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| Thread: Which are the best creatures for each tier? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 16, 2006 05:10 PM |
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Which are the best creatures for each tier?
For each creature tier, which is the most effective creature for that tier? For example, a peasant is a tier 1 creature, a black dragon is a tier 7.
I don't have the game yet so I can't offer up any thoughts.
Also was wondering if the Vampire Lords were are dominate in this version of Heroes as they have been in previous versions.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 16, 2006 06:12 PM |
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That's quite a complicated question, and it depens on how you define "best". You can look at which creature has more power, or you can look at which town receives most power each week - the powergrowth, or power times weekly growth. Each is listed below for your information.
Level one
Highest Power: Assassin (295)
Lowest Power: Conscript (70)
Highest Powergrowth: Academy (Master Gremlin) (2100)
Lowest Powergrowth: Inferno (Imps) (1200)
Level two
Highest Power: Blood Fury (484)
Lowest Power: Zombie (150)
Highest Powergrowth: Academy (Gargoyle) (3096)
Lowest Powergrowth: Inferno and Necropolis (Demons and Zombies) (each 2250)
Level three
Highest Power: Minotauer Guard (474 - actually below Blood Fury!)
Lowest Power: Crusader (287)
Highest Powergrowth: Academy (Golems) (3213)
Lowest Powergrowth: Necropolis (Ghosts) (2808)
Level four
Highest Power: Elder Druid (846)
Lowest Power: Mage (687)
Highest Powergrowth: Necropolis (Vampires) (3695)
Lowest Powergrowth: Dungeon (Raiders) (3248)
Level five
Highest Power: Lich (1518)
Lowest Power: Genie (1126)
Highest Powergrowth: Necropolis (Liches) (4554)
Lowest Powergrowth: Academie (Genies) (3378)
Level six
Highest Power: Wraith (2588)
Lowest Power: Treant (1993)
Highest Powergrowth: Necropolis (Wraiths) (5176)
Lowest Powergrowth: Sylvan (Treants) (3986)
Level seven
Highest Power: Black Dragon (6443)
Lowest Power: Spectral Dragon (3905)
Highest Powergrowth: Dungeon (Nlack Dragons) (6443)
Lowest Powergrowth: Inferno (Arch Devils) (5794)
And as you will see if you look in the topic on the Necromancy power defficiency, the Inferno is the overall weakest city when judged only on in-town weekly creature growth, and excluding any none-reported creature growth buildings (thus, if they received one extra Pit Lord through a creature generator, they would be on level with the other cities). Likewise, under the same circumstances, the Academy is the strongest town.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 16, 2006 06:26 PM |
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I was actually thinking about doing up a spreadsheet to figure this out, I imagine you got those power ratings form the herosofmightandmagic site? It would have objective ratings for power as well as subjective ratings for their special abilities, and a section for offense and defense. For example I think that the Vampires special abilities should at least double their rating in most circumstances.
Offensive power would be how hard they hit vs an opponent with a 10 defensive rating.
Defensive power would be how many hits they could take from an opponent with a 10 base attack with a 10 offense rating.
Subjective evaluation of their special abilities would have to tie back to their use in combat. Enemies attacked by Vampires don't get strikebacks, and the Vampires regain life, so that should help them defensively since they don't get hit as often and can regain their numbers back.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 16, 2006 07:14 PM |
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I have made spreadsheets with all the data - I've uploadet it, if you want to have a look. http://users.rhk.dk/alcibiades/files/HeroesV.xls
I took the power values from the site you mention. They come from the game creater and should include the special abilities, not only combat strength.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 16, 2006 07:34 PM |
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Oh no, I feel compelled to steal that speadsheet!
Well, would you mind very much if I used it to start mine? The basic offense, defense, HPs, min attack, max attack would need to be used anyway.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 16, 2006 08:07 PM |
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Go ahead! I wouldn't upload it if I wouldn't want you to have it. No sense in both of us doing all the boring copy-and-paste work. 
