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TheDeath
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posted April 09, 2008 02:52 PM |
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Another problem is that people seem to bash Bible because it ruins the vision of a perfect God, that can be put in our modern reality and still fit well.
This may not be relevant to the Bible at all, but the "modern" society ain't perfect either! 
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Going 100% for logic and science is never the best idea. As one famous English physics professor said (can't remember his name, shame..  )
Pascal also said "We know the truth, not only by reason, but also by the heart."
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There are things you simply feel that weren't, aren't and will never be understood. Such as self-awareness, and a thousand of other things.
Yes because science does not take 'feelings' into the same categories as 'eyes' for example, even though both are processed by the brain. Well people always trust their eyes more than other 'feelings', I do not know why though (as both are processed by the brain and thus subject to illusions, so...). Maybe it's because most people don't want or care to understand their feelings..?
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There are hundreds of thousands of examples of people who experienced things that made them religious, even if they were complete atheists. There were things that science never could explain. The NDE is a good example - a man that has been in clinical death could describe the internal injuries of a man in the next room, that were not diagnosed yet. My family has experienced things that are unexplainable as well, but I won't bore you with my stories. My point is that in my life I've seen and heard enough things to convince me that God and afterlife exists, and I pretty much doubt there is a thing that would destroy my faith.
Well I do not know any NDE personally but meditation also helps for such experiences -- at least I know it myself (i.e not 'taking' anyone's word for it). The interesting part comes when you start to philosophize about it (not with others, but with yourself).
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Doomforge
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posted April 09, 2008 02:56 PM |
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A shame Corribus stopped posting here, he understands chemistry and physics the way I never will (as a mare ex-biology student, uh-huh  ). He could probably give us more insight in that matter. Perhaps there were some discoveries lately that changed things a bit, I'm not very up to date with those things.
Since I've always been interested in phenomenology, I remember quite a couple of things that are currently unexplainable by science. The list is outrageously long..
As I said a couple of posts earlier, I know a person who experienced NDE in her life twice, so it's not just theory, it's practice 
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Minion
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posted April 09, 2008 03:59 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 16:07, 09 Apr 2008.
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And if you want to live a "good" life, you will follow the example Jesus set, whether you realize it or not, I think it's pretty clear.
Jesus's ideas are not much more than what other moral philosophers had already invented. The Golden Rule, Turn the other Cheek etc. all quite literally same as those Lao Tse wrote. That doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't a great moral philosopher - I value him quite high actually. But still it gives me the creeps when one states that "if you life a good life you follow Jesus" . An annoyingly christian consept...
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Going 100% for logic and science is never the best idea. As one famous English physics professor said (can't remember his name, shame.. ), science never takes the human's sense of aesthetics into consideration when trying to describe things like God and faith. There are things you simply feel that weren't, aren't and will never be understood. Such as self-awareness, and a thousand of other things. There are hundreds of thousands of examples of people who experienced things that made them religious, even if they were complete atheists. There were things that science never could explain. The NDE is a good example - a man that has been in clinical death could describe the internal injuries of a man in the next room, that were not diagnosed yet. My family has experienced things that are unexplainable as well, but I won't bore you with my stories. My point is that in my life I've seen and heard enough things to convince me that God and afterlife exists, and I pretty much doubt there is a thing that would destroy my faith.
And that's why I believe in God, and probably I always will.
That I understand quite well, and I like that approach to religion in general. I think I have commeneted quite similarily to your some previous post... But anyways this was well put 
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Pascal also said "We know the truth, not only by reason, but also by the heart."
That is extremely wise. The west only sees reasoning as knowledge. But there are things that your bodu can "know" as well, and you don't have an explanation for it that satisfies the brain. I believe that is the same as knowing by heart or feelings.
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Doomforge
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posted April 09, 2008 04:38 PM |
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But still it gives me the creeps when one states that "if you life a good life you follow Jesus" . An annoyingly christian consept...
Since we were talking about Bible, I said about Jesus only, but in general it applies to other moral authorities as well, of course.
