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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted December 11, 2005 07:06 PM |
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2005 09:21 PM |
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I think its best to be too lenient, Conan.
Unless there are complaints or obvious
transgressions of the COC, let it go.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2005 10:26 PM |
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Edited By: Conan on 12 Dec 2005
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Interesting.
Peacemaker,
I'd like to know what the gootch has told you.
Gootch's post was spam and I think everyone who read the post agrees with that. It added nothing to the debate nor was it related with the topic in any way. I deleted it in that context and I thought nothing of it.
Secondly, if The Gootch gave you the correct information, you probably know that I deleted my own posts and dklob's posts that were not related to the thread either. Hence, deleting his post was not damaging to the thread itself. I'll tell the whole story here, but I find it sad that this should come up again. It shows obvious lack of trust in my capabilities.
It started with dkolb's orginal post in which he used harsh language against Trogdor. I responded and then we had several exchanges related to this little problem. When it was over, dkolb agreed with what I had to say and he apologized to Trogdor without me asking him to. I simply wanted him to be careful.
I decided to send him an IM and we mutually agreed to withdraw our posts because we both found it was not related to the topic in any way. I could of done it by IM and no one would of known. That is probably what I will do next because of how this is now getting out of hand. Dkolb is the one who asked me to delete his post towards Trogdor. I did not agree because I felt it was taking something away from the thread. So I proposed to edit it myself and he agreed with me. So it was done.
Now surely, The Gootch was not aware of all of this. I am trying to be transparent here as a mod and to make this a better place to visit and to interact with international individuals. I don't see how deleting posts that are unrelated to a topic does any damage. In fact, as I said, all the chat could of been done by IM and this conversation would not be happening.
One last thing. By reading your post, PM, you made it sound as though I delete and edit posts without notifying the poster himself. I'd like to state that this has never happened, except for Spam. I do beleive you understand that in the amount of Spam mods delete everyday, we do not notify a user if his post got deleted - it would be silly to do this. Like I said, I asked dklob's permission before acting. Same goes for Svarog, by the way. In concerns to The Gootch, I do understand his sarcasm very much. In fact, I gave him a star for it because like you said, it's pure genious. In any case, when The Gootch is sarcastic, no one is singled out and no one gets bitter about it. dklob's unique time he was sarcastic was directed at a single user and was out of line. I consider these 2 different type of sarcasm.
In any case, it seems like my standards of order are a little to high, since 3 members seem to be unhappy about how I deal with volatile tempers in this forum. Though I would like to have dklob's take on it, because he seems to me like an intelligent fella.
So what I'll do is to follow what you guys are telling me. I'll be more relaxed. I am here to make it better for members to discuss real life issues, not silence them, as you say. I still don't understand why it's a problem to delete a post with the user's consent, but hey, ya can't win them all... 
Seems like status quo was the best option then?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 12, 2005 01:14 AM |
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Conan --
Hmmm... I have many thoughts about your post. Sorry if mine seemed too harsh.
Let me think about what you've said and I'll try to respond a bit more thoroughly than below later (back to work -- it might be a while). But I'll relay just a few thoughts right now.
Mainly, just because a post is short doesn't always necessarily make it spam. By deleting something you think interrupts the flow you are censoring someone based on your judgment. I'm' not saying your judgment is bad. What I'm saying is that it might not be as universal and simple as you are thinking.
I realize the Gootch and I are both mutual fans and good friends. Maybe that biases me in a respect. But I'll tell you one thing -- when we go looking for one another's posts over the past three years -- and we frequently do that -- neither one of us has ever gone to find the other's post and found it deleted. So what you are doing isn't as typical as you might think.
I too post one-liners once in a while, but nobody deletes my posts. Sometimes I have a short, simple message -- maybe a joke, maybe a stand-down, maybe a salut to an old-timer just returned. But I know if I were he I would be very upset if people started just deleting my stuff because it was short. And deleting someone's posts after discussions asking you to do to is an entirely different matter. But then you already know that and are acknowledging it.
If you start deleting one-liners like that you will anger long-standing members who do not typically entertain nor post spam, but who feel like they have earned the respect through their general quality that should be taken into consideration when sending a short, simple message. There are frequently subtleties in our messages that we want to be part of the discussion flow. Sure, there is a reasonable argument that it can be characterized as "spam." but there's also a reasonable argument that it isn't.
Again, Conan. It's not that I don't trust your judgment. It's that some of us feel like you might not be trusting ours. I will submit to you that whether something adds to a dialogue or not is a matter of greatly subjective judgment, especially if you do not fully understand the nature ofthe relationships between the individuals involved.
And thanks again for opening this dialogue. To me it's not spinning out of control at all. I think it's very honest and informative. I thought it was good work you starting this dialogue in light of your recent activities. That tells me you are wanting feedback, not just resolute and closed-minded in the way you are running things.
Hang in there, Conan.