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kinslayer
Sometimes death seems better-
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posted May 16, 2006 10:47 PM |
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no ofence alcibiades but i can't see in u'r list the "succubus"
i thick succubus are best creatures on their tier. imo
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 16, 2006 11:46 PM |
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Quote:
no ofence alcibiades but i can't see in u'r list the "succubus"
i thick succubus are best creatures on their tier. imo
Well ... they are not. At least not if you look only at the power values provided by the game developer. Of course depending on your strategy they might provide more or less usefull - and they are also the inferno creature that compares best to the other cities in weekly powergrowth - but based on the powerrating used in the game, they are less powerfull than the Vampire and the Griffin if you compare them by powergrowth (the Griffins providing 97 % of the Vampire powergrowth, and the Succubi providing 94 %). In absolute power, the Grim Raider is the most powerfull level 4 creature, but because of it's lower weakly growth than Vampires (4 vs. 5) the Necropolis comes out on the top on an overall weekly scale.
Of course, the power rating might be errornous. You could try to make a test 10 Succubi Mistresses vs. 10 Vampire Lords to test who's the strongest - or 100 vs. 100. That's just difficult when we haven't got a map editor to make test maps. I don't know how they've put a number on the special abilities like Chain Shot and Life Drain.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 02:44 AM |
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Well I made up my own spreadsheet. Not sure if I got the values exactly right, on my SS, a black dragon is worth roughly 20k Conscripts  Regardless here is what I came up with for each tier:
Power:
1: Assasin (Dungeon)
2: Blood Fury (Dungeon)
3: Minotaur (Dungeon)
4: Grim Raider (Dungeon)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Rakshasa (Dungeon)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Power*Growth:
1: Assasin (Dungeon)
2: Blood Fury (Dungeon)
3: Steel Golem (Academy)
4: Vampire Lord (Necropolis)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Rakshasa (Dungeon)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Hmmmm.... looks like Dungeon comes up the clear winner.
My Power Rating was: HP * Avg Damage * (1+AttackR/25) * (1+DefenseR/33) * Subjective Rating
And the subjective rating is between 1 and 2
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 07:06 AM |
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Skeleton archers will probably come out on top as the best level 1 creature simply because you can get so many of them with necromancy. Master Gremlin are probably number 2 since they have good initiative for a shooter and they can repair golems. Although assassins are the best level 1 creature statistically, their low growth and ranged penalty really hurts them.
Blood furies are probably the best level 2 creature due to their high speed and initiative, their strike and return ability and their no retaliation ability. Marksmen are probably number 2 because you can get a lot of them by training peasants. It may be expensive but you can make that money back by expanding faster and getting those treasure chests and mines a couple of days before you normally could. Plus later in the game, you'll be able to reduce the cost of training by half with the Monument of Fallen Heroes and expert training, and you'll have enough money to train most if not all of your peasants into marksman.
Master hunters are probably the best level 3 creature due to their high damage, their ability to shoot two shots, and their warding arrow. Cerberus are probably number 2 due to their ability to cross the battlefield in one turn, their high initiative, and their no retaliation three headed attack. Cerberi are fragile so you have to support them with nightmares and devils. Nightmares can also cross the field in one turn and they have the frightful aura which reduces enemy morale by 3 which can take some heat off the the cerberi. Devils are much slower than the cerberus and the nightmare but they can still hit 4 square creatures if you have the tactics skill so you can send them along to either help protect the cerberi or if you're not fast enough, raise the dead cerberi as pit fiends.
Both the royal griffin and the grim raider have easily exploitable abilities so it's hard to pick between them. The royal griffin's battle dive and high initiatve are extremely useful against neutral casters and shooters. If you have to fight a big group of neutral casters or shooters like mages or succubus, you can just split your royal griffins into the empty slots, leave the rest of your army out, and then just battle dive the enemy. You can exploit the grim raider's lizard bite by splitting your blood furies. Position your raiders next to a stack you want to attack. Attack that stack with your furies and you'll get free damage from lizard bite.
Archliches are definitely the best level 5 unit and the second best shooter in the game. A week's growth of archliches can do more damage than a week's growth of shadow matriarchs and that's not counting their death cloud ability. The archlich's biggest weakness is their four square size, which makes them an easy target, and they have slow speed so they have trouble running from melee attackers. Nightmares are probably number 2 due to their high initiative and the ability to cross the battlefield in one turn. Plus their frightful aura reduces enemy morale by 3, which is extremely useful against neutrals. It's just too bad that there aren't many abilities and artifacts that reduce morale or luck.
