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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 05:29 PM |
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Quote:
the problem isn't that people can't discuss whatever they'd like - the problem is in the way people have chosen to discuss things.
The general rule is to discuss the topic, and address the points made - NOT to attack the person saying them.
That's not discussion, so I wasn't addressing that phenomenon.  I recall someone somewhere saying something like "you can't post your opinion without being quoted." Of course, the format of quote wars is not very good, but there is nothing wrong with the discussion of opinions.
Certainly sometimes there are personal attacks. But usually it is not the quote wars people that are responsible for that. The people engaged in quote wars are not the ones attacking others, but they're the ones getting all of the attention. 
Lexxan:
Agreed. That's why there need to be more people involved in discussions.
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Eccentric Opinion
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 05:43 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 17:47, 01 Sep 2008.
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I don't know that quote wars are really that big of a deal - it just gets tiresome when you're trying to catch up on a thread, and you end up essentially reading the same thing over and over because of the quotes. It gets really irritating - and a lot of the time the point by point dissection is really unnecessary, and a reply would be easily possible without it.
On the flip-side, of course sometimes quoting is necessary - especially when there are several people participating in a discussion and you want it to be clear what you're addressing to avoid confusion.
In reply to Lexxan, it would be very nice to see more of a variety in the types of threads discussed in the OSM. The whole point of the thread is to get to see what's happening on the Other side of the Monitor - that means getting to know the people behind the posts, and is not limited to political / religious beliefs.
It would be nice if people here started to get to know each other better and engaged in some topics that weren't sure to create some sort of fussiness. I don't mean a bunch of threads where people are telling their life story - but just more general topics about who we are and what we're doing.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 05:52 PM |
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You may not think about quote wars are that big of a deal, but I think that when most members think about what's wrong with the Other Side, Quote Wars comes to mind before racism and provocation.
As to your last point, there seem to be 5 kinds of threads in HC:
Life Stories (e.g. Downhill Times, Uphill Times, Why are you the way you are?)
Current Event (e.g. Olympics)
Controversial Topic that Degenerates into a Philosophical Discussion (e.g. United States President 2008, Abortion/Contraception/Stem Cell Research)
Philosophical Discussion (e.g. Moral Philosophy, IGUOBIG)
Misc. (e.g. What languages do you people speak?)
The third and fourth types often spur long debates.
What kinds of topics would you suggest, in addition to the above five?
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Eccentric Opinion
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 06:12 PM |
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I guess for me, quote wars can often be a pain to read, and can deter me from really following a thread - but I do not see them as the problem here.
In my opinion, the problem is really a lack of respect. Some people don't take the time to try to understand what some one's saying, or discuss with them in a rational manner.
As for what types of threads I think should be added, I wasn't thinking so much in creating a new category for thread topics here - it was more a general thought - that it would be nice to see more threads where the objective isn't always to argue. Most threads come down to sides, and the sides go back and forth constantly... sometimes seeming endless
Threads like imagine us all here together, or the Self Criticism thread for example are not about that.
Back before the OSM was created, you would see posters in one thread making a very serious post about whatever issue of the day it was, and in another thread they might be making silly jokes or just having fun with each other. That to me is what is missing, we spend a lot of time in the OSM pointing out how we're different - and I think it would be more fun to visit here if we learned a little bit more of how we're the same. It would be eaier to relate to some people if you saw that they were not always up on a soapbox
I'm not saying that this needs to be a love fest, that would get old even faster than the flaming.. But what i'm getting at, is that there is more to people than just one side - I would enjoy discussing things here more if I saw more different sides to people, not just the same old back and forth debating.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 06:15 PM |
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Quote:
Back before the OSM was created, you would see posters in one thread making a very serious post about whatever issue of the day it was, and in another thread they might be making silly jokes or just having fun with each other. That to me is what is missing, we spend a lot of time in the OSM pointing out how we're different - and I think it would be more fun to visit here if we learned a little bit more of how we're the same. It would be eaier to relate to some people if you saw that they were not always up on a soapbox
This. Seriously.   TheDeath, Asheera, are you reading this?