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Corribus
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posted April 09, 2008 05:39 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 17:39, 09 Apr 2008.
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A shame Corribus stopped posting here, he understands chemistry and physics the way I never will (as a mare ex-biology student, uh-huh ). He could probably give us more insight in that matter. Perhaps there were some discoveries lately that changed things a bit, I'm not very up to date with those things.
I'm still around. It's just that my life the last two weeks has been one continuous chain of disasters.
Could you please restate concisely what you want "more insight" into? Threads like this are hard to follow if you haven't read them in a while.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 10, 2008 11:05 AM |
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@Azagal:
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Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this imply that religion is a bad thing because people can use it for wrong purposes? I still don't see how this is an valid argument for describing religion as something "bad". Many things (as TheDeath mentioned) can be used for the wrong purposes but that doesn't make the things themselves bad, does it?
At the risk of being rude I have mentioned a few times I'm talking about the bible, not religion..
And my bad Azagal... I got confused between the posts 
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And about the bible being useless and stuff... hmm... I don't see it the way that people "base their (entire) lifes" on that book. I however only know many intelligent and reasonable people thus I don't know how many people would actually do such a thing. But when they do I don't see what's wrong with saying that "I don't follow xyz bad but I do zxy good". Christanity forces you to acknowledge the bible as the holy word (I'm not sure about the "force" part) but it doesn't tell you that "IT IS THE ONLY TRUTH, INFIDELLLLL!!" (or does it?). Well even if it does, only fanatics would chose to live by those words and the normal (majority) christians don't live by that. So I don't see whats wrong with it.
lol.
Have you been to America?
1/3 of the American electorate interpret the bible literally.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 10, 2008 11:17 AM |
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@Doomforge:
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You say the Bible is useless, well, it is
a) an impressive part of human culture and therefore NOT useless
b) a document informing us of the way the Jews lived ages ago, teaching us about their customs and (partially) history
c) a symbol - for those who believe in God - of men and God's alliance, something you seem to miss, yes it's a relic for those who believe
Perhaps the bible is useful as a testimony to human stupidity
Or as a work of art as it's quite the imaginative story... (maybe someone should make the movie... oh wait)
But I meant a practical application to help you in life. While a work of art might be nice to look at, it's not "useful" in the conventional sense of the word.
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And if you want to live a "good" life, you will follow the example Jesus set, whether you realize it or not, I think it's pretty clear.
We don't need to know the bible to know good.
Therefore the bible is redundant.
But Jesus IS separate to the bible. Jesus would have been a nice guy (even though he was effectively destined to be killed by his father doing) if people actually listened to alot of what Jesus taught then that would be beneficial.
But how many people are sitting in a situation, and go wait a second, let's look up the bible for a situation which parallels this one, and see what I should do!
No one. The bible is useless in that regard.
Maybe if a new bible were written and all the **** taken out and updated with the good morals, then it might be useful. A little pocket book
But then you'd still have all the pointless stuff like "Do not take my name in vain..." "do not make false idols..." etc. Which is ridiculous and not helpful at all.
So if you were to take THAT out it would bear no semblance to the bible or to christianity, it would just be a paper with good morals on it.
And As I said if you need a little paper in your pocket to tell you not to cheat and steal 24/7 you've got a few more problems than religion can help you with...
As you mentioned the New Testament, that's just as bad (sometimes worse) than the Old Testament, but I don't think I need quote anymore scripture it's quite tedious, not all the quotes on the previous page are Old Testament remember.
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Going 100% for logic and science is never the best idea.
Never?
Not even in a maths test?
And The Death's quote "We know the truth, not only by reason, but also by the heart."
Come on. Again, it's not bible versus science. You can be an atheist who hates science, but just realizes how stupid the Bible story is.
By that same token an atheist does not automatically disregard all feelings and emotions and human instinct lol they're not cold blooded machines
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John says to live above hell.
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Azagal
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posted April 10, 2008 01:23 PM |
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At the risk of being rude I have mentioned a few times I'm talking about the bible, not religion..
