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TheDeath
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posted September 30, 2008 01:14 PM |
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TA, I don't know how to explain this, but I don't think you got the point of it. By following your logic, which I understand what it is, we would be "robots" or without free will -- that is, your logic of omniscience contradicts freedom completely, and that's where it fails.
I explained a lot of pages back an alternative way to look at this, with a different logic (hey don't hit me, we can go back to logic is subjective later  ) that works in both "cases".
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 01:35 PM |
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No we can have free will, I have no problem with that, it's just that knowledge of the future changes everything.
God knows what we are going to do with this free will and what choices we are going to make as a result.
Our choices are either because of us and what we decide (we are made by God) or external influence (everything else is made by God too  )
Unless of course you argue that there is no set future in that the future cannot be known even by God, that is reasonable, although a very complex philosophical issue.
However, if this is the case, then God is not omniscient.
____________
John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted September 30, 2008 01:44 PM |
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That's why there's this flaw in this logic (well unless you want a contradiction):
If he is omniscient with the above logic, then we are not "free" but made up like robots.
If we are free, with the above logic, then God is not omniscient.
So to have both we need a different logic
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 01:59 PM |
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I believe there is a contradiction.
Theology aside, I believe that even though I have a choice to do certain things, I am only ever going to make one of those choices which will lead to one future.
But ignoring this dead-end philosophical argument and back to theology, assuming God is all knowing and omniscient:
Why doesn't God stop evil if he loves us? So that we can grow morally and spiritually... with freedom to do evil as well as good ... and to confront the occurence of suffering and so on, right?
But why not design us so that we feel less pain, with more empathy so that we do less evil to others, make us better leaners so that we don't have to suffer so much to grow ad infinitum....
If god truly loves us, why?
Everyone goes on about how terrible the world is
God could have very easily created a world in which there was less suffering.
That he did not do so is proof that either he doesn't exist or is not worthy of worship.
This isn't even talking about the problem of poor design.
This is cold-hearted.
This is the problem of evil.
____________
John says to live above hell.
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Asheera
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posted September 30, 2008 02:02 PM |
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Quote:
But why not design us so that we feel less pain, with more empathy so that we do less evil to others
In the beginning God created us exactly like that. But the humans are greedy, and wanted "knowledge" (eating from that tree), which also included the knowledge of suffering, etc.
So because we have so much suffering today is not God's fault, but the greedy nature of humans because of the free will.
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TheDeath
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posted September 30, 2008 02:02 PM |
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Quote:
But ignoring this dead-end philosophical argument and back to theology, assuming God is all knowing and omniscient:
Why doesn't God stop evil if he loves us? So that we can grow morally and spiritually... with freedom to do evil as well as good ... and to confront the occurence of suffering and so on, right?
If a mother loves her kid, she will help him with homework but not do it for him forever.
She can just easily restrict whatever he does, but that will make him hate her for not giving him freedom -- you know like most teenagers. He might regret it later on, which is why God loves and forgives. Perfect combination of freedom and love. If you love someone, you let him do what he wants, not make him what you want him to do -- accept him for what he is.
Quote:
But why not design us so that we feel less pain, with more empathy so that we do less evil to others, make us better leaners so that we don't have to suffer so much to grow ad infinitum....
He made us that way, we wanted knowledge, that includes knowledge about this "pain" and all that. We wanted, He gave -- isn't that love?
Most suffering happens because of what we have chosen etc...
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 02:09 PM |
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Quote:
If a mother loves her kid, she will help him with homework but not do it for him forever.
She can just easily restrict whatever he does, but that will make him hate her for not giving him freedom -- you know like most teenagers. He might regret it later on, which is why God loves and forgives. Perfect combination of freedom and love. If you love someone, you let him do what he wants, not make him what you want him to do -- accept him for what he is.
All humans have empathy to some degree, and this does not mar our freedom, and is compatible with having free will. Why should having more empathy threaten it?
Our ability to learn as well, this is something we have no direct control over and some are better than others. Why can't everyone be better learners, so we could understand WHY things were right or wrong without the need to be exposed to terrible evil?
Quote:
He made us that way, we wanted knowledge, that includes knowledge about this "pain" and all that. We wanted, He gave -- isn't that love?
Most suffering happens because of what we have chosen etc...
Chose what?
Who?
When? 
If one of your kids wanted to die would you kill your whole family
This also begs the question, if he knew we were going to want this knowledge, and he made us this way, why did he make us this way such that all this evil will be unleashed?
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted September 30, 2008 02:29 PM |
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This also begs the question, if he knew we were going to want this knowledge, and he made us this way, why did he make us this way such that all this evil will be unleashed?
How would you want to make us, robots? How many times must I explain this to you, that restricting someone's choices will make him a "slave". If you truly love someone, you let him be as he is, not as you want him to be.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 02:36 PM |
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You let him be as he is? But you have to make him... lol?
