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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted August 31, 2008 02:54 PM |
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Don't you have other things to worry about like if you are growing hair on your chest and becoming a man than just worrying about a WARNINGp??! And that's just what it is, a warning. Not a penalty. Seriously. People really need to chill out at times.
If you think a warning is bad then you all need to stop taking this so seriously. It is only a forum after all, right? I doubt this will affect your life and ruin your future.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 31, 2008 02:56 PM |
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Will, chill out.
Your walking on thin ice.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted August 31, 2008 03:03 PM |
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Actually ,you wrong will,when Baklva says that its not that he trembles from warnings,he just understood he crussed a line?
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types in obscure english
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted August 31, 2008 03:05 PM |
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Quote:
People really need to chill out at times.
People should actually stop telling others to chill out when the subject is kinda important. 
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted August 31, 2008 03:58 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 16:18, 31 Aug 2008.
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William: Baklava has every right to express his opinion here. If a member is upset about something, it as always better to see them voice it than simply "take their ball and go home". Your posting here that he needs to "Chill Out" is not at all helpful.
As Angelito already noted, the situation in the OSM has been the hot topic in HQ lately, and as well I've spent along time discussing it with Valeriy - so I don't want anyone to think that this is being ignored.
Seraphim has certainly been a large issue, his posting has been over the line - I agree with Baklava that it should not have been let go. But this is every bit as much my fault as Angelito's.
That said, I would ask that some of you who are upset at Angelito try to look at it from his side. I understand that some of you perceive him to only care about matters that affect him - but its not a fair perception. It is definitely difficult to understand the subtext to what people are saying when you do not know the realities of where the person saying it is coming from.
Angelito has had to deal with all of the OSM pretty much by himself, and that's a lot to deal with....He is also the one who participates with you guys in OSM discussions while I rarely ever will.
It is also thanks to him that you guys have a lot of the threads going that you've enjoyed, because my reaction is to delete it. I do not believe that enough of the people posting in the more 'sensitive' threads are anywhere near the maturity one needs to be to engage in these types of topics. It is because I became so sick of reading the OSM, and seeing posts that I believe have no business being here - that I simply stopped reading. So if anyone has been the bad mod here, its me - not Angelito.
I also believe that HC should be absolutely neutral ground, so that no matter what anyone is living with in the real world, they can come here and not have to do deal with it if they don't want to. No one should come here and have to be offended and disgusted by things being said against who they are, be it their nationality, religious beliefs, sexual preference...
You can all expect to see changes in the way things are handled in the future, more QP for good and more -QP for bad.
Will write more later regarding what Baklava has said.
PS: The Gootch - that uh oh nearly made me spit out my coffee
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 01, 2008 01:47 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:49, 01 Sep 2008.
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Ok..weekend is over, and as stated on friday, I have checked all the important OSM threads we had this year ("Independance of Kosovo?", "Serbian deeds", "All muslims are terrorists", "I gave up in believing in God", "60 years to Israel") and some other threads who weren't as "hot" as those mentioned.
I have mostly checked those threads to find conversations between Seraphim and baklava or Seraphim's post in general, as baklava made a complaint about the unfair treatment from me (or other Mods) towards him and the missing treatment vs Seraphim.
I only checked the last 30 pages of the big "I gave up believing in God" thread, because it is just too much to handle (started from page 100).
As far as I could see, the most problems occured in those 2 "nationalistic" threads refering to Kosovo and Serbia.
Seraphim recieved a warning for personal insult in the Kosovo thread here
But as stated in this thread already and after I checked all these political threads again now, I really have problems to find evidence for "spreading national hate" in Seraphim's posts. I repeat myself, but it may be due to my lack of knowledge of slavic history. But both sides (serbians and kosovars) state "their" point of view in these threads, and I will surely NOT go and visit a library to see who stated facts and who told nonsense. This is not my job, and I hope you all understand. I don't wanna deny there is some provocation in Seraphim's post (I found 2 posts who crossed the line after he already recieved a warning and handed out a penalty today. One is here, and the other one in the "Serbian deeds" thread here.), but as already stated earlier, the provocation baklava has made is just much more obvious (easier to see) for me and for others.
