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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted September 06, 2008 10:56 PM |
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It's something I find hard to explain, so I'll phrase this like mvass would've. A prayer definitely can work. It has purpose,since at the least it strengthens a conviction in you and works like a placebo. (ok, not exactly like mvass, but still)
also, I think it strengthens the idea/ notion of a God, making it actually stronger.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted September 06, 2008 11:00 PM |
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Here is a copy&paste from me from CH:Quote:
It's really easy to think up a child-parent relationship, albeit one where the kid is ALLOWED (free will!) to do whatever he wants.
Is the kid obligated to request help from his mom? Not at all. But if he doesn't "need" the mom's help, he won't need it when he puts his hand in the fire either! (analogous to Hell -- where you get away from God).
The kid does something stupid (puts hand in fire) -- since he didn't request his mom's help, it means he doesn't need it. Plain and simple. God is not selfish or a "bastard", but if you don't "worship" Him which means request His help or talk to Him, then it means you don't WANT Him -- so why would He help you later, if you didn't want Him? He has to give you, after all, free will.
Oh btw, you can't "use" God with prayer -- prayer is like speaking with your parents! You can't control your parents with your "prayers", for example, they might not buy you a car even if you want. However, God does love people. On the other hand, you must love Him as well and be honest in your prayers, and not make some kind of "tool" out of God (that is: a genie that grants you wishes).
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 07, 2008 05:51 AM |
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Dagoth:
Indeed. That's the way I'd put it.
TheDeath:
The flaw with your analogy is that the kid puts his own hand in the fire. Humans don't send themselves to hell. A more accurate analogy would be to say that the mom punished the kid for putting his hand in the fire by putting him in the oven for all eternity. And that, to quote GOW, is sick. 
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Eccentric Opinion
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angelito
Honorable
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proud father of a princess
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posted September 07, 2008 09:30 AM |
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I would say there are more than just 1 flaw in TheDeath's quote..
1. The kid actually can be sure his mom exists, because if it won't "worship" her, he may end up getting a slap on his back and it is obvious that she was the one doing it, while on the other hand if u don't worship God, and end up slipping on the street and landing on your back still may be a coincidence due to a icey street..
2. And a mom personally tells a kid what to do and what not, and doesn't leave all her messages in a book...means she doesn't fear the discussion coming over specific topics..
3....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Doomforge
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posted September 07, 2008 11:18 AM |
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Quote:
Humans don't send themselves to hell.
"Hell" is something created in middle ages to brainwash poor peasants. "Endless torment" simply doesn't exist in Christianity, which I think you refer to 
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Galev
Famous Hero
Galiv :D
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posted September 07, 2008 08:08 PM |
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Note
Quote:
I can prove it doesn't work, with the help of Christianity itself, Ash. And I will.
Step 1) You pray.
Step 2) God supposedly receives the prayer.
Step 3) God either grants it or does not. Should he grant it, skip to Step 7.
....
Please note that if you are talking about Christian Faith and not about religious behaviour the first step is faith (even if it sounds over-used it is true). Without faith, without the evidence in your soul/mind/heart you may do any religious deeds, it won't be the same and there's not sense in talking about their "use" or "success" or whatever. As you can not understand (and you don't want to understand either) these things without faith. I know. Back when I was pretty much of an atheist I did not care about these questions. Thank God that when they started to interest me, I had a Christian to pose my questions (in real life, face to face).
The problem is that it's hard to find or determine a "real" believer as humans can not see the soul. However God sees them and I believe that if someone wants to find honest and true answers about God, they will.
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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TheDeath
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posted September 07, 2008 08:37 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:40, 07 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
A more accurate analogy would be to say that the mom punished the kid for putting his hand in the fire by putting him in the oven for all eternity. And that, to quote GOW, is sick.
Uh huh, not really, and you really like to quote GOW it seems. When the kid puts his hand in the fire, it's like he is "cast away" from his mom. The mother doesn't prevent him from being cast away -- after all, she values her child's FREEDOM. Overly-protective parents are annoying to the children, even though it's in their best interest. Since she loves them, she lets them do whatever they want, if that's what they WANT. If they return to her later, she forgives them, if they're truly sorry. Where's the missing love here?
You can't possibly be a dictator that protects them and call that love! While this is in their best interest, they will surely not be happy without freedom.
@angelito: 1st: "he is sure that the mom exists", why because his EYES tell him? Why the EYES?
2nd: if you're a mother for every human on Earth, are you going to tell each of them individually without a book? How about in 2000 years? (let's say you're still alive)
How many times? When will it end?
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mvassilev
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posted September 07, 2008 10:04 PM |
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So, wait, let me see if I got this right. The kid hurts himself, right? And his mother "casts him away", whatever that means. Never mind that this action hurt no one except for the kid - so the natural consequences of the action should be punishment enough. And no mother would cast her child away for putting his/her hand in a fire.
