muslims who think Danes are all ignorant unbelievers for the publication of those cartoons.
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I don't think an Israely could be able to do any of the stuff said above if he was living in an Islamic country, he would be killed at the spot, beaten to death by a mobb or have his head cut off.
AFAIK Jews live in Turkey without any of those things. There's apparently a few living in Egypt too.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted February 07, 2006 09:09 PM |
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AFAIK Jews live in Turkey without any of those things. There's apparently a few living in Egypt too.
Great! Now maybe we can grow from a few to a bunch, then there will be pure harmony!
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