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TheDeath
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posted September 30, 2008 02:40 PM |
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Ah the dilemma between Freedom and Omniscience
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angelito
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posted September 30, 2008 02:51 PM |
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Quote:
If a mother loves her kid, she will help him with homework but not do it for him forever. ...
But she would never let her little children run into a car on the street just to let the children "act with free will"..
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TheDeath
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posted September 30, 2008 03:02 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 15:04, 30 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
But she would never let her little children run into a car on the street just to let the children "act with free will"..
You're right, that's another dilemma, and it begs the question "where do you draw the line?"
For example, if a mother considers being 'addicted' to the computer is bad and she prevents her kid from that, she'll be so to speak overly protective and she'll annoy him -- he'll even "bless" the day he can get independent from her. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, unfortunately it is very hard to know where.
EDIT: also, the mother can of course tell him that running into a car is bad and will hurt him etc...
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angelito
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posted September 30, 2008 03:08 PM |
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True. But some things are just too obvious to see, and would be easy to prevent. But I have the feeling "God" doesn't prevent anything at all.
The only explanation I have, resp. I can accept is, we have more than 1 life, but maybe 5 or 6 or even 15. Everything we do, do not, suffer, etc.. will be valued for the next life. So let's say a drug dealer who kills lots of teenagers by selling them heroine will have a great life with all luxury and stuff in this current life. But in his next life he will probably die by the age of 9 due to cancer, and in the next life all his kids will die in an accident and he will become paralyzed and has to live in a wheel chair for the rest of his life.
At least this would sound fair and would help me to understand why life is so unfair around the world..
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Doomforge
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posted September 30, 2008 03:11 PM |
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that would be nice system.. if you could remember your past lives. Otherwise you'd never learn from your mistakes
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JollyJoker
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posted October 02, 2008 07:54 AM |
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Quote:
True. But some things are just too obvious to see, and would be easy to prevent. But I have the feeling "God" doesn't prevent anything at all.
The only explanation I have, resp. I can accept is, we have more than 1 life, but maybe 5 or 6 or even 15. Everything we do, do not, suffer, etc.. will be valued for the next life. So let's say a drug dealer who kills lots of teenagers by selling them heroine will have a great life with all luxury and stuff in this current life. But in his next life he will probably die by the age of 9 due to cancer, and in the next life all his kids will die in an accident and he will become paralyzed and has to live in a wheel chair for the rest of his life.
At least this would sound fair and would help me to understand why life is so unfair around the world..
Hmm. If this life was just the best simulation game ever designed (because you can't just top that feeling of reality), and in the "real reality" players would wake up and say, ok, growing up in a 3rd world country, half starving every day and then dying of aids age 18 has been pretty gross and quite rich and vivid, emotionally. I'd like something different now for my next game: how about having kids and see them botch up their life? Now, THAT should be quite intensive as well!
Would you still say life was unfair?
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angelito
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posted October 02, 2008 09:03 AM |
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The important part of my idea is, no one does know anything about his former life. That's why this idea is possible...even right now. Sometimes people have so called "Dčja-Vus". Maybe the reason for them is because they really had a life before?
This system is not made for learning and proceeding, but about getting several chances to become a "good guy". If you fail, you will suffer, without knowing why. If you would know in your 3rd life, you have to die early coz you have been a bad guy in 2nd life, you could try to prevent yourself from getting "punished".
So maybe TheDeath and Mvassilev used to live in a hugh valley in one of their former lifes, where everything they said/shouted was repeated by an echo, that's why they tend to quote everything they see..
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Doomforge
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posted October 02, 2008 09:05 AM |
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If you fail, you will suffer, without knowing why.
I thought that was one of the overused anti-God arguments (pointless suffering) and now you propose that one yourself as GOOD? 
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angelito
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posted October 02, 2008 09:09 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If you fail, you will suffer, without knowing why.
I thought that was one of the overused anti-God arguments (pointless suffering) and now you propose that one yourself as GOOD?
I didn't say it was good, I said this would be the only explanation for me why the world is how it is right now. Why bad guys die with 95 after having a luxury life to its best, and kids die with the age of 4 due to starvation. Both had done something in their former life, or maybe it is the bad guy's first life, and the kid's 7th already.
Not sure if I express myself understandable on that issue...
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Doomforge
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posted October 02, 2008 09:13 AM |
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The Christian system isn't that bad after all.. People live what they want/can and get adequate "reward" afterwards.. Should God intervene, it would be the end of free will. We'd be more or less dolls in his futurecrafting hands..
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angelito
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posted October 02, 2008 09:54 AM |
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What is an "adequate" reward?
I have already asked some months ago, what believers think what will happen after they have died. How the "paradise" looks like, and more important, what will you do "the whole day"?
A german comedian had a nice expression refering to the reward those islamic assassins have to expect:
72 virgins....for a whole eternity...you have to think about an economical way to handle that, otherwise the bigger part of eternity will become pretty much boring...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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