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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 24, 2013 02:24 PM |
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Still, the Matthew verse applies when the one judging has worse sins than the ones being judged, is that really the case here?
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 02:34 PM |
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I thought that if the moderator said that we can have no discussion here and that all of us should make less offensive posts, there will be no discussion and we will make less offensive posts. Don't you want that, Elodin? Or maybe you seek for you-did-worse kind of flame? I'd want to bet you don't.
For me it's pointless to object mod's statements if you actually agree with them.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 24, 2013 02:43 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:46, 24 May 2013.
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Matthew 7:1-5 is not what it's about. Because Elodin does not ask people to tune it down, so you can't ask for him to tune it down first.
It's not about the hyperboles, what is personal or not in technicalities, using sarcasm or slang… It's not about WHAT YOU SAY it's about HOW YOU DON'T LISTEN to what other people say, because when it comes down to it, that's what pushes the limits of people's temper and results in otherwise productive debates turning into how not to violate CoC challenges.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 02:43 PM |
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Yes.
The mods cite "EXCESSIVE" use - this is countered by Elodin by pointing to the COMBINED use of SEVERAL posters.
It's basically him alone comparing with everyone else combined.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 03:30 PM |
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Elodin, we do not inform you of this (and there is no reason we should, don't you think?), but we have sent many warnings to certain users regarding their attitude towards your posts. So I do not think you can really call us biased at this point.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 03:46 PM |
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Quote:
Yes.
The mods cite "EXCESSIVE" use - this is countered by Elodin by pointing to the COMBINED use of SEVERAL posters.
It's basically him alone comparing with everyone else combined.
Actually what I was saying is I can point to several posters and show each of those posters constantly trashing religion, conservatives, ect.
If certain people continue to say that does not happen and it is mean ol' Elodin causing all the problems maybe I need to invest some of my precious time and make a list of quotes for several posters. Again, not that I think it would matter one bit. Heck I sold my business, I'm retired, I have a lot of time on my hands so I can certainly do that.
But at this point I'd really rather not focus on the past but focus on people's posting from this day forward and moderation from this day forward.
And hopefully Corribus will post with a clear and concise exposition of what he expects from everyone.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 08:21 PM |
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I think that his general post on page 135 and the PM you quoted don't leave any doubt about it - as if there HAD BEEN any doubt prior to this, mind you.
In my mind your "request" is actually pushing it - as is speaking for Corribus the way I do it.
To give you a clearer picture - if you look for disparaging comments from "others", try to find them phrased like this, "Looney Christian neo-fascists yet again deny gays their human rights by claiming them to be sinful according to the laws of their non-existing gods.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 25, 2013 04:34 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:35, 25 May 2013.
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@Elodin, and gradually morphing into @Everyone Else:
Elodin, it's pretty simple, really: Treat your fellow HC members with respect. This is all I ask.
This banal charade of feigning confusion over my expectations is wearisome. You know as well as everyone else on here that perfect behavior isn't expected or even possible. I am not out to silence or penalize everyone who calls an argument "idiotic" on any one occasion, and my record as a moderator I think is well in support of this conclusion. These kinds of momentary lapses in civility happen, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't succumb to them from time to time myself. (Although, in my defense, I have been known to publically apologize for it when I recognized later on that my behavior was particularly unmannerly.)
However: when there is a pattern of insulting language or a pattern of complaints from other users, I do feel the need to step in and remind a member that we do have a code of conduct here and that it is my job to ensure that, on average, posters stay on the right side of it. A warning from me about a poster's behavior is not meant to be a rebuke or a punitary action - I have perfectly good silencing and "red star penalty" buttons for that, buttons which I thankfully don't have to use very often. No, a warning is supposed to inform the recipient that it is my opinion that, for the good of the community, there is probably a more diplomatic way that they could express themselves. A warning is actually a recognition that the target is probably just a good poster who has slipped up. If I actually thought the poster was maliciously trying to cause trouble, I'd just silence or penalize them straight off.