Ah ok right I had already gotten that but for me the bible issue was over since you are more or less right (eventhough I think you are a tiny weny bit too hard on the poor book) and somehow I had the impression that we were also talking about religion in general must have gotten cofused sorry
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And my bad Azagal... I got confused between the posts
You have sinned!! *goes to look up the passage in the bible which tells him what to do*... Thou shalt be punished in hell ! Oh no wait... wrong chapter... I forgive you ()
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Have you been to America?
1/3 of the American electorate interpret the bible literally.
...Hmmm... I must say that I'm one of the people who belives that most Americans are quite ignorant and pretty much blinded by their patritoism and torch-of-liberty-carierism. However I was sure that I've only been extremly unlucky and during my 6 years experiencing "Base" Americans there could have been no possible way that an entire state could consist of such disturbing people (I'm talking about personal experiences here I'm not say all Americans are...). But well if really 1/3 of Americans do electorate interpret the bible literally that is... ehm... "unrational".
But why change the bible if it only affects unrational people in a "bad" way(because there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many of them?)?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 10, 2008 01:33 PM |
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Ah ok right I had already gotten that but for me the bible issue was over since you are more or less right (eventhough I think you are a tiny weny bit too hard on the poor book) and somehow I had the impression that we were also talking about religion in general must have gotten cofused sorry
Well, we were talking about the bible being used for bad or good, the "tool"...
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...Hmmm... I must say that I'm one of the people who belives that most Americans are quite ignorant and pretty much blinded by their patritoism and torch-of-liberty-carierism. However I was sure that I've only been extremly unlucky and during my 6 years experiencing "Base" Americans there could have been no possible way that an entire state could consist of such disturbing people (I'm talking about personal experiences here I'm not say all Americans are...). But well if really 1/3 of Americans do electorate interpret the bible literally that is... ehm... "unrational".
But why change the bible if it only affects unrational people in a "bad" way(because there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many of them?)?
In America there is a thing called Separation of Church and State. An idea... no one is yet to see it though
And I won't make the point that anyone who believes that... [there is an invisible omnipresent omnipotent being that cares what we do in bed and has a list of things that we're allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do and punishes us for ETERNITY for doing these things even though he loves us] ...is irrational thus anyone using the bible is irrational................
I won't make that point at all. That wouldn't go down well
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John says to live above hell.
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Azagal
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posted April 10, 2008 01:48 PM |
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there is an invisible omnipresent omnipotent being that cares what we do in bed and has a list of things that we're allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do and punishes us for ETERNITY for doing these things even though he loves us
Is God portrayed like that in the Bible (I didn't say you said so!!)? Because for me God is a omnipresent,omnipotent,being that cares about us, loves us and forgives our sins (This may seem as if I've only been picking out the nice stuff about God so that I wouldn't have to feel bad about myself for doing something against the Holy Word... but well I don't think I've done that atleast not intentionally) and I don't see how that could be irational (except for beliveing in something that hasn't been proven existant).
(Am I missing the point again?)
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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TheDeath
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posted April 11, 2008 03:39 PM |
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Going 100% for logic and science is never the best idea.
Never?
Not even in a maths test?
Surprisingly, in most maths equations I usually do (which include 3D calculations, manipulations and other geometry algorithms, which may even use boolean logic) the thing that helps me solve them is my 'feeling' (not as "feelings" like love, but something along the lines of: "This doesn't look right to me" or "I feel this is the path to solve it"), and only thereafter apply some math rules to solve them. This also means, I am not that kind of proof-freak that needs to prove if something is correct. As long as I feel it's ok and the algorithm works (meaning it does what I wanted it), then it's good enough for me
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And The Death's quote "We know the truth, not only by reason, but also by the heart."
Come on. Again, it's not bible versus science. You can be an atheist who hates science, but just realizes how stupid the Bible story is.
I was replying to Doomforge's quote, and that wasn't about the Bible (at least not directly implied at all).