Yes, there needs to be more respect and less flaming.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 01, 2008 06:17 PM |
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Quote:
Back before the OSM was created, you would see posters in one thread making a very serious post about whatever issue of the day it was, and in another thread they might be making silly jokes or just having fun with each other.
I tried to explain to TheDeath about him being too SIRIOUS but he won't listen
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 06:18 PM |
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You're both guilty. I think he overreacted, certainly, but you responded in kind.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 01, 2008 06:20 PM |
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Quote:
You're both guilty. I think he overreacted, certainly, but you responded in kind.
What? I don't know what you're talking about, I was talking about an argue with TheDeath yesterday on MSN
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 01, 2008 06:20 PM |
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Actually I think the silly jokes should belong to the Tavern or VW (depending how silly obviously). 
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 01, 2008 06:21 PM |
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hmmmhh...:
Ash will lose this contest becouse she is Sirous,and death,along with Mvs.
being the only UNSIROUSE person here,i will win,and azg after
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types in obscure english
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 06:31 PM |
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Quote:
Actually I think the silly jokes should belong to the Tavern or VW (depending how silly obviously).
Haha! I quoted TheDeath (sue me)
You've missed my point there, I am not saying that silliness needs to be brought into the OSM as a rule. What I am saying, is that a lot of the time people tend to read a particular forum that suits them, they don't read all the forums - so when looking at the OSM alone, some members might seem to be very preachy and judgemental - whereas if you read them elsewhere, you see that its not entirely who they are.
Threads like the Gootch's new South Dakota Ho etc are an example of what I mean when I talk about showing there's more to yourself than just one particular character trait.
My main point is that showing the person on the other side of the monitor does mean more than just showing that you can be very very serious and important.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 07:10 PM |
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Asheera:
I see. I thought you were talking about today's "Calm (yeah, right) arguing" thread.
TheDeath:
I'm not saying that we should drag silly jokes in the OSM, but that we need to not take things so personally, for one thing. And also that we need to attune ourselves to our sense of humor, because, in the middle of a debate, I might say something jokingly or semi-jokingly, but someone will take it seriously. It's okay to put a few small laughs in the middle of all the seriousness.
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Eccentric Opinion
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 07:17 PM |
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What you said there to the Death illustrates my point - people who don't read everything that you write won't have that knowledge that you're joking - they will most often perceive you as being very serious and therefore insulting, harsh etc.
That's why I think that things would be much more pleasant here if more of the people talking had a better general idea of who they're talking to, there would be less misunderstandings and because of that, better quality of discussion 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 01, 2008 07:35 PM |
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You mean there are people that read everything they write? 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2008 07:36 PM |
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Some of us have to 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted September 02, 2008 08:59 AM |
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Edited by william at 09:01, 02 Sep 2008.
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I just want to reply to some things since I have been reading this whole thing (and making a complete fool of myself before  )
@ Pandora
I personally think Quote Wars are okay IF they don't totally dissect a post mainly from word to word or in single sentences. I don't think that any of that is really necessary although I have seen it a lot even back a few years ago. But even then, they made a balance of quoting and actual posting and not just quoting a few words or a sentence only to reply with just a few words. I must admit though, ever since Corribus posted in Mvass's thread, I have seen Mvass replying by not quoting as much. It is a welcome change and it would be good to see TheDeath doing that as well. It just makes it easier to read and it also makes the post much better IMO.
You also mentioned that quoting is good to avoid confusion. I think that if the person replying would put something like "@ Pandora" or "@Mvassilev" that it would also do pretty much the same thing. I see that quite a lot but even if they do that, they usually will quote a lot. Believe me, I see nothing wrong with quoting but it really needs to be used in a good way.