Just so we're clear, Elodin, I don't think you're a bad or immoral person. I don't consider you a troublemaker, either. I think you are someone who is ardent about his beliefs, and in your eagerness to defend your beliefs you sometimes forget that there is another good person on the receiving end of what you're trying to say who also has feelings and who probably is just as ardent about his beliefs as you are. Any time that hot button issues like religion and politics are discussed, it is inevitable that people are going to lose their tempers and let their passions get the better of them, and this is far more likely in an internet forum where there are fewer cues from body language to help guide conversations and little if any social repercussions to a loosely guarded tongue.
My (thankless) task is to try to make sure those passions don't exceed a comfortable background level. This is going to require that I use my coach's whistle from time to time just to get everyone's attention. I try to spread that whistle around because I think EVERYONE needs it occasionally. This time you got the yellow card. Last time it was Zenofex - for insulting you, I'll remind you (again). The time before that it was Seraphim, probably for insulting religion, becauase that seems to be the only card in his deck. The time before that... well, you get the idea. It's actually been quite a long time since I issued you any warning at all, and in fact I've issued you a few QPs for some nice posts you've had. So this claim that I'm biased or continually singling you out or against Christians is, don't you think, a bit unfair? I know you're in a minority here as far as your beliefs are concerned, and it probably feels to you from time to time like you're cornered with the whole forum aiming to tear you to pieces (and for this, I can empathize with your need to resort to a lot of hair-pulling and groin-punching just to stay alive - maybe some of the other members here would do well to realize this as well), but I'm actually trying to be a neutral mediator. I'm not against you or anyone else. I'm actually here to help.
But to help you, you need to help me. So what I'm asking you - what I'm asking all of you - it to try to look objectively at the way you're posting and consider whether, independent of how everyone else posts, there isn't a more diplomatic way that you could expression your opinion. I think you'll find, if you're really honest with yourself, that EVERYONE here could stand to be a little more diplomatic.
This may be straying too far afield, but I would also ask you to stop for a second and consider how difficult my job is. Have you noticed that no matter who I issue a warning to, I am accused of being biased, having a secret agenda, holding a grudge against them, not being a "decent, centered individual", making "excessively authoritarian decisions" and so forth? When I recently warned Zenofex for calling Elodin a "pathological hypocrite", I got a string of complaints about my apparent bias against atheists and about my tendency to let the Christians run wild all over the place. Now when I warn Elodin, I get accused of being biassed against Christians while letting atheists throw about insults with impunity. In point of fact, there are plenty of insults from both sides! Mind, I don't really give a crap about being yelled at. It's part of the job. What would be nice would be getting some recognition once in a while that what I do here is completely voluntary, that I do the best job I can with - let's face it - a bloody difficult task, and that (I'll pause to pat my own back) I actually keep this place running pretty well while at the same time letting people for the most part say what they want to say on any topic they wish.
I'm probably going to make JollyJoker blush (or snarl) a bit when I commit the cardinal sin of sharing something he wrote in a PM to me a little while back, but he gave me four words that meant a lot to me: "I respect your moderation" - and this after I had censored one of his posts! I'm not out for constant thank-yous or anything, but I'll admit that it was a really nice thing to hear from someone who, I think it obvious, I don't always see eye to eye with. That kind of stuff makes a big difference. A younger friend of mine once asked me what I think about being a father and I remember replying that I think it's absolute torture, a thankless job that robs you of your youth, your wealth and your sanity on a daily basis. They looked at me with a mixture of amusement and horror and asked why the hell anyone would want such a thing. And I winked at them and said, "One day you'll have a little snowwad of your own and when they come up to you out of nowhere and give you a hug, and say, 'I love you you so much, daddy!', well, then you'll understand."
JJ's post was the only time in my over two years of being a moderator that anyone has EVER sent me a PM with a compliment about what I do here for this community. I'm not trying to nail myself on a cross here but maybe this puts things in perspective. Mvassilev also recently wrote me a PM, and, after clumsily trying to explain why he suddenly felt I was no longer worth replying to (something about me having no talent for philosophy or ethics), he told me that it was "obvious that {I} don't really like being a mod" - even going so far as to blame "the recent decline in the quality of {my} posts" on it. He also recommended I resign. (Damn, I guess I'm really into cardinal sins today - I guess once the flood gates are opened, water will flow....)