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 11, 2008 03:49 PM |
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Quote:
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there is an invisible omnipresent omnipotent being that cares what we do in bed and has a list of things that we're allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do and punishes us for ETERNITY for doing these things even though he loves us
Is God portrayed like that in the Bible (I didn't say you said so!!)? Because for me God is a omnipresent,omnipotent,being that cares about us, loves us and forgives our sins (This may seem as if I've only been picking out the nice stuff about God so that I wouldn't have to feel bad about myself for doing something against the Holy Word... but well I don't think I've done that atleast not intentionally) and I don't see how that could be irational (except for beliveing in something that hasn't been proven existant).
(Am I missing the point again?)
What part do you think that God is not portrayed as in the bible?
What you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive.
I didn't even think I said anything controversial...
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John says to live above hell.
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Lexxan
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posted April 17, 2008 08:13 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 19:21, 18 Apr 2008.
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If God had a name, what would it be
And would you call it to his face
If you were faced with him in all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question
And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
If God had a face what would it look like
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and in jesus and the saints and all the prophets
And yeah yeah god is great yeah yeah god is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
He's trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in rome
And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
What if god was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
Just trying to make his way home
Like a holy rolling stone
Back up to heaven all alone
Just trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in Rome
I don't think a "God" exists, but I am finding it hard to believe that there is no kind of energy, a cosmic power that lurks in the unknown universe. Only if we understand why we live we will find God... and thus Wisdom and Redeption.
I believe though that these will not come from any god, but from people exists. God, whether in Corporeal, Aetherial or Phychological form exists in all of us, deep inside. He is called Hope. Hope is the closest thing that can bring us to the Divine beings, and is exactly the thing that we seek from God. Hope is the key to find and understand the whole God-Idea. God only exists because of Hope and vice versa. God is Hope and Hope is God. It is regrettable that "Gods" message (if He ever existed) was misinterpreted wrongfully so often, which led to the deaths of millions, a genocide much greater than the Conquest of America and more terrble than the Holocaust, two parts of the enormous Divine Genocide for The Greater Good.
The idea of God (I think He is nothing more than a positive phychic phenomenon) also spawned some good things: It gives people a perpose something to live, fight and die for in great honour. It gives inspiration and grants life to all beautifull and man-made trinkets. The Parthenon, The Last Supper, even the Priest creature in Heroes, are all minor effects of the Idea. Yes God did good, but as all thing he has a downside, He also does bad things. I don't believe that People (as all living things ) aren't Good or Evil. All want to do good and do it for a motivation, a Godlike Idea. God, as a powefull force in everyones life, (Hindu, Muslim, Catholic, Buddhist or Atheļst) influences every life in a both good oand Evil way. It brings Inspiration, Unity, Happiness and of course the Idea itself, Hope. Unforlunately it also bring not so good things like Hatred, Narrow-mindedness, Discord and Hopelessness, the Antonyms of the former. The fact that God does Evil thing is not His fault, it is OURS. WE interpret our heart wongly, hera what we want to hear and do what we fancy, giving God as a motivation. We're deluded. God isn't a creature IMHO that just interferes where and when he fancies... He doesn't exist as a cr but as a Pchychic Phenomenon. Of coure we, people don't wist to believe this crap (unmless they wanted to) and fight the one who have gained the Insight: God doesn't exist and thus is not an excuse to hate and destroy others ! But if God doesn't exist, WHO is to blame the millions of Deaths done in His name. Have all these died for nothing... Accepting this fact is the only way to work out eachother differences IMO, though it will be hard and though, when people realise...
...That they've been wrong all the time 
PS: Some of the good thing God left us
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Azagal
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posted April 18, 2008 07:39 PM |
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It is regrettable that "Gods" message (if He ever existed) was misinterpreted wrongfully so often, which led to the deaths of millions, a genocide much greater than the Conquest of America and more terrble than the Holocaust, two parts of the enormous Divine Genocide for The Greater Good.
Sorry my friend but get your facts straight... The holocaust was not a "divine" genocide. Nazi's killed jews because they've been the scapegoats of society since the crossing of Jesus. Nazi didn't kill jews for the sake of god but for the sake of killing jews.
