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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2013 10:56 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 10:57, 27 May 2013.
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Quote:
Says who? You and your elitist buddies? Unless a moderator complains to me about my posts I'll never retract anything.
I'd advise you not to get into a "labeling" contest with them. They are deliberately engaging in provocation but you'll be the one likely to be on the short end of the moderator gavel. Based on experience.
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Revelation
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 27, 2013 10:58 AM |
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I will try not to enter their vicious circles anymore, it brings no good to me and I have no desire to talk to such people.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 27, 2013 12:23 PM |
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Elodin, only a page ago you were saying the OSM moderation was doing a great job and know you say they are biased. It's you who's constantly provocating people, it's you who got the letter, and now, it's again YOU who is incapable of digesting it and trying to make every other poster's life hell. It won't work.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 12:32 PM |
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Quote:
- I am called Stalin
He meant that you switch the topics from Stalin to Jesus, not that you're Stalin.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2013 12:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
- I am called Stalin
He meant that you switch the topics from Stalin to Jesus, not that you're Stalin.
No, I don't think so. He said I'm a wolf and a "hypocrite who changes from Stalin to Jesus from one thread to another." Thus he said I'm a hypocrit changing from Stalin to Jesus from thread to thread. That is highly provocative speech.
Quote:
Emm, lol? The wolf is now a goat again? I am too lazy to find where he told being ok with thousand of innocent muslims killed by drones-and many other issues-, and now takes defense only because I told is about religion. The last person I am willing to discuss such things is with an hypocrite who changes from Stalin to Jesus from one thread to another, sorry.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 03:23 PM |
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Okay, just for the heck of it I object against Elodin's attitude and way of discussion in the Muslim thread:
I think, I made it quite clear, that in the kind of secular society we have in Western Europe and the USA, the main problem is the fact that the morals and values of a religion may clash with the constitution and the individual rights:
Quote:
But that's only on the surface, because people are not FREELY choosing; instead children are already educated from the beginning - and this a bad thing where the religious education clashes with the general rights of society: if man and woman are secularly equal, but religion teaches that a wife has to obey her husband, then that teaching is ... unconstitutional.
A solution for this was sketched:
Quote:
There may not be a democratic, constitutional way to change this, but we can make laws that force immigrants to learn the language and to send their children to a public school, where the quality of the classes should teach the children alternatives to what they learn from their parents, when it comes to stone age morals [added]that are rooted in the Stone Age; this is true for all religions, mind you, not only for the muslimic one [/added].
We must simply assimilate them by teaching them OUR values, so SCHOOLS become elementary and extremely important, which is where a lot more money should flow.
Now, Elodin starts a trivial and useless confrontation by quoting only the last sentence and firing a salvo:
Quote:
Which values are those, JJ? Not every non-Muslim in Germany shares the same values. I hate to think of school children being indoctrinated into a value system set in place by the state and forbidding parents to teach their own children their values. That is not anything approaching freedom in my opinion. In fact, in my opinion, not only is that an extreme lack of tolerance such a system leads to less and less freedom in all areas of our lives. If the state can dictate what we are to think about moral issues it can essentially brainwash us in every category of our thoughts.
It would seem obvious, that this is answering to something that hasn't been said. If we look at the first quoted paragraph, it should be fairly clear to everyone that the "values" Elodin asks after rhetorically are simple THE CONSTITUTION AND THE HUMAN RIGHTS there, for example that all people have equal rights, independently of their gender, and it would seem deliberately and trivially confrontational to call "teaching children about the constitution and the rights they have as members of a specific society and independently from what religion says" intolerant and dictatorial.
It would seem to me that Elodin also tries willfully and deliberately to denounce posts as objectable.
No matter how the moderation sees this, I think the time has come to declare that Elodin has managed to drop so deeply below the level of what I like to think of as reason I'm personally expecting from someone I communicate with, that any further communication makes as much sense as trying to send or receive signals to or from the unobservable part of the universe.
Therefore I can just as well stop trying, and that's what I will do.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2013 05:57 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 18:17, 27 May 2013.
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@JJ
My post in no way insulted you nor any group of people, unlike your several deeply offensive and highly provocative posts condemning all religions as having stone age morals less "evolved" morals than "the rest of society." My objection was to the State teaching morals and to your general insults of the morals of people of all religions as being "stone age."
I did address your post, and stated what my objections were and why and did so in a civil manner.
To sum up the argument I offered:
Suggesting that all religions have stone age morals and that these morals need to be replaced by the state teaching morals to the children is highly offensive. Moreover, I pointed out not all non-secular members of society have the same morals to it would be problematic to "[teach] them OUR values" as there IS no set of morals all society member hold, secular or non secular.
It is my opinion the State education should focus on academia, not on replacing "stone age morals" taught by religious people to their children. The State indoctrinating children into a moral code that it wishes children to hold can is dangerous as children are indoctrinated into the State's way of thinking and certainly leads to hostility between the parents of the children and the State.
All cultures do not have to be "assimilated," by replacing their moral values. There should be room in society for different cultures--tolerance.
