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xerox
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posted September 29, 2008 05:53 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:55, 29 Sep 2008.
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No, there is no difference between the old mythologies and the current relgions (which I also call mythologies) except one really minor ....
Todays religions have not died, YET.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Azagal
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posted September 29, 2008 05:53 PM |
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The inquisiton isn't horribly exagerated my friend and I believe you know that. Denying the magnitude of it's outrageous actions isn't being fair.
That doesn't mean however that Keksimaton is exagerating. Atleast in my opinion.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted September 29, 2008 05:57 PM |
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History of my region has taught me that in that time, everyone had the religion of their leader. I do not really fault religion (however, the blood council was kinda hard and we didn't like the controlling our nation) i'd rather say that power corrupts and everyone uses the most far-fetched excuse to seize it. The spanish king just wanted to exercise control and the archduke Alva just did his job, nothing more and nothing less...
EDIT: I'm not talking about the spanish inquisition. It's about the protestants vs the catholics in the united lowlands(which was property of Spain at the time..
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Keksimaton
Promising
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Talk to the hand
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posted September 29, 2008 06:11 PM |
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Weren't the inquisitions about questioning/torturing/publically executing people who were suspected of "heresy" and the running about in other countries with an army and converting people were the crusades?
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted September 29, 2008 06:15 PM |
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you're right, keksi.
I was talking about the armed conflict in (what is now known as) Belgium and the Netherlands. (80 year war)
the blood council formed by the duke of alva were a bunch of inquistioners from Spain who interrogated, tortured and brutally murdered everyone from the protestant religion. I already corrected it, though, saying it was something I actually was talking about. I just noticed a correlation between the two 
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Doomforge
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posted September 29, 2008 07:24 PM |
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I hope you guys double-check what you are saying.
From what I've read, only 5% of the penalties were death penalty and the number of slain people is GROSSLY exaggerated. There are literally HUNDREDS of ridiculous stereotypes and legends about that time and I'm saddened to see you all believe in them.
Oh well, some things can't change. Don't get me wrong. I don't deny those were crimes, genocide. But! Not to the extent most of people think. Not even CLOSE to it. In Portugal, the "major" place of inquisition, there are only +/- 1000 documented kills in 300 years - and around +/- 2000 estimated kills. Every life counts and it's a pitiful thing in the history of Europe, but.. you know. Vlad the Impaler IMPALED (a "bit" worse than burning alive - you die for days.) a "bit" more. Maybe not 20.000 Turkish soldiers at once (exaggeration), as it is often stated, but he killed MORE PEOPLE AT ONCE THAT INQUISITION EVER DID.
Why doesn't HE get the hype? Why the inquisition, which is called the worst thing of those times?
I wonder why people are so damn hypocritical. :/
Again, don't get me wrong. I do not try to defend this pitiful invention. I think it's a crime. but. I just wonder why people insist on repeating those exaggerated legends.
My sources are in Polish, so I doubt they will be of any use to you. Sorry for no source, then. if you want me to search for something adequate you have to give me a bit more time 
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted September 29, 2008 07:26 PM |
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Like people place the hype on Hitler when Stalin killed/executed almost ten times as many people
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 04:50 AM |
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Quote:
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What is the eating the apple a metaphor for?
Man is curious...
Well this begs the question, why did god make us greedy and curious 
But what I meant to ask is this. The bible states that when we are born we inherit this sin of our fathers or whatever because Adam ate this apple.
But Adam eating the apple is just a metaphor, he didn't actually do it (according those who suggest that it's a metaphor/symbol)
And Jesus was sent down to cleanse us of that sin, that no one actually ever did.
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It was not specified that the fruit was an apple so the question is flawed and thus not worth an answer!
Yay 
@DOOM:
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Of course there is lol. "knowing all" doesn't exist. We refer to somethinh COMPLETELY abstract. Thus, we can't really define it accurately lol. It's a really simple concept, mate
You can define something that doesn't exist...
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And the Abraham story is quite interesting metaphor in fact. I don't see what's wrong in it. The murder wasn't committed in the end anyway.
Assuming god exists.
Here's what's wrong with it:
-God contradicts himself because he said "thou shalt not kill"
-How did Abraham know it was god spekaing? Maybe it was the devil trying to trick him? Maybe his mind is playing tricks?
-How did he know that god wasn't testing him to see if he would really commit such a horrible crime at the word of a voice?
All of these seem much more plausible than god actually wanting Abraham's son dead. What kind of a loving god would command such a barbaric act?