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The fact that God does Evil thing is not His fault, it is OURS.
Then how is it him that does it?
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But if God doesn't exist, WHO is to blame the millions of Deaths done in His name. Have all these died for nothing...
1. You yourself said that we are to blame if there is evil (in the above quote)it is us.
2. Ehm yeah? They all pretty much died for nothing.
And I don't think you should say "have come to the insight that God doesn't exist". You make it sound like it's true that he doesn't exist. I doubt you can prove it, can you now ?
Just saying because you know your statement would make people believing in God ignorant as they aren't "insightful".
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Lexxan
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posted April 18, 2008 08:43 PM |
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I'm sorry that I portrayed my vision a bit crudely, but that is what I sincerely believe. It is true that I cannot force you to come to insight as you say it, but if everyone did, there would be significantly less violence
 And yes, the holocaust is a Divine Genocide, but only to the Jews; it happend to Jews because they were Jews. It was because of their religion and is thus IMHO a Divine Genocide.
It still stays one of the most terrible events in History.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 19, 2008 04:55 AM |
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If bird == flying creature, then it's correct
If bird == thing, then it's correct
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted April 20, 2008 02:25 PM |
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@TA: What I meant was that people thousands of years ago had different meaning for the words. If they had used the word computer, for example, to express an animal, I hope you get the point that the meaning would be incompatible with today's language.
Bird back then meant "flying animal", not the biological stuff it means now. Using a one-to-one translation would result in such misunderstandings.
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Orfinn
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posted April 23, 2008 02:37 PM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 14:44, 23 Apr 2008.
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No offence but Im soooo gonna make a T-Shirt with this one
Now... wearing that pic in the Middle East for example would surely attract hostile fire, just another proof that religion blinds, well especially those who goes to the extremes!
Lets see.... humanity are like 21 centuries old? In my theory, humanity are only 21 years old. No wonder we still are stuck on Earth believing in old, mostly conservative religious beliefs. I guess there are some serious barriers of short-sighted, arrogant dudes in beurocracy and the higher powers that makes sure we havent got out of the "nest" (Earth) yet. I hope we have at the age of 25.
Just belive people, but dont expect that to make our world progress in form of colonisation and prosperity of the human species.
In short... humanity havent grown up yet so religion are just a natural part of the evolution.
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TheDeath
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posted April 23, 2008 02:49 PM |
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Lets see.... humanity are like 21 centuries old? In my theory, humanity are only 21 years old. No wonder we still are stuck on Earth believing in old, mostly conservative religious beliefs. I guess there are some serious barriers of short-sighted, arrogant dudes in beurocracy and the higher powers that makes sure we havent got out of the "nest" (Earth) yet. I hope we have at the age of 25.
I'm not sure aliens would not be happy with that at all.
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Just belive people, but dont expect that to make our world progress in form of colonisation and prosperity of the human species.
Though this has nothing to do with religion, I shall say there are a lot more important goals in life than to steal some alien's homes
I'm pretty sure when the "Big Squish" (or whatever else) will come most will probably realize how insignificant the 'evil' colonization is (it's like deforestation!). At least if we haven't already destroyed countless alien species by then (as we have, e.g, trees and animals in lands we 'colonized')
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Orfinn
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posted April 23, 2008 03:07 PM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 15:08, 23 Apr 2008.
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I'm pretty sure when the "Big Squish" (or whatever else) will come most will probably realize how insignificant the 'evil' colonization is (it's like deforestation!). At least if we haven't already destroyed countless alien species by then (as we have, e.g, trees and animals in lands we 'colonized')
I hope we have learned by then, but that may be to much to ask for.
Colonising otherwise uninhabitable worlds with the use of terraforming could be an option, but that demands alot of resources and effort so the most suitable start would be colonising habitable worlds at first. One for each country? or by groups like believers and scientists?
Yeah, yeah slightly off topic. But one thing is sure, religion are here to stay even if humanity prosper outside Earths boundaries without the use of it.
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