Quote:
You can't possibly be a dictator that protects them and call that love! While this is in their best interest, they will surely not be happy without freedom.
Wait. You can't have it both ways. On one hand, you're saying that God isn't a dictator because he doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything. On the other hand, he has no qualms about punishing people for that action. That makes as much sense as doing nothing to prevent an assassination, but then torturing the assassin for the rest of his/her life. You know, if there is more punishment than the natural one, and it is for an action that can't be seen as harming anybody (i.e. sodomy), and yet that action is punished, then that's rather dictatorial.
Quote:
if you're a mother for every human on Earth, are you going to tell each of them individually without a book? How about in 2000 years? (let's say you're still alive)
Hey, if you're omnipotent, it should be no problem, right?
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Doomforge
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posted September 07, 2008 10:11 PM |
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I don't see God torturing people around (), too many bad sh*t goes on around the world and nobody gets punished for anything. As for endless torment, it does not exist. So, what are you trying to prove, mvass? Whats written in the Bible is the old law of the Jews, and God is used to strengthen the meaning.. I think it's quite obvious since you don't see God running around punishing people in our world.
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mvassilev
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posted September 07, 2008 10:15 PM |
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Doomforge
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posted September 07, 2008 10:18 PM |
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Hmm. It's mentioned, but never as "endless torment".. it's rather eternal death (although as far as I recall, one fragment is pretty confusing and implies torment, but the others don't seem to..), or the lack of afterlife, which seems adequate for crimes (not too cruel and pretty just - obviously such people shouldn't be redeemed, should they? )
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Asheera
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posted September 07, 2008 10:22 PM |
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Ok I'm lazy so I'll just copy-paste the stuff from CH
People, God does NOT punish you or send you to Hell!
Look, in the following examples, you are "evil" (let's say a criminal)
NOTE: I'm not saying that you're evil, this is just an example!
You are evil. You chose to be evil. After you die, you will go to the place where other evil people go as well, since that fits you. You reject Heaven when doing "evil" things. You see? This "eternal torture" of Hell comes from other "evil" people that went there. People like you. What's the matter? Are you scared of yourself?
You can't just go in Heaven where other "good" people are. That place is not for you.
Consider a group of terrorists and a group of normal people. You're a terrorist. You go to the terrorist group because that fits you, even though terrorists "suffer" more than normal people (they also betray and kill each other, etc). Now replace "terrorist" with "evil" and when you get the "evil group" you replace it with "Hell".
NOTE: I'm not saying atheists are "evil" by any means! In fact, most "good" atheists arrive in Heaven. Believing in God doesn't make you more "good" than those atheists that are very benevolent, BUT at least it makes you understand that doing "evil" things is just wrong, and also teaches you to repent from your sins.
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Doomforge
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posted September 07, 2008 10:38 PM |
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Well, since people are meant to be judged by faith first, and then by actions.. it looks like atheists (or uncertain ppl) can still be redeemed in Christianity.. unless they say "omg God is stupid blah blah blah I hate him". If they lived a good life, that is. 
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TheDeath
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posted September 07, 2008 11:15 PM |
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Quote:
The kid hurts himself, right? And his mother "casts him away", whatever that means.
You don't get it, do you? The kid casts HIMSELF away. Of course you don't expect murderers that hate God, for example, to go to Heaven (or let's say "God's place") -- they wouldn't even have a place there at all, why would they 'fake' themselves? He was there all along to forgive your sins whenever you were sorry (honestly), but you rejected Him. It's your fault
Ash summarized it well, but there's something more to the "atheists are good" thing. Everybody SINS. Religious people can sin more than atheists. For this reason, you need forgiveness from God, because He loves you thus forgives you, only if you are HONEST about it. Then, most atheists don't repent or are sorry about it (it is my firm belief that repenting to a priest is only EASIER; if you are truly honest about it, you don't need a priest, but you have to realize that with each "sin" you are closer to the Devil). It is HARD to be that sorry for your sins, which is why repenting is easier.
God lets you sin. He lets you choose. But if you're sorry about it, He also loves you (thus forgives you).
BTW: what I said above has nothing to do with the existence of God -- it only explains the viewpoint of it, whether you think it's true or not. Frankly I'm getting tired of people saying "God is a bastard!" or other nonsense. Philosophically (even if He doesn't exist), he has the perfect combination of freedom and love.
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Galev
Famous Hero
Galiv :D
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posted September 08, 2008 12:36 AM |
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Edited by Galev at 00:56, 08 Sep 2008.
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(edited)
Well, I read the above stuff. I don't think I shall go into Death's matter which's aim I don't really see...