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There is one HUGE difference. All the other stories are dead and forgotten. This one is healthy and kicking despite people building LHC and stuff.
So it exists in a different time period. I don't see why this makes it any more valid.
When polytheism was all the rage the texts about Zeus were alive and kicking then, does that make that story any better?
As for the morals, you miss my point.
You're saying that if you knew there were no god, and there was no heaven, then you wouldn't be as good of a person as you are now. Hence that means that you are only doing the good you do now so that you can get to heaven.
Isn't this a selfish reason to do good? (assuming god exists)
I personally do good to benefit others and make others happier. Not all the time obviously but when I do this is why I do it, not so I can live forever or whatever.
Hence I think that your logic is flawed.
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I'm sure it would change the way of thinking of many ppl, myself included.
Well then these people shouldn't go to heaven because they are inherently evil people, and the only thing stopping them is the promise of eternal life from a book. Seriously, I mean no offence, but I just find this argument absurd.
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Who knows what the whole scripture is, though.
Exactly. It could be the word of the devil 
Why follow the bible if you can't trust any of it for sure?
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted September 30, 2008 09:32 AM |
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Assuming god exists.
Here's what's wrong with it:
-God contradicts himself because he said "thou shalt not kill"
There was no one killed in the end
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-How did Abraham know it was god spekaing? Maybe it was the devil trying to trick him? Maybe his mind is playing tricks?
It would be an awfully complicated metaphore if it included IFF devices.. Just assume he had his ways, k?
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-How did he know that god wasn't testing him to see if he would really commit such a horrible crime at the word of a voice?
Seems like those were not an option. or perhaps insane men doing things because voices tell them to do so aren't really criminals after all in the eyes of God? (and again why they should be. They are after all sick, not evil..)
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All of these seem much more plausible than god actually wanting Abraham's son dead. What kind of a loving god would command such a barbaric act?
He didn't want him dead. He wanted Abraham's reaction. And it was a metaphor. Meaning that one should be ready to sacrifice everything he loves to God.. even if God doesn't really want us to suffer that much. What's honestly WRONG with that?
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So it exists in a different time period. I don't see why this makes it any more valid.
When polytheism was all the rage the texts about Zeus were alive and kicking then, does that make that story any better?
Time period? Lol. Most of the stories died with the rise of technology and philosophy. Most of them were tied to a small region or country ONLY and never made through the borders. This "story" survived everything and is spread world-wide. Just because of it it's quite unique, don't you think?
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As for the morals, you miss my point.
You're saying that if you knew there were no god, and there was no heaven, then you wouldn't be as good of a person as you are now. Hence that means that you are only doing the good you do now so that you can get to heaven.
Isn't this a selfish reason to do good? (assuming god exists)
I personally do good to benefit others and make others happier. Not all the time obviously but when I do this is why I do it, not so I can live forever or whatever.
Hence I think that your logic is flawed.
Nah. I don't believe in absolute good in any way mate. Everything we do "good" is to satisfy US. The reward system is the CORE of our being. Don't make me laugh that there is ANYTHING done NOT for reward. Even total misanthropes do good because it is a reward to see one's reaction afterwards. Or just for the content heart.
What's worse with me, being good because it gives me joy to be good in the world of order and sense?
If everything I believed in shattered, my morals would shatter too. What's so "wrong" about it? It's a human thing. Unless you're a superior being to me and don't care for your world shattered, that is.
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Well then these people shouldn't go to heaven because they are inherently evil people, and the only thing stopping them is the promise of eternal life from a book. Seriously, I mean no offence, but I just find this argument absurd.
You got it all wrong. I never said a word about a word of a book.. I said that the feeling of living in order and a world that actually has a point makes you feel that good is.. well.. good. In a world of chaos and randomness, with oblivion ahead, no matter how good you are.. if you're aware of the NOTHINGNESS around you, morals will - logically - make no sense. If you're good, you won't commit crimes. But your way of thinking WILL change, and that was my point. Not I-go-evil-and-kill-rape-steal, although some certainly would (the supressed evils  ) Don't make so many smart assumptions, TA..
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 09:45 AM |
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You're looking at it from the wrong angle.
We know now that God didn't want him dead, and that no one was killed.
But see it from Abraham's perspective: he had to act as if God DID want his son dead, and to contradict the laws God has already given.
It is simply insane of Abraham to comply, because to comply he would have to assume that God wanted his son dead.
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If everything I believed in shattered, my morals would shatter too. What's so "wrong" about it? It's a human thing. Unless you're a superior being to me and don't care for your world shattered, that is.
