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Doomforge
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posted October 04, 2008 06:05 PM |
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we ask you atheists that question all the time.. 
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted October 04, 2008 06:09 PM |
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Which?
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Doomforge
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 04, 2008 06:11 PM |
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Quote:
When will you finally be honest and say something like: "Sorry, I don't know!"..
Looks like both sides can't be really honest..
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted October 04, 2008 06:24 PM |
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Quote:
When will you finally be honest and say something like: "Sorry, I don't know!"..
I said:Quote:
I know, it sounds too "philosophical" and "weird" (or "nice") but I don't think about it that much, after all I know it's impossible to visualize how it would be like, so I just let it go.
And sorry if I made the impression that I know how it looks like or if I can visualize a world without time. 
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JapanGamer
Known Hero
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posted October 04, 2008 06:47 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The truth is, no one can rightfully say for sure there's a God, or that there is no God, until they have some true understanding from some relical undeniable knowledge.
But how do you know that's the truth
And how can you find undenyable knowledge if you can't even be sure that the pen you're holding exists?
What you're saying is that we can't know anything, basically.
I disagree.
I never said I know the truth, I said something along the lines of I know how much that I know is reasonable. (I wont go into what I know because it is complicated, and seemingly less than any of you know)
We can know a lot, and if we know we could be mistaken, about what we know, then we know a whole lot more Yet still less than people who know it all. But we're not talking in terms of quality are we?
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Pictures of god
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 04, 2008 09:55 PM |
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JapanGamer:
Quote:
A pen running out of ink, is one of several things. Most people believe that the pen is real, but they on the same side question what is real.
You missed the point. I wasn't talking about whether the pen is real, I was talking about whether a pen is fundamentally flawed. It isn't. It's supposed to write, and it does. It's supposed to run out of ink, and it does. It doesn't mean that pens are bad. Same with reality. And views of it may improve, just as pen designs may.
Or, to use a different analogy, compare reality to OSs. Different people run different realities, but their realities are compatible most of the time. Some people run Reality 95, some run Reality XP, and some new-age hippies run Reality Vista. And some just use completely different realities, like MacRealityX. In the case of Reality 95-Vista, they are used by the vast majority of people - and are useful not just because they are good pieces of software (indeed, they may not be) but because everyone else is using them, so all of the programs (ranging from Interaction with Other People to Using Stuff) is made for a certain Reality, although, as time goes by, our Reality is upgraded - although it's important to maintain reverse compatibility.
Also, convincing someone that your Reality is more accurate than their Reality is just as difficult as convincing someone that PC>Mac.
Bak:
Quote:
You can only understand how wrong it is to define love once you start feeling it.
There you go again - being presumptuous. You assume that I've never felt love. You are wrong - I have. And just because I felt and feel it doesn't mean that I can't understand its origins, evolutionary purpose, and material nature. If you know how a computer works, it doesn't make that computer any better or worse. Same here. I can enjoy love as well as anybody else can - perhaps more so, because I don't just attribute it to "magical feeling" or something like that - even if it does feel that way.
TheDeath:
Completely off topic, but, didn't you have four red stars in the past?  Or do I need to patch my Reality?
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted October 04, 2008 11:13 PM |
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Quote:
Completely off topic, but, didn't you have four red stars in the past? Or do I need to patch my Reality?
Nope
I never had 4 red stars
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 04, 2008 11:51 PM |
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JapanGamer
Known Hero
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posted October 05, 2008 12:19 AM |
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Lol the tyranny of scripture.. That guy's pretty smart but he leaves out one thing, the sadness of those who give their life to the bible and everything that comes with it. It's sad, they aren't stupid they're just messed up. Probably (i cant 100% deny anything)
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Pictures of god
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baklava
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posted October 05, 2008 12:32 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 00:36, 05 Oct 2008.
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I don't know, MVas, I just can't understand how anyone who ever felt love can say:
"Love - protecting and helping your children or your mate, and emotional benefits. Primitive."
I can't. I fail to grip it. All my thoughts about anything important in life are based on the notion of love as the one thing that keeps mankind from breaking apart in this whole mess it created. Love on tens of different levels - loving your children, your friends, your wife or girlfriend, your parents, your people, any people, nature, thought, ideals, anything, everything...
See that's one of the parts where my views closely resemble the original Christian ones. Only through love can we be the caretakers of this world. Love is far from a simple chemical process to give you some emotional benefits - if it was, it would've already been defined and accepted that way hundreds of years ago. But I don't really believe that any of us, especially us 17-year-olds, can describe it in one sentence. It seems to me as the most important thing we've achieved through evolution or divine guidance or however we got to it. It is a gift and our only key to true achievement, both of ourselves and of the world around us. And as such, it deserves much more attention than something that simply makes you feel nice. Marijuana makes you feel nice too.