BUT: Asheera, please let me correct you as This:
Quote:
I'm not saying atheists are "evil" by any means! In fact, most "good" atheists arrive in Heaven. Believing in God doesn't make you more "good" than those atheists that are very benevolent, BUT at least it makes you understand that doing "evil" things is just wrong, and also teaches you to repent from your sins.
Is certainly not Christianity (not as far as I know...)
Every single person on this plane is well, "evil". Certainly not good more precisely. It is said many times in the Bible. One of them:Romans 3, 23 [For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;]
And by the way, a dangerous mistake is: "A man who does not believ in God, however he is very good and sint." Not believing in God is a sin. Not believing in his son is a sin as well. (read at least one of the evangeliums <hope they are called that name>
AND: Man is not judged by his acts or deeds (at least the Bible says)
Ephesians 2, 8:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
And hell exists if you refer to the Bible. Try a simple search [King James]. If you do not refer to the Bible, then do not say it's Christian at least.
If it is not Christian it can be not true? Well, I do not judge, God does. I myself found the Bible true. And I'm happy to be able to write it honestly: I found evidence in faith.
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted September 08, 2008 12:53 AM |
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Well, I haven't. All I know about hell is stated in the divina commedia... Which more or less means that hell is filled with irony and that the first layers aren't really much of a punishment (atheists aren't punished in divina commedia, they only never get in God's domain...)
But short answer is: "no, I do not know the hell as is stated in the bible"
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Galev
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Galiv :D
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posted September 08, 2008 12:58 AM |
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I personally don't think hell is like as in Dante's piece of art.
Note: In the above post I asked if you read the Bible, as you were arguing about Hell.
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 01:36 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 01:41, 08 Sep 2008.
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@The_Death
Philosophically, the idea of an omnipotent creature aka God is more or less what you are talking about. BUT...
...The God of the Bible however, notably the one in the old testament is, as Dawkins eloquently put it: "Jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak, a vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevelont bully" If you insist on the notion that the Bible is the word of God, and His discription of himself by definiotion must be correct, you get pretty much all those fine qualities.
Hmm, sliding the subject... where were we... at Hell? Oh yes.
Do words such as Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus and Hades ring a bell? Well maybe they don't as all of these words are translated as Hell in never Bibles. The word Hell in the Bible, whether translated from Sheol, Hadees, Gehenna, or Tartarus, yields no countenance to the doctrine of endless punishment. It is such wonders that a few new "translations" can do. You can call it the evolution of Christianity. I call it a clever marketing trick.
Firstly Tartaros is a direct copy from old Romanian underworld. It is mentioned in the Bible... once. "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" Not an eternal place of punishment, but a place where angels wait for their judgement. So not our hell I'm afraid.
Hades has the same meaning as Sheol, but the word is of Greek origin instead of Hebrew. It means the under-world, the religion of the dead or simply the grave. Sheol occurs exactly sixty-four times and is translated hell thirty-two times, pit three times, and grave twenty-nine times. Who ever selected the translations must know God really well.
Gehenna is the word that is mostly understood as Hell in the Bible (used 12 times). So this must be the eternal place for torment and anguish... Nope. Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, a real place as known as Babylon to the jews of that time. In the Old Testament it is the valley of Hinnom (Ge Hinnom), subsequently desecrated by idolatry, and especially by Moloch worship, and defiled by Josiah on this account. (See I Kings 11: 7; II Kings 23:10.) (Jer. 7:31; 19:10-14; Isa. 30:33; Tophet). Used according to Jewish tradition, as the common sewage of the city, the corpses of the worst criminals were flung into it unburied, and fires were lit to purify the contaminated air. It then became a word which secondarily implied the severest judgment which a Jewish court could pass upon a criminal-the casting forth of his unburied corpse amid the fires and worms of this polluted valley.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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mvassilev
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posted September 08, 2008 02:45 AM |
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Asheera and TheDeath:
If God doesn't send you to Hell, then how do you get there? 
TheDeath:
Quote:
Of course you don't expect murderers that hate God, for example, to go to Heaven
As far as I'm aware, most murderers aren't Satanists. In fact, since 95% or so of the US population is Chrisitan, it makes sense to say that most American murderers are Christian too. But Christianity is based on loving God...
Quote:
Everybody SINS.
Hey, what happened to "innocence"? If you don't realize that you're doing something wrong, then you are innocent, are you not?
Also, here's another one of my problems with Abrahamic religions - the idea of Original Sin. If Adam and Eve lived without sinning (or even the concept of sin), then how could they sin? Especially since they didn't know what it was.
Quote:
God lets you sin. He lets you choose.
That's like saying that the police gives you the freedom to murder.
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Doomforge
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posted September 08, 2008 10:27 AM |
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Because they do. Do you see a policeman every time you think about something that breaks the law?
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