You're saying that if you did not believe in God you would not do good.
I don't believe in God and I do good (not all the time).
That's all I'm saying.
If the people stop doing good just because it won't get them into heaven then this seems very shallow and undeserving of eternal life to me. Seems more like World of Warcraft or something
Gain 50 good points and you get to go to new instance of Heaven
You talk about suppressed evils. So it's ok to let the chained-up-by-religion would-be-killer supressed evils in to heaven
And if someone doesn't accept Jesus christ as their saviour but they are the goodestestestest person in the world they don't go to heaven?
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John says to live above hell.
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Mytical
Responsible
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 30, 2008 09:51 AM |
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To quote something I once heard. "Honestly I prefer a god that has better things to do then worry about the petty problems of man." (or something similar, the gist is the same).
We have free will. Maybe it is because God has bigger fish to fry then micromanage our petty little lives, maybe it is because despite KNOWING better he still has hope for us. Though I am not one of those that think bad things happen for a reason, they just happen.
We are responsible for our own actions, evil or good. Not society, not something that happened in our childhood, or whatever other excuse you want to come up with. Short of a some brain trauma that prevents you from knowing right from wrong..it all boils down to YOU.
People have used every excuse in the book. They were poor, they were abused, they were on drugs..you name it. Despite the fact that people who had WORSE lives never did what they did. People will use religion as an excuse, or science, or their uncle jimbobfurleybob. I mean..it can't be their fault..can it?
Just keep in mind it is JUST an excuse. "Hey so we killed a thousand people testing this new product. It will help 1000000, that makes it ok .. right?"
We make our own mess, and then ask why some higher power allows it. When in the cosmic scheme of things our troubles don't ammount to a grain of sand. God, Allah, Budda, Jimbobfurleybob is not to blame. People are. Because they do have freedom of choice. BUT it is better then being just a puppet on a string. So, let the man upstairs focus on the bigger picture. I'll focus on my own actions, and take responsibility for them..for good or for ill.
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Message received.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 10:02 AM |
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How can he have hope if he knows everything?
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted September 30, 2008 10:08 AM |
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You're looking at it from the wrong angle.
We know now that God didn't want him dead, and that no one was killed.
But see it from Abraham's perspective: he had to act as if God DID want his son dead, and to contradict the laws God has already given.
It is simply insane of Abraham to comply, because to comply he would have to assume that God wanted his son dead.
That's another story you don't understand, do you  Look at it this way: sometimes we don't understand why our life seems to offer us only a ridiculous choice. Perhaps it's not as bad as our senses tell us and it won't end as bad as we think it will? Maybe there is a point in all the madness that happens to us. It's a metaphor, go and draw something useful from it
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You're saying that if you did not believe in God you would not do good.
NO. I say that with my world shattered, I would change. I won't repeat this any more, it's getting tiresome mate If you insist on believing I mean something else than I explained (three times).. well some things can't be changed can they
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You talk about suppressed evils. So it's ok to let the chained-up-by-religion would-be-killer supressed evils in to heaven
And if someone doesn't accept Jesus christ as their saviour but they are the goodestestestest person in the world they don't go to heaven?
I don't know about the latter question. As for the former. Yes, it's ok. Why it shouldn't? what's wrong in redemption of a bad person, even if it's because he read the "stupid book" and suddenly felt guilt? (yes it happened in the past, whether you believe it or not. Maybe this "stupid book" has more power than you give it the credit for?  ). Forgiveness is a part of this religion mate. Evil person forcing himself good because he sincerely believes that is the way is called the good path.. because you were able to control your evil core. If you don't understand that, no wonder you don't understand Christianity at all..
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 30, 2008 10:15 AM |
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How can he have hope if he knows everything?
Knowledge does not cancel hope.
Look at it this way. You have millions of apples. Now anybody knows, you leave them sit long enough they will go bad. Do you just toss them out because they will eventually go bad? What about when the first few go bad? Gonna just throw all of those millions of apples away because a few have went bad?
Bad example I know, but as good as I could think of.
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Message received.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 11:50 AM |
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That's another story you don't understand, do you Look at it this way: sometimes we don't understand why our life seems to offer us only a ridiculous choice. Perhaps it's not as bad as our senses tell us and it won't end as bad as we think it will? Maybe there is a point in all the madness that happens to us. It's a metaphor, go and draw something useful from it
OK I draw that we should slavishly obey any voices we hear claiming to be God.