Examples:
last post here, where he called him a kid. Even though he may be under 18, this for sure just for provocation purposes.
On the "Serbian deeds" thread, Seraphim posted this line:Quote:
...so get your pro-serb sentences to your lands.
Arguable...
The answer of baklava:Quote:
I don't know how Albanian forums function, but here people have the right to state their opinion. And an ignorant 17-year-old chauvinist certainly will not tell me what to do. No offense ^^
Not even close to argue about in my eyes. This is a direct personal insult, and it was NOT penalized that time. Any opinions about that?
So as I stated earlier, often "veterans" here didn't recieve a penalty even though it should have been handed out of course if following the CoC.
The thread "Serbian deeds" is a "..ridiculous breach of CoC..." in the opinion of baklava that time. I see a thread opened by Seraphim filled with sources (wikipedia) and some pics. If all of this is true or not can't be judged by me, if the thread is needed is arguable of course (but this counts for most of the OSM threads lately.. ), but a ridiculous breach of CoC? Why? It really seems I fail to see all this "national hatred" lines those threads are filled with. Could please someone point them out, especially in this Serbian deeds thread, and maybe in other posts made by Seraphim, so I finally get a picture how those thinsg look alike and maybe I can recognize them earlier in the future.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 01:56 PM |
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uhmm.. Angelito.. hope you don't plan to give penalties for posts made a year ago. because paremia lex retro non agit. If it hasn't been penalized back then, it should be left in peace imho. Even if some of the posts in the serbian topics were mildly offensive.. How about a new rule, NO EXCEPTIONS FROM CoC, I mean every time someone gets offensive and breaks the CoC he gets penalized, no matter how famous he is here and how many QPs he managed to get. In the same manner, everyone who posts a good topic or a good post should get a QP.
It would be great if you mods didn't overdo it, though.. I think the "respect" system of HC is great, but having too many admirable and priseworthy guys would be kinda stupid, the QPs would become of much less significance than they are now.. Also, too many penalties, especially in the "offensive" area is a bad idea, because whether something is offensive or isn't is often a matter of taste. We really don't want to hinder the freedom of speech here, do we?
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 01, 2008 03:13 PM |
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He does have a point though.
If he will punish Seraphim,he must punish and panalise Every CoC Breach Made in the past and was overlooked due to one reason or another?
Should be fair,would be fair,althhough unnice to meny memmbers who nearly got away from panalising.
Including myself
I think that you should atleast either panalise everything old,either start a new page.
Couse this seems unfair.
I hope i dont offend no one,im just stating my personal view on the metter at hand.
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types in obscure english
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 01, 2008 03:36 PM |
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You really handed him a penalty?
No, wait, two penalties?
Well, uhm, that was surprising. Ok, I think it's fair then.
Please note that the post where I said "kid" was meant to actually end the conflict between me and Seraphim. I didn't use "kid" there for demeaning purposes. I use "kid" a lot, anyway.
And it's ok if you want to penalize me for the "ignorant 17-year old chauvinist" part. Lost my temper there. It was indeed a breach of CoC in its own right, though it was my opinion at the time (cause a lot of information Seraphim gave were incorrect, but he didn't accept any other, and his own opinions were rather chauvinist as far as I could see).
Anyway, now iz okay I guess 
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 01, 2008 03:48 PM |
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Quote:
(cause a lot of information Seraphim gave were incorrect, but he didn't accept any other, and his own opinions were rather chauvinist as far as I could see).
what,like almost everyone who posts in OSM?