Ignoring the fact that mvassilev didn't bother to inquire whether there might be something else going on in my life that might be affecting my disposition - something anyone who actually gave a snow about me would do if they noticed an alleged change in my demeanor - he couldn't be more wrong about my feelings about moderating this place. True, I do find the job occasionally "clearly frustrating", but not for the reason he probably thinks. Yeah, it can a frustrating challenge to enforce a subjective body or behavioral rules (the CoC) over a group of very intelligent, highly opinionated, passionate people who are discussing complex, real-life topics, but I can deal with it. What frustrates me is the fact that none of you seem to realize how difficult this job actually is, and that you all could do a lot to help make this job easier.
Namely: trying your best to treat each other with respect and, when the inevitable happens and you do get a warning or reprimand, to stop and think about why before you rush to accuse me of being unfair and asking fatuous questions like "so we're not allowed to use any negative terminology ever, is that what the rule is now?"
Anyway, this was a lot more than I intended to write about this, and I see I've strayed far from the question that put my pen to paper, as it were - although maybe in the end it answered the question in an unintended way. But I wanted to add one more thing before I call it a... er... post. I started to tell you why mvassilev's assumptions regarding how I feel about moderating are wrong and I got side tracked by the frustrations of the job. But I actually like being a moderator here despite the frustrations. I like the challenge, for one thing. Believe it or not it has taught me a lot about management, a skill that is much better to learn here than in my real job, where I am starting to have to do this kind of thing in small increments. I think you all forget that this has been, and continues to be, a learning experience for me, too. But I think learning is one of the things I enjoy most, which is why I plan on never stopping, at least not until the day I die.
Yet more than the challenge, I like all of you. I've been a part of the HoMM community since I was in high school. God, that was a lifetime ago. Twenty years playing and loving this game and interacting with this uniquely fantastic community. No surprise, then, that I actually do genuinely care a lot about this community and about the people in it. I wouldn't do this thankless job for any other forum. Not on your snowing life. But here... Here I have a special emotional investment that I have nowhere else. That is the greatest reason why I like being a moderator.
When I first accepted this job I said that I would freely resign if I ever decide I no longer have the passion for it, if my time dwindles to the point where I can't do it any longer, or if the community ever decides I am not performing to an adequate standard. I meant it then and I mean it now. I'm not ready to take mvassilev's "advice" because I still have a passion for HOMM and I still care a lot about this place. But if I'm doing as bad a job as it would seem based on all the comments about bias, authoritarianism and so forth, you need only say the (collective) word and I'm gone.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2013 05:01 AM |
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I admit I was mistaken about whether you enjoy being a mod, and I'm glad to hear that I was wrong. I also don't have a problem with your policy towards insults.
The only issue I have is the mods (not just you) shutting down discussion in the Feedback thread and elsewhere from time to time. You just say "discussion over" and that's it. That is authoritarian and I strongly object to it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 25, 2013 06:02 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 06:02, 25 May 2013.
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Corribus,
I think overall you have done a very good job of moderation. Certainly better than previous moderator "regimes."
Previously the ruling was it is ok to call an idea idiotic because you are not saying the person is idiotic. Anyone can have an "idiotic" idea and yet not be an idiot.
Previously the ruling was it is ok to criticize an ideology as being irrational/delusional/whatever because doing so is not an attack on any person but an "attack" on an ideology.
One just could not say "You are irrational." "You are delusional." Ect.
Protecting ideas from negativity seems to pretty much shut down debates. The slightest negativity vaguely associated with an idea can be considered an offense.
Having a policy of "well, its ok to call an idea idiotic on occasion" is problematic to people who hold minority positions. The "majority," (for example, atheists,) can continually berate religion with negative invectives by simply "taking turns," which is what is going to happen under the way you say you are going to enforce things in my opinion. While the minority (theists for example) have to simply sit back and take the "abuse" without being allowed to "attack" the ideas of atheists as aggressively as they attack the ideas of theism.
This does not seem fair.
Debate is not only about ideas but about language and allowing the majority side the edge in the verbiage of debates means the majority side has been granted an advantage. Which is what some people seem to have sought and gained.
I would urge a return to the policy that it is ok to apply negative adjectives to ideas but not to a person.