Paladins have got to be the best level 6 creature. They have good initiative and they can cross the battlefield in one turn, combined with their charge ability, they also get an extra 80% damage when they attack a creature from across the battlefield. I'm not so sure about the rest but the pit lord seems pretty easily exploitable, especially when you first get them, you just split them into a bunch of stacks and you'll be able to slaughter level 7 creatures.
I'm not sure which is the best level 7 creatures but spectral dragons are definitely the crappiest one, even with the extra growth, and archdevils are second worst. Even with 3 spectral dragons, they still do the least amount of damage for level 7 creatures. Archdevils are just not worth their cost.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 17, 2006 08:46 AM |
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Quote:
Well I made up my own spreadsheet. Not sure if I got the values exactly right, on my SS, a black dragon is worth roughly 20k Conscripts Regardless here is what I came up with for each tier:
Power:
1: Assasin (Dungeon)
2: Blood Fury (Dungeon)
3: Minotaur (Dungeon)
4: Grim Raider (Dungeon)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Rakshasa (Dungeon)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Power*Growth:
1: Assasin (Dungeon)
2: Blood Fury (Dungeon)
3: Steel Golem (Academy)
4: Vampire Lord (Necropolis)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Rakshasa (Dungeon)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Hmmmm.... looks like Dungeon comes up the clear winner.
My Power Rating was: HP * Avg Damage * (1+AttackR/25) * (1+DefenseR/33) * Subjective Rating
And the subjective rating is between 1 and 2
Well, it looks like either your powerrating was not the right way to calculate things, or the Dungeon comes out extremely overpowered (which is not very likely imo., but what do I know anyway ...). Anyway, just that fact that the Deep Hydra comes out as the most powerfull level 5 creature is an indecation that you put too much value into HP and not enough into attack/deffense, damage, speed and specials.
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 09:06 AM |
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Initiative is a huge factor, a much bigger factor than speed was in the previous games. Creatures with low initiative are severly limited in usefulness.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 17, 2006 09:23 AM |
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Quote:
Skeleton archers will probably come out on top as the best level 1 creature simply because you can get so many of them with necromancy.
Not the best, but possibly the most usefull one, yes.
Quote:
Both the royal griffin and the grim raider have easily exploitable abilities so it's hard to pick between them.
I think the Druid is gonna be a very important unit as well - but the Grim is certainly extremely powerfull, with very high hit points and great attack and dama statistics - and very powerfull specials.
Quote:
I'm not sure which is the best level 7 creatures but spectral dragons are definitely the crappiest one, even with the extra growth, and archdevils are second worst. Even with 3 spectral dragons, they still do the least amount of damage for level 7 creatures. Archdevils are just not worth their cost.
I just think Spectral Dragons are a bit to expensive, with 2 Mercury pr. dragon x 3 a week, that's gonna be a lot of Mercury. And I don't understand that they yet again underpowered the Arch Devil. At least this time, they cut some of the edge of the Arch Angel as well, but without its teleportion ability or no-retaliation ability, it's just not a very good unit - and especially not considering the price! And then, the Black Dragon seems to be overpowered compared to the other level 7 units, with only a mediocre initiative as a weak spot.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 10:01 AM |
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Quote:
Well I made up my own spreadsheet. Not sure if I got the values exactly right, on my SS, a black dragon is worth roughly 20k Conscripts Regardless here is what I came up with for each tier:
Power:
1: Assasin (Dungeon)
2: Blood Fury (Dungeon)
3: Minotaur (Dungeon)
4: Grim Raider (Dungeon)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Rakshasa (Dungeon)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Power*Growth:
1: Assasin (Dungeon)
2: Blood Fury (Dungeon)
3: Steel Golem (Academy)
4: Vampire Lord (Necropolis)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Rakshasa (Dungeon)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Hmmmm.... looks like Dungeon comes up the clear winner.
My Power Rating was: HP * Avg Damage * (1+AttackR/25) * (1+DefenseR/33) * Subjective Rating
And the subjective rating is between 1 and 2
looking at ur power list, i'm quite sure the rakshasa is from academy, not dungeon...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 17, 2006 11:52 AM |
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Yay ... that's right, didn't even notice that glitch. But Dungeon is still fairly overpowered.. 