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types in obscure english
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 01, 2008 03:56 PM |
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Maybe, but they're able to debate it normally. Well, relatively normally, at least.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 04:05 PM |
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While I can understand that some people might look at it as giving penalties too long after the fact, in this situation I feel that Angelito is absolutely justified. If it were a case where the issue was long dead, and the penalty came out of nowhere it would be one thing, but this situation has gone on for a while - and is still current.
Quote:
How about a new rule, NO EXCEPTIONS FROM CoC, I mean every time someone gets offensive and breaks the CoC he gets penalized, no matter how famous he is here and how many QPs he managed to get
This is actually not a "new rule", but to remind you - the moderators here are actually human, not robots programmed to instacall any infraction. Sometimes things are missed, and we do make mistakes. All we can do is try to rectify them, and apologize when we make them.
With regards to your insinuation that this is an example of favouritism, I don't follow your logic at all. The member who was warned had far more red stars than the one who was not.
Quote:
Also, too many penalties, especially in the "offensive" area is a bad idea, because whether something is offensive or isn't is often a matter of taste. We really don't want to hinder the freedom of speech here, do we?
While you have a point that what is or isn't offensive will certainly depend on the person, how would you expect a moderator to judge that? If a post is made that we do not understand and therefore do not find it offensive, but several members speak up saying they are offended by it - are we to tell them that they've no right to how they feel? Or tell them that because we aren't offended their feelings aren't valid?
That simply would not work. What we do have are rules to follow, rules prohibiting insults and provocation. That is what we have to maintain. Unfortunately sometimes we do not act quick enough and things get out of hand. For us to say, "well we've let it go this long, I guess we have to allow it now" would be us utterly failing in the job we're supposed to be doing here.
Regarding "freedom of speech", I think there are a lot of ways to look at that. If we were allow people absolute freedom of speech then this board could very quickly become a place laden with hate speech. We've seen it here often enough how hot the tempers get between different cultures/religions etc. If you take a look at how young some of our members are here, you should understand that we also need to mind that a lot of the topics that come up are really not suited to their level of maturity. If you look at some of their posts you'd see that this is true...
Our job is basically to maintain the peace at the forums, and the best way we can do that is in ensuring that everyone who comes here feels welcomed and secure in that they should be able to post their opinions without being constantly attacked.
So to sum up my already too long post, I am behind Angelito 100%. It would have been pretty easy to imagine that Angelito could be offended by baklava's post, and feel no real desire to look further into his complaint - but he went out of his way to go over everything that has been said and try to act in a way that was fair.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 01, 2008 04:20 PM |
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Incase you havent understood my post,i agreed with angelito,but i failed to see the panalitys given only to seraphim.
IMO he the mods should panalise every past Breach of CoC including my own,regardless of vets or not. and no favoritsm
but due to the factthat thats nearly imposible becouse we all
most of us,have Real lifes and Bigger obligations it is best Not to panalise him,but in due future,open a fresh start.
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types in obscure english
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 04:29 PM |
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In this case, Angelito was looking into a particular situation, not just scouring OSM for penalties. Baklava's was not the first complaint about Seraphim's posts.
I don't think there is any issue regarding who is a veteran here and who is not.
With regards to a fresh start, I agree that it's in order for everyone. The overall tone of the OSM has been particularly ... unpleasant... It would be great if we could all make an effort in tunring it back into something that everyone can enjoy participating in.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 04:42 PM |
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Quote:
With regards to your insinuation that this is an example of favouritism, I don't follow your logic at all. The member who was warned had far more red stars than the one who was not.
You got it wrong Pan, I did not try to insinuate anything. It's normal EVERYWHERE that people well-known by the community are treated differently than a random person who just registered and already broken the rules. Personally I think you're doing all a good job - because you're not too strict. On many old forums, people simply turn robots - they are disregardful, or even aggresive towards newbies, and sternly pinpoint every stupid mistake a user makes. HC is different. There is place for everything here.
What I meant was that sometimes pretty big violations - or pretty nice posts (QP worthy) are omitted. Well, you're right, you're not robots. "report post" button would help you a lot, I think.