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Revelation
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 25, 2013 08:28 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 08:35, 25 May 2013.
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It is not that you can not attach negativity to an idea, but how you phrase your negativity. Ie it is not what you say, it is how it is said. There are many ways of saying "I disagree with this idea" other then "This idea is ridiculous" (or idiotic, etc). It is not hard to see why somebody might take insult about somethings. For instance..
If I were to post "Anybody who believes in some bearded man in the sky is an idiot. Might as well say 'Santa did it'. The thought that the easter bunny is going to fix all their problems is more intelligent then some idiot thinking that this imaginary figure can be prayed to and it intervene" a lot of Christians could take that as an insult. As I am say they are idiots.
Everybody KNOWS I respect most religions. I've often come to the defense of Christianity, despite not being a Christian. However, I also understand the other side as well. The difference between me and Corribus, however, is I threw my hands up in disgust and walked away. My illness and the constant fact that no matter what I did or how I did it I was wrong got to me. Thus my signature. I fully agree with Corribus, and hope he now has a different perspective of me.
To sum the above up... You are an intelligent poster, I suspect you would have no problems rewording your points. Yet you don't, and seem not to want to bother. So we have to ask why this is. It is definitely not lack of intelligence. You do have the ability to do it, so why not do so?
I will leave with just one thought. "An eye for an eye just leaves everybody blind."
____________
Message received.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 25, 2013 09:04 AM |
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Quote:
HoMM fans are the best fans on the internet, OK?
I completely agree with this one!
@Corribus,
As a reader of the interesting for me subjects in OSM and participator in discussions I admire your logic and ability to explain your view points.
I think the core of your last post is not only the word "respect",but the advice to be more diplomatic to one another.
I can see and learn from the diplomatic behaviour of other members here,as well as in practising it myself.
About the moderating part-from my experience in sending HCMs to moderators I can say this-I may not always like the answer I get,but clearly all of them have been answered and not a single one ignored,which I see as a form of respect to me.
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 25, 2013 10:19 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 10:21, 25 May 2013.
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Quote:
To sum the above up... You are an intelligent poster, I suspect you would have no problems rewording your points. Yet you don't, and seem not to want to bother. So we have to ask why this is. It is definitely not lack of intelligence. You do have the ability to do it, so why not do so?
I will leave with just one thought. "An eye for an eye just leaves everybody blind."
Simply put, there are people who want me banned and who will claim I being offensive no matter what I post. Someone complained about my post about free will that was in response to Zen's claiming God can't be all powerful unless he directly controls everything as been offensive and which resulted in my warning. I do not see how my post defining free will is offensive to anyone. If anyone is offended by anything in that post they simply have a chip on their shoulder or are looking for some reason to get someone penalized-in my opinion.
Yeah, I could make posts like," I believe, that is, I think it is possible that it might be true, though I could certainly be incorrect, that the sky is blue, but, again, I could be wrong, and quite probably am. Heck, you tell me what color the sky is and we'll go with that." But I don't think anybody who is sending HMs about mean ol' Elodin posts that way and it is not a style conclusive to debates.
Anyways, I have to live by the decrees of moderation and I'll do my best to do so. I'm,sadly, just going to have to start crying about the posts of others apparently.
Anyhow, this is my last post about this matter.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 25, 2013 12:07 PM |
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It's incredibly simple - there are other Christians and conservatives in this forum as well but none of them manages to get on other people's nerves (that is, on the nerves of "atheists" and "liberals") as frequently and successfully as you. In fact, the majority of us "liberal atheists" have no issues talking with people like Markkur on the same topic and actually have a decent discussion with neither side resorting to unpleasant adjectives. I myself have had very good conversations with intelligent, educated and level-headed religious people over the years and even though I hadn't agreed with them on some points, I've had no issues respecting their position. My opinion about your argumentation isn't very high but the problem is not with it but with your business-as-usual practice to put labels which sound like curse words on everyone who doesn't agree with you. People disregard that or turn a blind eye once, twice, several times but eventually start giving a damn and returning the salvo. That's normal. If you drop this practice, the "opposition" will drop it too (at least the sensible individuals and I think most of us here fall into that category) and everyone will be happy - Corribus the most. Deal?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2013 01:33 PM |
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Maybe as a comment on why I felt the urge to tell Corribus that I would respect his moderation ...