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted December 12, 2005 01:43 AM |
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Peacemaker, sorry if that sounds like harsh criticism, all you say is a nice theory, but have you actually read the posts in question? Ie do you know what you are talking about or is it a "he said that he said" argument?
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 12, 2005 05:11 AM |
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Hi Val --
No, unfortunately I never got to read any of the posts in question. That's the frustrating part. But The Gootch pretty much told me what his said word for word. It was along the lines of,
"Dkolb, meet Wolfman. Wolfman, meet dkolb," or something like that. The message was pretty clearly that the two had something in common. I think that neither of them would have taken any offense at that, or at least can't imagine why either of them would. The same thought -- that they have similar politics and should be introduced to one another -- had already crossed my mind as well.
I invite Conan to correct me.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 12, 2005 04:15 PM |
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Edited By: Conan on 12 Dec 2005
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Well,
yes it was exactly that which was said. (more or less one word) But too me that is spam and here is why:
1- it does not contribute any way to the debate of a soon-to-be new president.
2- I asked myself why the need to introduce one to the other, or if it was merely a joke. If dklob has read Other Side, then he knows all about Wolfman. Then again, if it was a joke, I fail to see the humor. This leads me to my conclusion:
This is very unimportant in my view. What I mean to say is that if the member who's post got deleted is pissed off at me, he can simply tell me. If I fail to see humor and delete something and it should be posted back, it can all be worked out through IM. But it wasn't. Why? because Gootch may not have found it important enough. And to hear this from you, PM, disturbs me. That means the Gootch has an issue with me and he won't talk to me. That's alot less productive then it awe to be. You coming as a third party and telling me these things about how others feel is really not the best way to go about this. And if he really wants to have that post back, then I encourage him to post it again. Somehow I have a feeling he won't.
That being said, if there is a problem with the way I view this or treat these kind of posts, then by all means let me know so I can rethink my way of doing things. What would be easier is for members to denounce spam when they see it. That way I could remove the post and already know everyone agrees with this.
One last thing. The length of the post has nothing to do with it. I'm sorry if that's the message I was sending, but I didn't mean it that way. One liners or quick facts are just as valuable and you have a very good point there - one I agree with.
At any rate, I'm curious to know what all of you think about the way I treated dklob's issue.
Let me know. And PM, thanks for your constructive criticism.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted December 16, 2005 07:53 PM |
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Zomg it's Peacemaker to the rescue! My hero, :).
Quote:
1- it does not contribute any way to the debate of a soon-to-be new president.
Directly it doesn't. Indirectly it does. You see Conan, in the interest of efficiency I was trying to draw Wolfman into the conversation. As the lone parrot for the conservative republican party line, I thought it would be a good thing for him to see that he had some backup. The boy has been terribly lonely in his ideals ever since Dargon left.
I say efficiency because I wanted to kill two birds with one stone.
Quote:
This is very unimportant in my view. What I mean to say is that if the member who's post got deleted is pissed off at me, he can simply tell me. If I fail to see humor and delete something and it should be posted back, it can all be worked out through IM. But it wasn't. Why? because Gootch may not have found it important enough. And to hear this from you, PM, disturbs me. That means the Gootch has an issue with me and he won't talk to me. That's alot less productive then it awe to be. You coming as a third party and telling me these things about how others feel is really not the best way to go about this. And if he really wants to have that post back, then I encourage him to post it again. Somehow I have a feeling he won't.
The issue is relatively unimportant to me as well. This isn't the first time I've had posts of mine deleted. Heck, on most of the other ones the mods have deleted for me I figured they were sparing me a qp penalty or the hassle of having to defend the impression of a double standard.
I suppose if I felt strongly enough about it I could've IM'ed you. You are right to assume that it more or less is a nonissue. Another option could have been to hiss and spit and make it public. But what was once a viable option is no longer. Your boss has seen to that, for better or for worse.
As for Peace jumping on this issue, I thank her. Though in this case her displeasure may have been a bit out of place, the overall looming issue of censorship is certainly a fight worth fighting.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 16, 2005 09:06 PM |
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Edited By: Conan on 16 Dec 2005
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Boy, I hope you're not being sarcastic this time!
But seriously, I see where you are coming from when it comes to drawing in Wolfman to the conversation. That was something I did not see.
I want to thank you for posting here and making it final for all of us. I will keep an eye out and be careful when I delete those kind of posts.
I also want to thank everyone that posted for sharing their thoughts on the subject and contributing to making the Other Side a nice place to exchange.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 17, 2005 01:09 AM |
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LOL you guys --
Sorry if I got into the middle of something I should perhaps not have. But Conan, I want to make something clear -- The Gootch did not ask me to intervene on his behalf. Fact is, I've been waiting to hear from him for a while on HC and when I went to find the post (notification through robot) it was deleted. So I called him and we talked.
He told me what it said, and I thought it was a bad call to delete it. So just so's you'll know, The Gootch did not appear to think anything greatly sinister about your deletion -- it was I who took that reaction upon myself.