Quote:
If you take a look at how young some of our members are here, you should understand that we also need to mind that a lot of the topics that come up are really not suited to their level of maturity. If you look at some of their posts you'd see that this is true...
That is something I understand very well Pan - I've been a moderator on four forums in my life.  And two of them were as big as the HC.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 04:58 PM |
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Ah, I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. Thanks for clarifying
The main problem I have with moderating here (OSM, not HC in general) is that things tend to get out of control quickly, and we get very little feedback from members about it. I mean, sure when they think a QP is in order, or a penalty deserved, then people will sometimes say something. But as a general rule when it comes to how the forum should actually be handled, we hear very little from people.
It would be nice if more people who feel that something is wrong speak up about it, so that we can try to deal with it and improve.
In example, I've seen some little comments here and there about how few QP's are awarded in the OSM - but not here, they're offtopic shots made in the VW...
Its very difficult to get a read on what people actually want from us here, it'd be really helpful if more people spoke up about what they think.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 01, 2008 05:09 PM |
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well OSM is becomunign dangerouse by the day,one cannot say opinion without annoying someone,and cannot defend hes point either.
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types in obscure english
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 05:18 PM |
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I agree with whomever said that the Other Side lacks QPs and -QPs. Somehow, I got the impression that the Other Side was completely unmoderated for the past 2-3 months.
Nevertheless, I disgaree with Anti's last post. If you post your views, expect them to be discussed, and don't be afraid to defend your viewpoint.
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Eccentric Opinion
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 05:24 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 17:26, 01 Sep 2008.
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I don't agree - the problem isn't that people can't discuss whatever they'd like - the problem is in the way people have chosen to discuss things.
The general rule is to discuss the topic, and address the points made - NOT to attack the person saying them.
It accomplishes nothing to insult some one's intelligence when they say something you do not agree with. What could prove to be helpful, is if you were to address the problem you had with what they said - and offer your own opinion on what they said.
Too often here, when someone sees something that bothers them, they react in anger and say something that does not fall into the category of civilized debate.
In the "glory days" of the OSM, there were people who were absolute opposites in their beliefs calmly discussing their own opinions without every taking cheap, immature shots at the person they disagreed with.
In my opinion its this that has contributed the most to the degradation of these forums.
As much as I hate to sound like a quote war supporter - at least when those guys are debating - they are actually addressing the points that the other made. Sure, half the time it seems like while they are addressing what was said they aren't actually listening to it ( ) but at least they are not trying to one up each other by turning a disagreement in views to a personal level.
edit in reply to Mvass's post: The past months I was certainly less than present, as I became really sick of what I was seeing and took a mini vacation - however Angelito has always been here.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 01, 2008 05:29 PM |
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Well, Mvass, I'd like to add, as long as you don't break the CoC while doing that.
_______________________________________________________________
The Main problem of OSM (this is getting way too repetitive) are indeed the threads about nationalistc Issues (Vidoja's and Seraphim's penalties are a good example to this), and not the traditional threads (like Downhill Times, War in Iraq), nor the Quotefests (I gave up Believing in God), who although actively discussed, also turn out to be the engine that keeps OSM alive.
Let's face it though: OSM has the old (and not completely untrue) cliché of being a very dull place (I mean, hardly anyone in his right mind (who isn't in the discussion or a mod) likes to read them).
I know many critise Angelot and Pandora for their so-called bad moderatorship, but may I point some things out to the whiners:
1) Bad or not bad, Pan and Angelito still put a lot of their efford and time in the bloody board (sorry for the swearing), time they could've spent elsewhere, doing nicer stuff; (I personally think that Moderatoring the OSM is as much fun as cleaning lavatories is)
2) Be glad that this Boards is moderatrd in the first place. It would've been much worse, and be honest: Would you prefer that no one ran it?
What I'm trying to say is that whining doesn't improve/worsen the situation, and that I admire Pan/angelito that they are willing to do this in the first place.
*applause*
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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