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 02:55 PM |
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Quote:
Initiative is a huge factor, a much bigger factor than speed was in the previous games. Creatures with low initiative are severly limited in usefulness.
Well... since I haven't played the game yet, I'm not exactly sure how initaitive works, but if it's equivalent to the fast/very fast/slow ratings from the previous games it's not taht important. Now if a high initiative unit could move twice as often as a slow one, that would be something...
Iniative and speed were not included in my power rating, except occasionally in the subjective rating.
As for the Hydra comment, they get No-retaliation, can attack multiple enemies, regenerate and get close to twice the HP of some of the other level 5s shouldn't that count for something
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 17, 2006 03:30 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Initiative is a huge factor, a much bigger factor than speed was in the previous games. Creatures with low initiative are severly limited in usefulness.
Well... since I haven't played the game yet, I'm not exactly sure how initaitive works, but if it's equivalent to the fast/very fast/slow ratings from the previous games it's not taht important. Now if a high initiative unit could move twice as often as a slow one, that would be something...
Iniative and speed were not included in my power rating, except occasionally in the subjective rating.
Initiative is not just when you act, but also how often. That is, units with high initiative will get to act more often than units with low initiative.
Quote:
As for the Hydra comment, they get No-retaliation, can attack multiple enemies, regenerate and get close to twice the HP of some of the other level 5s shouldn't that count for something
It would, but the hydra does lousy damage and is slow, and in a one-on-one situation, the multiple head attack will do it little good. The lich has ranged attack and is a spellcaster and does excellent damage - that also gives a lot of possibilities. Plus it has better initiative and higher attack and deffense. It's not easy to predict which one will come out the stronger in a 1 on 1 situation just from the hitpoints.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 05:40 PM |
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I don't think you have to work it out for a 1 on 1 situation. In most battles I imagine you'll be trying to dog-pile one group at a time to avoid the retaliation attacks. In a 1 on 1 situation a stack of Vampires would be ridiculously powerful, getting in 2 attacks to every 1 opponent attack and regenerating life when they attack. In a real battle situation a spell caster could fry the Vamps, or the opponent could ignore them until the end or dog-pile them at the beginning. Well I suppose I'll have to factor speed and initiative into my power rating...
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 07:27 PM |
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A creature with 16 initiative will be able to move twice before a creature with 8 initiative moves.
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Dungeonian
Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
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posted May 19, 2006 12:59 AM |
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Well , here is my list of each tier strenghs , not suprising for all , most of our creatures are the best on their level .
Lvl 1 - Assasins. True , they have a much lesser growth , but they have more then twice HP advatage to all other 1st tiers , the poison ability also is great help , their range penalty isn't a big broblem - I often use my assasins as melee unit cause they do full damage .
Lvl 2 - Blood Furies are uncompairable ! Just can to say that with only 20 of Furies I crashed without any lose hordes of swordsmen and golems ! With tactics ability they would also easily defeat low level shooters .
Lvl 3 - Minotaur Guards are ok , high HP and double attack ... but initiative is only 8 , since they can't act as often as I wish . Since my vote is for Master Hunters - their huge damage is awesome .
Lvl 4 - Grim Raiders have very high HP for their tier + magnificent abilities . If compair them to H3 , I could say that they're Ogres with Behemoth ability and Champion speed - what a powerful combination !
Lvl 5 - Deep Hydras haven't a big offensive potential cause they're slow and their damage is below average , but their defensive strengh is great . In hot multiplayer battles hydras very often are mine last stack on battlefield . Their tougness gives my hero a criticaly needed time to cast our mortal emproved spells . For me , only one 5 tier unit is compairable with Deep Hydras , this's the Inquisitor since he's 1*1 no melee penalty shooter and caster with valid 80 HP .
Lvl 6 - In high numbers Paladins are definitely the best 6 tier creatures , with 80% charging bonus Paladins are probably the most damagedealing stack on battlefield . In low numbers , less than 10 the spliting of Shadow Matriarchs could give a huge bonus - 3-4 stacks off them make a mass slow effect to enemies and mass bloodlust to our stacks .
Lvl 7 - Black Dragons aren't as strong as they were in H4 , but stil stronger than other factions tier 7 having highest HP and damage + breath attack and magic immunity . Also 9 speed allows Blackies attack almost anyone thay want .
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