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If we call this belligerently a "war", then it is fought in our public schools. There may not be a democratic, constitutional way to change this, but we can make laws that force immigrants to learn the language and to send their children to a public school, where the quality of the classes should teach the children alternatives to what they learn from their parents, when it comes to stone age morals [added]that are rooted in the Stone Age; this is true for all religions, mind you, not only for the muslimic one [/added].
We must simply assimilate them by teaching them OUR values, so SCHOOLS become elementary and extremely important, which is where a lot more money should flow.
Quote:
It would seem to me that Elodin also tries willfully and deliberately to denounce posts as objectable.
No, I only "tagged" posts to be looked at for direct personals insults at me or for provocative insults of religion. The only thing I am "trying" to do is to help build a place where everyone can express their viewpoints without being personally attacked or having the groups they identify with trashed. I think the moderators said that is what they want. Religious people should not be treated as second class citizens.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 27, 2013 11:47 PM |
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Quote:
I have silenced or issued warnings to at least six people in the last month for clear violations of the code of conduct in the OSM alone
Six instances of required moderator action sounds very odd considering the low activity. Only few members are posting and only in a few threads and it's the same stuff as earlier anyway. Is this month representative for previous time periods, and if so, how long does the problem go back and what is your general impression of the cause of this?
What in your impression would have happened had no moderation occurred, roughly speaking?
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Living time backwards
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 29, 2013 12:12 PM |
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While there have been other religion bashing posts in the "Muslim" thread since my last feedback I must strongly object to to "#1" and "#2" of JJ's latest post.
Quote:
Couple of questions to think about:
The burqa is a masking device designed to prohibit anyone seeing the face of the wearer - supposedly to avoid rousing sexual desire with men (that's what the koran says). We DO know, though, from millennia of experience that women CAN show their face without being raped immediately. So a couple of questions to think about:
1) Can we even allow muslim men in our liberal societies when they have to mask the women in order to not assault and rape them?
2) Or would we have to make the burqa mandatory for all women, IF we allow muslim men into our society, to avoid them assaulting and raping our half-naked women?
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Revelation
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 01, 2013 03:50 PM |
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OSM is for OSM-related feedback only. This isn't the Jerry Springer show.
Thread cleaned.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted June 01, 2013 05:07 PM |
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HCM a mod.
Why would you post this in the OSM feedback thread where the problem you're describing has nothing to do with the threads/posts in the OSM?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 01, 2013 06:00 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:00, 04 Jun 2013.
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Mods have discussed the matter of Fred. Fred has been silenced for one week for continued infractions of the Code of Conduct, despite numerous warnings to change his behavior. Such infractions include (copied from Code of Conduct, recent violations in red):
1) NO insults, abuse, racism or sexism.
Insult is a remark that undermines another person. A simple way to avoid insulting people is to discuss their actions and opinions rather than their personality. For example: instead of saying who they are ("you suck" or "you are an idiot") say what you think about their opinions/actions and why ("Your post about me is wrong because I never said that heroes 4 is a bad game" or "I disagree with your opinion because centaurs have more hit points than gnolls"). This simple rephrasing strategy can resolve many conflicts and fights before they even happen, both online and in life.
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color. Sexism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their gender or sexual orientation.
4) NO spam, junk posts, thread killing, flooding or flaming.
Junk post is a post that fails to address the topic of discussion and fails to provide intellectual or humorous stimulation, or put simply: off topic, not interesting, not funny. Thread killing is making off-topic comments in a thread in a way that discourages other posters from continuing their serious discussion. Flooding is creating several threads in a short amount of time. Spam is creating several replies that contain one or two sentences in a short amount of time. Junk posts, thread killing and spam are allowed in the Volcanic Wastelands forum (see Volcanic Wastelands rules here). Creating a second username in order to surpass the daily post limit or to spam/flood is prohibited.
Threads abusing any glitches found in HC will be penalized, if you spot a glitch please report it in the Turban Tribunal. Threads which are created simply to be an eyesore or cause significant lag for members trying to view them will be penalized. This includes - massive quoting, filling the posting box with smilies / bb code, and stretching posts with either long strings of text or enormous photos.
6) NO provocation or aggravation.
Provocation is unfriendly behavior that causes anger or resentment from others. Aggravation is causing, continuing or increasing irritation or trouble. This includes being a detriment to the peacekeeping of the forums.Each member is solely responsible for their own conduct - no amount of provocation or aggravation from someone else will justify the action of breaking the rules. Instead of responding to a member who has offended you, alert a moderator about this situation and let them deal with it, keeping you out of trouble.
Fred has expressed disagreement that he has violated these rules but the mods are unanimous in their contention that he has.
I wish to add here that the mods - including myself - are not "against" Fred. Rather, the mods are "for" peace and good will. The one can easily been mistaken for the other if single individuals are disrupting the forum's harmony. If Fred feels singled out, it is because he has singled himself out by his behavior. Nevertheless, I wish to tell Fred that recently I have unfairly and unrightly let my frustration at his behavior and the way he has treated me color the tone with which I have doled out punishments and reprimands. I discovered this as I was recently reviewing my history moderating Fred's posts. I apologize for this and will strive to be more neutral about the manner in which I issue warnings to Fred in the future. The only thing I ask in return for this effort is for Fred to make an effort as well to conduct himself with a higher degree of respect for this community and the moderators that are a part of it. This will, I think, mutually benefit everyone.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 02, 2013 05:53 AM |
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I must strongly object to Sal's post on page 30. Specifically to the highlighted phrase.
