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angelito
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posted October 03, 2008 03:45 PM |
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Quote:
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Why is one's life futile if one doesn't believe in things greater than self? Makes no sense. I don't believe in anything supernatural, yet I'd hardly call my life futile and empty.
You will after you die, all these things that you think "fill" yourself will no longer be there, see? 
Or maybe not and YOU wake up realizing you wasted tons of times and thoughts in your life..
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TheDeath
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posted October 03, 2008 03:56 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 15:58, 03 Oct 2008.
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As if it'll matter anyway...
No my response wasn't at that. It was used to explain the "eternal" emptiness you see, all the things mvass said that make him full, are only either temporary, or simply exist in TIME, and thus are subject to temporal constraints. People say that "eternal suffering" is too much etc... but compared to WHAT? to the temporal illusion that we have now (e.g: mvass' list)? Compared to those things that give us the illusion that we 'fill' ourselves? (illusion because in the end, it won't matter, since they are temporary so to speak).
No person on his death bed would wish more money and all the other "things" that 'fill' mvass' life, for example. It means that those things don't "fill" him at all.
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baklava
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posted October 03, 2008 07:15 PM |
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@Mvass
I saw this coming.
See, a man needs to believe in greater things and how to get closer to them in order to improve himself - here, I don't mean simply God, I mean all those ideals Christ was talking about, such as love, peace, freedom, hope etc. Because, if a man believes in nothing, he can never rise to a greater level than he is now - at best, he stagnates in his current state (and he got to the current state because of his forefathers who once believed in something). And mankind should change, it needs to evolve further, to think, to rise to new levels. It's not required to be a Christian for that, of course. There were many non-Christians who believed in similar ideals. Perhaps it is enough to be a good, benevolent person to reach a sort of community with God - you don't have to believe in him in strict Christian sense. But you have to believe in something. Else you become little more than a slave to the most primitive of your urges. One needs to fully comprehend the aforementioned ideals in order to form this Earth into a better place; and those ideals are quite prominent, among other places, in Christian philosophy.
You don't have to be a Christian to realize them, but you can't be a true Christian if you don't. That's the point. 
No one said that people who do not believe are depraved of feelings, that they can't feel joy or "do stuff". It's just that they need that little dose of enlightenment and understanding on how to make themselves and the world a brighter place, in order for all of that to make sense. People simply feel better when they truly believe. It makes them feel more unique, more purposeful. A material person can feel unique and purposeful too, but on a far different level than a spiritual one. The material and spiritual views on emptiness vary greatly. Not everyone can understand that, of course. Many people can't think beyond Earthly pleasure. Even some of those who call themselves believers belong in that cathegory too - with the "I'll just follow the laws and I'll end up in heaven" attitude. That is wrong.
Jesus was against that. Faith is not meant to be a set of laws. It's an understanding and a connection with a higher purpose.
By "materialism", I meant a sort of fanatical consumerism that many people indulge in, especially in the Western world (though also wherever it's possible). Equation of goods with happiness. Goods and pleasures which are, as Death said, the last thing that will matter a few years later, on the deathbed.
Please don't see all of this as an insult. I never meant that you are an empty person, or that you lead an empty life. I am merely speaking a different language, one that's a bit on the spiritual side as opposed to your material one. You can see it as a different philosophical view.
@Angelito
Well, if no sort of God exists, if none of it is true, if there is indeed nothing mystical and unknown about the Universe, a spiritual person will still feel better in his final moment than a material one. And none of those thoughts are wasted. Thoughts are never wasted. They certainly weren't wrong, because that person tried to find an answer to some eternal questions, to enlighten himself, to improve the world, to think... And the material person spent his life gathering things which he loses as soon as he gathers them. In the moment of death, a spiritual person has the only two things that count as an advantage at that time - peace and hope. Maybe futile hope, but I'd sure prefer to spend my final moment happy than resigned and thinking about how they'll just put me in a box and bury me. So, we might ask ourselves once again... Which of those persons wasted their time?
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Asheera
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posted October 03, 2008 07:25 PM |
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Well said Baklava
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Doomforge
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posted October 03, 2008 07:56 PM |
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yeah
I don't think that believing in a God is a waste of time.. is there really anything that's a waste of time in our life? What's the point of reading books, riding a bike etc? If we go by "usefulness", we will end up in a world were people are machines doing only what's necessary and beneficial.. reduced to apemen again because there aren't many totally vital points in our life, even though we're intelligent beings.. all we need is to work, eat, work, sleep, work, get kids.. and work. Ah, did I mentioned working? 
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mvassilev
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posted October 04, 2008 02:51 AM |
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TheDeath:
But if you're in oblivion - nonexistence - it's not like you'll feel the emptiness, anyway.
Bak:
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See, a man needs to believe in greater things and how to get closer to them in order to improve himself - here, I don't mean simply God, I mean all those ideals Christ was talking about, such as love, peace, freedom, hope etc.
Why's that?  A man may consciously or unconcisously thinking of himself while he is loving, or spreading peace, freedom, and hope. Indeed, those actions may well be the result of self-interest.
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Else you become little more than a slave to the most primitive of your urges.
Primitive urges? Let's see here:
Love - protecting and helping your children or your mate, and emotional benefits. Primitive.
Peace - absence of violence. A form of self-preservation, as well as benefitting from others being preserved as well. As primitive as the results from these things.
Freedom - a positive thing that lets people accomplish more. Them accomplishing more benefits you. Primitive.
Hope - a view that makes you feel better about bad things. It may be in your interest, so, Primitive.
Quote:
By "materialism", I meant a sort of fanatical consumerism that many people indulge in, especially in the Western world (though also wherever it's possible). Equation of goods with happiness.
