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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 02:31 PM |
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TheDeath:
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No, it is completely subjective and you didn't say anything at all. You only said that a preference (not "prefer") is objective just because... it is a preference??
But a person's preferences are what he prefers. 
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This is the last time I repeat myself. YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SLOWED DOWN, but you know, things get "used" even if WE DO NOT LIKE IT.
You're missing the point. When you're putting the rudder on your car, presumably you want to use it to help you travel. But if you will never need it, why use it? It'll only be "used" to slow you down.
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Thus subjective.
But humans are the ones making the explanations. When I see nature itself make a theory of some sort, then we'll talk.
Dagoth:
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For example, that beggar might prefer 100 dollars, but I for example might prefer to take 10 dollars, since it would be less of a disaster to lose it.
Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. If you offered a beggar a hundred dollars or ten dollars, and then some anti-material religous person jumped out from behind the corner and forced the beggar to take the $10, even if he would have otherwise taken the $100, that is imposing preferences upon others, which was the original topic of discusson.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 02:50 PM |
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But a person's preferences are what he prefers.
He!!! That's a good subjective word 
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You're missing the point. When you're putting the rudder on your car, presumably you want to use it to help you travel. But if you will never need it, why use it? It'll only be "used" to slow you down.
Energy can't be created nor destroyed, eh?
So it means it slows you down, therefore it DOES something. Maybe someone likes to be slowed down. Maybe he doesn't. But that is all subjective. On an objective scale, it's just some arrangement of molecules...
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But humans are the ones making the explanations.
So? What does this have to do with objectivity?
I can make an explanation myself about my feelings -- doesn't really mean they are objective now does it?
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Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. If you offered a beggar a hundred dollars or ten dollars, and then some anti-material religous person jumped out from behind the corner and forced the beggar to take the $10, even if he would have otherwise taken the $100, that is imposing preferences upon others, which was the original topic of discusson.
No, we discussed whether preferences are subjective or not
You said that it is objective to prefer 100$ over 10$. WRONG. Anti-material religious person you just exampled.
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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 02:55 PM |
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So it means it slows you down, therefore it DOES something.
It DOES something, yes, but you are not USING it. Take Neptune for example. It DOES something - it's revolving around the Sun. But no one is USING Neptune for anything.
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Maybe someone likes to be slowed down.
But then why use a rudder? Why not a bunch of bricks, which are simpler?
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You said that it is objective to prefer 100$ over 10$.
No, I didn't. What I said was that it is objective that the person in question prefers $100 over $10. Thus, another person, one who prefers $10 over $100, shoudn't impose his/her preference upon the first person.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 03:01 PM |
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It DOES something, yes, but you are not USING it. Take Neptune for example. It DOES something - it's revolving around the Sun. But no one is USING Neptune for anything.
The Universe is using it, however, you see?
(of course it's wrong to say that, but if it were correct, ONLY THEN it would be objective).
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But then why use a rudder? Why not a bunch of bricks, which are simpler?
Why play games? To have "fun". Maybe that person has fun that way. See why it's subjective?
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No, I didn't. What I said was that it is objective that the person in question prefers $100 over $10. Thus, another person, one who prefers $10 over $100, shoudn't impose his/her preference upon the first person.
I don't get the point. If someone prefers $100 over $10, then 100$ are not objectively "better" for humans than 10$, which was the intent.
It doesn't have anything to do with "imposing" preferences. If you impose something on someone, then it is subjective. So that proves my point.
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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 05:16 PM |
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Why play games? To have "fun". Maybe that person has fun that way. See why it's subjective?
But that's not the purpose of a rudder. A rudder is not a toy. If a person uses it as one, that's fine, but that's not how it's meant to be used.
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I don't get the point. If someone prefers $100 over $10, then 100$ are not objectively "better" for humans than 10$, which was the intent.
I'm not saying that they are. But the guy prefers $100 over $10, so you can't say that he actually prefers $10 over $100, because he doesn't. But some religious people do this all the time.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 05:18 PM |
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But that's not the purpose of a rudder.
Is that purpose objective? Is it a natural law or is the purpose "written" on the atoms or given to us by God?
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I'm not saying that they are. But the guy prefers $100 over $10, so you can't say that he actually prefers $10 over $100, because he doesn't. But some religious people do this all the time.
So what? I'm confused, what was this all about? It was about objectivity. What you said above is subjective preference for each person. It doesn't have anything to do with "imposing" them.
let's just drop the subject ok?
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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 05:21 PM |
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Is that purpose objective?
In a way. When a person builds a rudder, he is not intending for it to be used as a toy, even though it can be used that way. Also, look at a plastic bag. It says on it quite clearly, "This bag is not a toy."