Quote:
I don't think it is a racist behavior, there is an vast chinese and turkish immigration which everyone seems to integrate perfectly, the problem is mostly religion vs state. I am not religious (not exactly atheist neither) so I can't pronounce on the matter, but I can illustrate for you how I see it: the radical muslim militants have same behavior in real life as Elodin in HC, plus the physical push-over and not censured insults. Now set your own conclusions, not matter what they are, you will agree that a lot of trouble can emerge from such conflicts.
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Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 02, 2013 06:00 AM |
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It wasn't an insult. Just a hint about how troubles can become very visible when some people refuse to consider other's ideas.
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Era II mods and utilities
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted June 02, 2013 11:36 AM |
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I think artu is posting offtopics comments in the muslim thread,page 30.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 02, 2013 11:40 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:50, 02 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
It is not that you can not attach negativity to an idea, but how you phrase your negativity. Ie it is not what you say, it is how it is said. There are many ways of saying "I disagree with this idea" other then "This idea is ridiculous" (or idiotic, etc). It is not hard to see why somebody might take insult about somethings. For instance..
Artu's latest post in the Muslim thread is rather full of insulting language about my beliefs.
Quote:
For the 100th time, there is no God because there is no valid reason or any necessity to assume one. Scientists say they CAN explain the universe coming into existence within limits of scientific knowledge. You, on the other hand, believe in a magical creature that is the equivalent of unicorns or genies. Your kind of God is especially anthropomorphic and clearly based on mythology. You claim universe can't begin by itself (when today, physicists whose job is to study that, strongly say otherwise) and yet although you don't believe a physical entity, dimensions of time and space can't happen out of nowhere, you have no problem imagining a creature with a personality that comes out of nowhere. The funniest part is, your so called spiritual journey is totally based on cultural heritage and if you had been born in India instead of Texas, you would be defending Krishna the way you defend Jesus now with the same blind conviction.
Put aside all of that, when it comes to truth seeking, I CAN change my mind if someone comes up with a convincing argument about God. Yet, the concept is so primitive and childish, the chances are overwhelmingly slim. You however, are guaranteed to never change your mind because Your position is locked by your dogma: You are not ALLOWED to commit the sin of thinking there is no God. Your religion tells you, that is the devil whispering in your ear. That's right, in your "truth seeking" religion some ideas are labeled from the beginning as evil, even to consider them is a crime. What a free thinking journey to look upon!
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 02, 2013 11:50 AM |
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Quote:
I think artu is posting offtopics comments in the muslim thread,page 30.
It's a brief answer to a comment, I'm not going on and on about something off topic and that's allowed.
@Elodin
What insult? You can't even say that's wrong. Tell me the qualitative difference between the story of Virgin Birth and the story of Perseus or Gilgamesh, how one is myth and the other is not? One is not a myth, because you believe so... Very objective categorization.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted June 02, 2013 12:05 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 12:06, 02 Jun 2013.
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In all honesty, I don't think I've seen something similar to this thread on any other forum I've visited.
A place where people continously call each other out and try and get mods to act on it, it looks like children jumping up and down trying to get their teacher's attention.
Why the need to have everything in public? Of all the boards the OSM has the most active moderation, we even have mods that take active part in the discussions themselves, they WILL read, and if it breaks the CoC they will act upon it.
If despite all of this there are still posts that remain unseen by the moderators, a simple HCM will have the exact same functionality as the report buttons that are essential on more modern forums. This will avoid firing up even more conflicts over petty issues.
I feel like 90% of the moderators' work is cleaning up "feedback".
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 02, 2013 12:31 PM |
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Quote:
In all honesty, I don't think I've seen something similar to this thread on any other forum I've visited.
A place where people continously call each other out and try and get mods to act on it, it looks like children jumping up and down trying to get their teacher's attention.
Why did I post objections to what some others have posted? Simple. Not everyone is allowed the same freedom of expression.
And I am always portrayed as mean ol' Elodin who constantly insults others (though I only critique ideas) by posters who constantly insult me and insult things I believe while crying whenever I post anything that critiques their beliefs with language they use.
If everyone were allowed to use the same verbiage the same way about every idea you'd not hear a peep out of me. Of course I think direct personal insults should not be allowed.
There are certainly other objectionable things that were posted that I did not bother "reporting" because I don't like "crying" about what someone said but I'm left with no choice but to point out some of the things to ward off the false allegations about me.
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Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 02, 2013 12:41 PM |
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The thing is: if one says something about me which I don't like, I may choose between listening or consider him being subjective then ignore. If 10 say same thing, I can choose between take a break and think about, or remain a jerk and ignore. You, on the other side, desperately invented a third option, which exempts you of first two: report to moderator then ignore.
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