I don't know. Maybe I'm mistaken. But if I ever believed in anything, it's this. The only two things that basically connect all the religions in the world are the notion of a higher power and love. Perhaps it's time for us to wonder whether love is the higher power... 
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mvassilev
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posted October 05, 2008 12:55 AM |
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You can't grip it? Perhaps we are speaking different philosophical languages.
Anyway, human beings are very complicated creatures, but, in the end, they come down to kinetic, potential, thermal, and other kinds of energy, and carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and other elements. The complexity comes from all the possible ways they could be combined - and how they can interact with their surroundings. For me to explain, let us take an unspecified hundred-trillion-digit number. It has a hundred trillion digits, and each digit can be 0-9. Pretty complicated, right? Yet it consists of the digits 0-9 - pretty basic math. Humans are, IMO, much the same way, only with even more complexity. Love is one such example. It doesn't make it any better or worse that it is that way. It feels good, yes, but you're right: it is more than just that that makes it so significant. The way love is different from marijuana is because love is so much greater and older a part of human life than marijuana is. It's also a lot more complicated.
You can pick marijuana, but you can't get love off of the ground. It requires interpersonal relationships with people who are just as complicated as you are. Complicating matters further is culture - influencing the way people should behave according to society, and often sending mixed messages. This, of course, further complicates the matter.
Quote:
Love is far from a simple chemical process to give you some emotional benefits - if it was, it would've already been defined and accepted that way hundreds of years ago.
It's not just a chemical process. (Well, ultimately it is, but it's more complicated than just that.) It's also a social thing, which, IMO, is basically a chemical process, only with further complexity. And with all the social reactions and counter-reactions and internal things and so on make it a really really complicated thing. But I don't see what's supernatural about it. It's very pleasant to the individuals, and can have very different effects on society, which then reflect upon the two individuals, which ripple back, and millions of people are doing this, and they are all part of society, and...
It's an extremely complicated thing.
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Eccentric Opinion
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted October 05, 2008 12:56 AM |
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It is what it is.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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baklava
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posted October 05, 2008 01:47 AM |
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I never said love is supernatural, on the contrary, it's completely natural - who says that nature isn't a form of divinity in itself?
We simply have different views on the issue, but we agree about one thing - it's complicated. So let's just say it's complicated and call it a day. Those who think like you will get what you're saying, those who think like me will understand what I'm saying. And that's where it ends. No one says we all have to think the same.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 05, 2008 08:28 AM |
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Quote:
And made of cheese
That's ridiculous Baklava, you can't make cheese out of milk.
Wait... bad example
Anyway, Mvass or Bak have you read the book 'Enduring Love' by Ian McKellen per chance?
Mvass reminds me of a character in it who is convinced that love is just biology and that all we do in love is just ensure that we get a good ****, whereas another character complains that he just reduces everything to science and something gets lost in the translation.
Sounds familiar anyway
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 05, 2008 08:33 AM |
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Quote:
It is what it is.
No it's not!
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted October 05, 2008 12:29 PM |
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Quote:
It's not just a chemical process. (Well, ultimately it is, but it's more complicated than just that.)
As for the fascination, it's phenylalanine. As for love.. I guess it's a social matter.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 05, 2008 12:36 PM |
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What do you mean it's phenylalanine?
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted October 05, 2008 01:00 PM |
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I mean that this substance is directly responsible for the feeling of fascination (aka love. I think that it's miscalled so I call it "fascination" instead )
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TheDeath
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posted October 05, 2008 01:17 PM |
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@mvass: it's interesting to note how you say that "it's too complicated, but ultimately it boils down to xyz" (when of course, if it's too complicated, then you don't know for certain), while when you ask complicated questions (such as: "how can a world exist without time?") that demand complicated answers, and I reply with "it's too complicated to comprehend" I get the feeling that you're thinking that's not even an answer.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 05, 2008 01:25 PM |
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Quote:
I mean that this substance is directly responsible for the feeling of fascination (aka love. I think that it's miscalled so I call it "fascination" instead )
I think what you're thinking of is the chemical phenylethylalanine which can create euphoria.
How can an essential amino acid (phenylalanine) be responsible for fascination?
Without ANY of the essential amino acids you wouldn't be able to do much
But I don't think you can attribute love or even fascination to just one chemical.
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John says to live above hell.
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