Shameless bootlicking to get on his good side - had nothing to do with it, actually. 
No, I just like to watch the odd ballgame - soccer - once in a while, and, yeah, what I can't stand are games, where players (and coaches)constantly complain about ref decisions ...
Now, once you draw the conclusion that this here is comparable with a ballgame, Corribus being the ref, in so many ways, things are falling into place more or less automatically.
Ref calls often depend on the general situation, and it may easily happen, that the same foul that got a simple whistle blow in the beginning will be awarded a yellow card penalty later, when the game roughs up, which may seem unfair in comparison, but is more or less the players's fault for roughing the game up...
Anyway. I think, it should be obvious what is expected here - tooth and nail is for street fight. People are supposed to play fair, which means, negativity should come politely and well-reasoned.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 25, 2013 01:44 PM |
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I think Corribus has grew as the OSM moderator and is now doing a fine job, not perfect (no one ever will) but probably better than I could do or anyone else here and since I would never mod here as I have "worked" at other places; his efforts have been very admirable to me. Those same efforts have made it possible for me to care to post again, when before, any time I posted "pot-shots or flames" followed. I've not had that happen for quite a while.
I know how difficult it is to defend positions that "at times" can be polar-opposite of your own stance, but Corribus has done very well for some time now and as a matter of fact I've been impressed with his patience. I've seen many explanation-posts the last year and those...take time, energy and a great deal of caring.
Cheers Corribus
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2013 08:14 PM |
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@ Elodin
Quote:
Simply put, there are people who want me banned and who will claim I being offensive no matter what I post.
Ok, I wanted to send you a PM - but who cares about those.
Let me just make it clear, that I do NOT want you to be banned or silenced. I also did NOT send any PMs to that or any other purpose.
How "enlightened" a society is, depends on how it deals with its minorities, and on this board you are a minority. Banning people because they may see things differently than the majority would be a reason for me to leave the community, and I cannot, by any stretch of imagination, see how people like Cor, Mytical, Doom and the others would ban you, just to get rid of a poster that may or may not inconvenience them once in a while.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted May 25, 2013 10:45 PM |
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I have been one of the worst posters this place has seen at times and Elodin, you are nowhere near as bad as I have been so don't worry yourself too much. I know I may disagree with you on pretty much anything but by no means do I or anybody else for that matter want you to go or be banned. You do contribute a fair bit. The problem is that sometimes, when talking to you, it's like talking to a brick wall, or at least that's how it seems when I try to talk to you. Not that that is necessarily a big problem but you're part of a community and I think you just need to listen a little bit more and maybe curb the way you say things a little. Just try to be nicer. If you can do that then you will become an even better poster and be remembered for a long time.
As for you, Fred, stop being dramatic. Last post on HC? What, you want attention or something? I've seen some of your posts and sometimes you just ask for it I swear.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 26, 2013 05:32 AM |
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Fred.
Derp derp derp, that was really out of character and aggressive, wow. >.>(Rant removed)
As for the Elodin - JJ conspiracy, JJ has been warned (repeatedly) and silenced by Cor much more recently than Elodin (who has been warned here (officially) once in the past few months and silenced sometime last year...) Why? Because JJ was going out of his way to be belligerent and overly aggressive in his posting habits, and attacked Elodin constantly. So no, there are no "clear signs of favoritism" going on here, it's just that Elodin is posting more than JJ in a more heated fashion. And Fred? This warning was a decision discussed by the entire mod squad, so even if Cor was biased (not likely) it wouldn't have mattered.
So no, if your post is modified it doesn't prove anything. Well, it proves that Cor or whoever decides to delete it can only handle so much wrong in their daily diet of OSM chit-chat. Oh, and that they only deal with so much childishness (that last note of yours? veeeeeeeery mature).
@ Drak: The one calling you a troll was likely messing with you. And was not a Mod.
@ Will: OH MY GOD, FRED'S THE NEW ACU. 
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 26, 2013 09:27 AM |
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Just for clarification: I've been warned, yes, and of course I've been edited and deleted a couple of times, but never been silenced.
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