I call myself a materialist, but I don't adhere to "fanatical consumerism", whatever that means. Perhaps it would be more accurate to call your definition of it "commerciocentralism" - being centered around consumer goods and nothing but consumer goods - which I certainly don't adhere to. My definiton of materialism is quite different - it is that there is nothing beyond the physical world, and that everything, including emotions, is physical and material in some form, so, according to my definition, all happiness is derived from material things.
Doomforge:
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I don't think that believing in a God is a waste of time.. is there really anything that's a waste of time in our life? What's the point of reading books, riding a bike etc?
That depends on how you view things. Why do you read books and ride a bike? Because it's fun and it makes you feel good in some way. Why do people believe in God? Either because it makes them feel good in some way, or because they want salvation. In the first case, it's analagous. In the second case, it's not. It depends on whether it's an end in itself or not.
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JapanGamer
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posted October 04, 2008 03:01 AM |
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Nothing I ever say in here is taken seriously but who are you to say there is no god, and who are you to say there is? Both of you are screwed. Unless of course you truly have proof enough which defines reality, you cannot get away with bestowing the world your ignorance and arrogance.
And who am I to say both of you are wrong? Someone who appearingly knows clearly the difference between what we know inside and outside of the box (what we see) and what that actually means and how possible, and impossible it may be. There are many Grey areas grasshoppers.
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mvassilev
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posted October 04, 2008 03:09 AM |
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Reality is a convenient thing that most people use, and agree upon most of its instances. The difficulty comes when various inconsistencies between different people's points of view appear.
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JapanGamer
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posted October 04, 2008 03:11 AM |
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Which is key to understanding the frailty of the human belief system.
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mvassilev
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posted October 04, 2008 03:18 AM |
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Not necessarily. When your pen runs out of ink, you get a new one. It doesn't mean that the pen is somehow flawed - it's working the way it's supposed to. Maybe designs will improve. Same with reality.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 04, 2008 03:22 AM |
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What if you decide you accept God's love after you die?
I mean, it seems a bit childish to me if God's like nah it's too late now, you had your chance now burn 
Trust me, it's really hard to do it for LOVE, you'll do it for fear, and that is NOT love, you have to be HONEST with yourself and truly be sorry for what you have done.
TRULY. Not faking lol. That is childish.
Doesn't matter how hard it is, what happens if you do do it
And 99% of christians don't do it out of love LOL
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JapanGamer
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posted October 04, 2008 08:04 AM |
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A pen running out of ink, is one of several things. Most people believe that the pen is real, but they on the same side question what is real. They believe in what they see, not that what they see is only what they see. But maybe what they see is all reality is? Maybe the question is irrelevant. The truth is, no one can rightfully say for sure there's a God, or that there is no God, until they have some true understanding from some relical undeniable knowledge.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 04, 2008 09:45 AM |
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The truth is, no one can rightfully say for sure there's a God, or that there is no God, until they have some true understanding from some relical undeniable knowledge.
But how do you know that's the truth 
And how can you find undenyable knowledge if you can't even be sure that the pen you're holding exists?
What you're saying is that we can't know anything, basically.
I disagree.
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
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posted October 04, 2008 10:01 AM |
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Mvass, I said what I had to say, and I certainly can't change your mind, so I'm not going to engage in another pointless quote war. You can't understand what you don't want to understand.
You think there's nothing beyond what we see with our little minds and feel under our little fingers, you think whatever we do is just for our own basic self-interest, ok, that's your choice But I didn't spend 3 million years evolving just to think like that in the end. You can't expect to comprehend the points that spiritual people are trying to make if you oppose them from the start. And you definitely can't expect everyone to think like you do.
You can only understand how wrong it is to define love once you start feeling it. So, at some point in life, you may change your opinion. But, again, whatever you do, it's your choice 
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 04, 2008 10:17 AM |
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Hey Bak,
maybe there is something beyond the spiritual realm that spiritual people can't comprehend with their feeble souls and ethereal minds, something way beyond the mundane boring old supernatural and a plan greater than the higher purpose of the universe and our souls are just materialistic
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted October 04, 2008 02:19 PM |
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Doesn't matter how hard it is, what happens if you do do it
God forgives
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And 99% of christians don't do it out of love LOL
So?
who said that those who want a "ticket" to Heaven actually go to Heaven? Using "most" Christians as an example is not very accurate, it would be better to use for example, Jesus or teachings like that.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 04, 2008 03:46 PM |
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Heaven sounds like an almighty boring place now, thanks Death
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted October 04, 2008 03:47 PM |
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Hehe I get your feeling but you have to think outside the box, you can't get bored when you don't have "time"
I know, it sounds too "philosophical" and "weird" (or "nice") but I don't think about it that much, after all I know it's impossible to visualize how it would be like, so I just let it go.
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baklava
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posted October 04, 2008 04:26 PM |
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Quote:
Hey Bak,
maybe there is something beyond the spiritual realm that spiritual people can't comprehend with their feeble souls and ethereal minds, something way beyond the mundane boring old supernatural and a plan greater than the higher purpose of the universe and our souls are just materialistic
And made of cheese
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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angelito
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posted October 04, 2008 06:00 PM |
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Quote:
Hehe I get your feeling but you have to think outside the box, you can't get bored when you don't have "time"
I know, it sounds too "philosophical" and "weird" (or "nice") but I don't think about it that much, after all I know it's impossible to visualize how it would be like, so I just let it go.
The problem is, you can't visualize it, because you have no clue how "it" looks like. No one kows, except those who are already "there".
You always sound like you have been to God already and talked to him about everything. (no offense, just looks like that from my point of view).
When will you finally be honest and say something like: "Sorry, I don't know!"..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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