One thing that I can't stand is when people quote other people that have included images in that quote. For example, i have seen Trogdor do this before, where he quotes an image from a few pages back (usually the images are large) only to say a few words on the pictures. It just wastes bandwidth for the user. Sure, that might seem like complaining but it isn't good going back to dialup every month. Is there any solution to members who do that?
Mvassilev
Quote Wars are known before such topics like Racism or provocation because members often click on threads to try and discuss things but all they really find is massive amounts of quoting. They then tell others and it just spreads. That is how the Quoting became such an issue. It's just because people want to reply to threads but they might feel too lazy or intimidated by the length of the replies. Remember that not everyone has a lot of time and it isn't always easy to reply to everything that a member says, especially if there is a lot of quoting.
A problem with quoting is that you (people in general) seem to just go back and forth without actually adding anything new. The posts just lead to nowhere and usually the thread goes off course and loses it's original meaning. What I like to do instead of that is just send an IM to the person that I was replying to with just a small point. It really makes things easier at times since people don't have to re-read many points that have already been made and are just being remade all over again.
@ Asheera
Of course TheDeath won't listen. He is too busy trying to fix his sound problem. I think the reason why he might not listen is that you and him really don't seem to be able to agree with one another on many subjects and when you try and talk to each other most of the time, it just ends up in an argument. It really would be good if you two could patch up your differences and get along. I guess calling him SIRIOUS all the time might not help. It's like the quoting. We get the point the first time it is made but it usually just gets remade over and over. I think calling TheDeath SIRIOUS might cause more friction between the two of you.
Anyway, nerds/geeks are supposed to be SIRIOUS. You don't really see any non-SIRIOUS nerds/geeks do you? If they weren't SIRIOUS then they might be at parties, chilling out, or socialising...or something.
I like the both of you a lot because you are both good to talk to, but it really isn't any good seeing you two act like this to one another. Asheera, i think you need to stop taking everything so seriously and remember that this is just a message board and that nothing bad will happen if somebody disagrees with you and TheDeath needs to take time to listen to other people and learn to accept that other people have different opinions and that he isn't correct all the time.
@ TheDeath
The Other Side of the Monitor is supposed to discuss real life, correct? Jokes are made in real life, so I don't see anything wrong if there is a joke here and there. However, I do think that Jokes should be moderated by members who want to make them. I guess OSM is known for being kinda serious because of the political threads, issues on racism etc. It would be good to see people being able to make a joke here and there while still discussing some important issue.
And like Pandora said, the OSM isn't just for politics, racism and all that. It is also used to talk about things happening in real life, such as the things happening to the members in real life. It would be good to see some discussion about something else for a change rather than just the usual discussion about war and all that.
I hope that this is more like the post that should be in here, Pandora. My previous post sucked.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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BoxerPL
Tavern Dweller
box your way
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posted September 02, 2008 09:43 AM |
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i read the faq those qp are rewards for a good posts right?
give him one
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=26960
i want to created one myself but its good enough
go talk about martials art people!
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doomforge's cousin
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 02, 2008 01:10 PM |
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I think quote wars ruin threads. The sheer amount of posts made by TheDeath and mvassilev and the length of them drowned good threads like "I gave up believing ..." and "Abortion/...".
I used to read those threads but when the quote wars started you had to work your way through several pages of occasionally meter-long posts that rarely added anything new to the discussion. Every day.
To provoke a bit, one might say that such a use of the quote feature nearly falls within the scope of spam.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 02, 2008 01:15 PM |
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Quote:
The Other Side of the Monitor is supposed to discuss real life, correct? Jokes are made in real life, so I don't see anything wrong if there is a joke here and there. However, I do think that Jokes should be moderated by members who want to make them.
William you didn't get my point. I am not saying jokes are bad, but I don't like when people tell someone else who was serious (not necessarily in a flame war at all!!) to "chill out" or "SIRIOUS strikes again". There is a difference.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted September 02, 2008 01:40 PM |
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I don't see how telling somebody to chill out is a joke. 
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