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What you said above is subjective preference for each person. It doesn't have anything to do with "imposing" them.
Yes, but what each person prefers is objective. So when someone tries to impose their preferences upon others, because they think that they know better, are wrong.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 05:26 PM |
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In a way. When a person builds a rudder, he is not intending for it to be used as a toy, even though it can be used that way. Also, look at a plastic bag. It says on it quite clearly, "This bag is not a toy."
lol
seriously do you know what objective means?
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Yes, but what each person prefers is objective.
I'm not going to discuss this further as I have already explained this exact same reply on the whole page 4-5 times already.
what's subjective then? if everyone has different "objective" tastes, what's subjective?
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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 05:28 PM |
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what's subjective then? if everyone has different "objective" tastes, what's subjective?
What the best preference is.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 05:30 PM |
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LOL
please be serious. What you said is like saying "the best music genre, objectively, is XYZ, because most people voted for it".. then again, most people can say the Earth is Flat, that doesn't make it does it?
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Asheera
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posted August 16, 2008 05:53 PM |
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LOL at what mvass says
He says something like:
"Person A prefers the 100$ over the 10$. It is objective."
"Person B prefers the 10$ over the 100$. It is objective."
LOL, the above is clearly the definition of subjective: the fact that different people prefer different things
And btw, what has the "imposing preferences upon others" have to do with objectiveness/subjectiveness, hmm?
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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 06:10 PM |
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It seems that both of you are missing the point. Whether $100 is better than $10 is subjective. But it is objective that for some people, $100 is better than $10, and for others, $10 is better than $100. Of course different people prefer different things.
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What you said is like saying "the best music genre, objectively, is XYZ, because most people voted for it"
No, I'm saying "Most people think that XYZ is the best genre. You may think that ZYX is the best genre, but that doesn't mean that they do, but just don't know any better."
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And btw, what has the "imposing preferences upon others" have to do with objectiveness/subjectiveness, hmm?
Because some people, like Fortress_Jerusalem, think that what he believes in is objective, and that he should impose this upon all the wayward sheep.
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Asheera
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posted August 16, 2008 06:16 PM |
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But it is objective that for some people, $100 is better than $10, and for others, $10 is better than $100.
LOL
There's no such thing as objective for some people. Objective is absolute.
The fact that person A prefers 10$ while person B prefers 100$ shows that the human preferences are subjective.
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Because some people, like Fortress_Jerusalem, think that what he believes in is objective, and that he should impose this upon all the wayward sheep.
He thinks that way, doesn't make it true. And yes, imposing preferences upon others is wrong.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 06:17 PM |
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It seems that both of you are missing the point. Whether $100 is better than $10 is subjective. But it is objective that for some people, $100 is better than $10, and for others, $10 is better than $100. Of course different people prefer different things.
And that means it's subjective. I don't know why we're even arguing.
If someone prefers something it doesn't mean it's "objective" for them. If someone thinks the Earth is flat, does that mean it is objective (for them)? That only qualifies as subjective.
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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 06:20 PM |
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Asheera:
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There's no such thing as objective for some people. Objective is absolute.
I know. But that one person prefers $100 to $10 is objective. What I'm trying to say is that people aren't falsifying their preferences, so no one should be able to impose their preferences upon others.
TheDeath:
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If someone thinks the Earth is flat, does that mean it is objective (for them)?
No, but it means that they prefer thinking of the Earth as being that way. You can't say that they're secretly thinking that the Earth is round.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 06:22 PM |
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Mvass let's just drop it ok. It's clear you are not only contradicting yourself but also perhaps not serious at all. You know I'll let others judge this
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mvassilev
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posted August 16, 2008 07:51 PM |
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How am I contradicting myself? I think it's more likely that you just aren't understanding what I'm trying to say.
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Asheera
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posted August 16, 2008 09:00 PM |
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I know. But that one person prefers $100 to $10 is objective. What I'm trying to say is that people aren't falsifying their preferences, so no one should be able to impose their preferences upon others.
Ah, I understand now what you say mvass... but what has this to do with this thread and God in general?
Most religious people don't want to impose their preferences on others (they don't "force" you). The others that do it are simply "bad", and bad people exist without religion as well.
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TheDeath
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posted August 16, 2008 09:02 PM |
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I was still talking about the objective/subjective discussion about "usage" and "usefulness"
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mvassilev
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posted August 17, 2008 12:21 AM |
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Asheera:
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Ah, I understand now what you say mvass... but what has this to do with this thread and God in general?
TheDeath said that "prefer" is not an objective term. I'm trying to show him otherwise.
TheDeath:
Again, I see no contradiction.
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