Glad you posted Gootch.
Conan, Gootch's explanation for why he posted is a perfect example of what I meant when I said there may be information passing back and forth in these short posts that you might not pick up, and so this is a perfect example of why to err on the side of caution is the best policy. I did not mean to make any comment on your judgment based on what was before you, but judgment is based on information and you should probably presume you do not have enough to pass a clean judgment on such things more often than not.
Any of this making sense?
Thanks for your efforts Conan.
Holiday peace to all --
PEACE
P.S. TO ALL: I have been at work all week which is going to be the norm for me from now on. If you don't hear from me for long periods of time, that's why.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted December 31, 2005 03:00 AM |
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I noticed recently that a few people who have posted quite a bit in Other Side suddenly have a lot of QPs, such as Svarog and Peacemaker. Have you guys been reading through old threads and applying QPs? 
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Go Red Sox!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 31, 2005 06:25 PM |
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Speaking in my own defense
Those qp's have been coming on me rather gradually over the last two or three years. I think with only one exception they were applied within a few days after the post was made, so you can tell when they were given by checking the post date. There was a cluster of about three that came on me during a heavy posting period, I think that was earlier this year though.
How the heck are ya RSF? Haven' seen you in a while!
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 25, 2006 10:25 PM |
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I'd like to recommend the mods examine "Of Moose and Men" for some qp's. At least one for The Gootch, and there is also a very well written one by a newcomer by the name of violent flower.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2006 04:53 AM |
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Edited by Conan on 25 Mar 2006
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open to your comments...
I have given violent flower a QP for her post as per PM's request, and also because it is clear to me that person did put much effort into this post, which is reason enough.
Good job!
As for The_Gootch, well, if I gave him a QP for every time he showed off his writing skills, it wouldn't be fair, would it?
I mean, we did QP him enough for his writing abilities! 
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted March 26, 2006 07:37 AM |
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Quote:
As for The_Gootch, well, if I gave him a QP for every time he showed off his writing skills, it wouldn't be fair, would it?
Why not?
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted March 27, 2006 02:41 AM |
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Quote:
Why not?
Before Conan paints himself into a corner, I've a pretty good idea of the answer already.
Of Moose and Men violates the CoC. The price I pay to keep the editors out; the price I pay for my own juvenile journalistic integrity, is to not be recognized for the work.
And that's fine by me.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 27, 2006 05:25 PM |
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In Good Order
Quote:
"Of Moose and Men" violates the CoC. The price I pay to keep the editors out; the price I pay for my own juvenile journalistic integrity, is to not be recognized for the work.
i.e. 'Quality - not - Quantity' . . . yes?
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 27, 2006 06:03 PM |
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BAAAAAA
Conan, I'm baffled. The whole idea behind qp's is to reward superior work. Take a look at The Gootch's consistent quality, and then take a look at his qp count. Personally I've always thought he was behind where he should be, and now you're just passing up some of the prime opportunities to make up for the deficiency.
'Nuf said. I've made my point and I'm begging out of this conversation now.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted March 27, 2006 06:48 PM |
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I'm a bit confused Consis. In fact, you've me at a loss for words. I can't even pretend to comprehend what you're referencing. Please make yourself clearer.
Peace, I think Pandora summed it up well on the first page of the thread. There is something of a silent compromise going on here and I'm not sure you're realizing it.
Does this project merit qps? Enough people seem to think so. Have I invested considerable time and effort into each installment? Sure I have.
But all of that is rendered moot because of the violations. If a mod gives me a qp then the whiny modhunters(who remind me of baby birds endlessly squawking while waiting for mommy to regurgitate her food into their whiny, baby bird mouths) get to have a field day with double standards, impressions of double standards, and grating, "What about me?" statements.
There is a precarious balance here. Please, just let the matter rest.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted March 27, 2006 08:05 PM |
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Sorry, Gootch
Quote:
Of Moose and Men violates the CoC. The price I pay to keep the editors out; the price I pay for my own juvenile journalistic integrity, is to not be recognized for the work.
I know, but that's not what Conan wrote:
Quote:
As for The_Gootch, well, if I gave him a QP for every time he showed off his writing skills, it wouldn't be fair, would it?
I mean, we did QP him enough for his writing abilities!
QPs are not issued for one's abilities but posts. Yes, you ought to give him a QP each time he "showed off his writing skill", and be glad that he decided to share it with us (instead of posting it elsewhere on the web).
What other abilities is he expected to perform in order to get another QP - juggling?
In fact, it's the mods who are violating the CoC here, by not rewarding what clearly belongs to top 2 per cent of this forum.
Penalize it if you have to (since when are mods afraid of "modhunters" anyway?), but recognize the quality as well. That way the posters wouldn't lose their bonuses.
In my opinion, the CoC needs an amendment dealing with art.
Needless to say, I think censoring is out of the question here.
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