Just like many many people who believe that God commands them to be suicide bombers or to murder prostitutes or to persecute an ethnic minority.
It might seem ridiculous to kill someone of another faith. Hell, you may not even want to. But God forbid you actually stop and think about it and disobey the word of God!
Before you say that God could never command such wicked things, remember that he DID do things like command the death of Isaac, condoned the rape of a wife as punsihment to the husband (2 Samuel 12), ordered the killing of followers of other religions (Deuteronomy 13) and sentenced blasphemers to death by stoning (Leviticus 24).
It seems there are no limits to what God might ask, and some people of faith will do.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 11:57 AM |
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Quote:
Knowledge does not cancel hope.
Look at it this way. You have millions of apples. Now anybody knows, you leave them sit long enough they will go bad. Do you just toss them out because they will eventually go bad? What about when the first few go bad? Gonna just throw all of those millions of apples away because a few have went bad?
Bad example I know, but as good as I could think of.
No you don't have to throw them away but you don't sit there and hope that they won't go bad when you know they will...
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John says to live above hell.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 30, 2008 12:20 PM |
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Agreed, that is why I said it wasn't the best example. Look over the history of mankind, however. Yes, there have been a lot of bad people, and bad things happen. But there has been a lot of good people, and good things happen too. What really stinks is, most of the bad things were started by a handful of 'rotten apples'.
Yes a lot of people participated, because of ignorance, fear, whatever, but the horrible things like the inquisition, most wars, etc were started by a few people. The old saying a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch is apt.
However, the universe is a rather large place. Lots of stuff going on. Any higher power that has the time to worry about the problems of our little planet isn't doing their job. In the example it would be like having a billion miles of farm, and worring about 1 apple.
So he delegates. He (or she or it) gives man free will, and delegates the responsibility for our little patch to us. He doesn't micromanage, but looks at the big picture. The 'cosmic' scheme of things.
At first he looked over man's shoulder, showed him the ropes, etc. After awhile he moved on to bigger things. Now, he knows man is going to mess up, but maybe he also knows something WE don't. We see a hundred bad apples, he sees the one good one. Maybe that is the point. Enough of the 'good' apples mature and can be of use to him that the bad apples are worth it.
All this is conjecture, if we could think like him (her or it) we'd have all the answers. But let me ask you this.
If there is nothing beyond this life..what is the point? I mean think about it. You are born, you collect 'stuff', you mate (possibly), and you die. Maybe that is all there is to it. If I am wrong and that is all that is to it..hey great. I've still lived a great life and have no regrets. I've not shorted myself of anything worth having, and have brought some joy and happiness to others.
I am not religious, but spiritual. I believe strongly that there is something else. You say it can't be tested, it can't be proved. Technically you are wrong. Because once this life ended, the tests will be done, the proof will be had. Either I'll cease to exsist, or not.
Religion, even orginized religion, is not bad. It can do a lot of good. It is dangerous, but so is a atomic bomb. It depends on who's finger is on the button.
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angelito
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posted September 30, 2008 12:36 PM |
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That's another story you don't understand, do you Look at it this way: sometimes we don't understand why our life seems to offer us only a ridiculous choice. Perhaps it's not as bad as our senses tell us and it won't end as bad as we think it will? Maybe there is a point in all the madness that happens to us. It's a metaphor, go and draw something useful from it
I can't expain something, therefore it is a metaphor....lol.
How often did we hear such a reply already....
Maybe it is more one of the many contradictions in the bible than a metaphor?
"Perhaps it is not as bad as our senses tell us..."...hmmm...but what if "perhaps" it IS as bad as our senses tell us? Ever thought about that?
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TheDeath
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posted September 30, 2008 12:55 PM |
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"Perhaps it is not as bad as our senses tell us..."...hmmm...but what if "perhaps" it IS as bad as our senses tell us? Ever thought about that?
Doesn't change anything, it remains the same. Example:
Perhaps 50% we will die today.
What if "perhaps" 50% we will not?
Both refer to the same thing -- I mean, the first one already implies a 50% chance of failure lol. (I know, bad example, and chances can't be calculated, but you get the point).
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 30, 2008 01:10 PM |
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If he is omniscient then he can worry about everything
But I agree that if there were to be a creator he wouldn't care at all what people did in their bedrooms or on the sabbath or if they used a word that people didn't like or whatever.
But the discussion of free will isn't whether God watches over us or not. It's this;
Let's assume God exists and that he created everything.
If he created X with free will, X could do anything right? Because it is free. Let's say X will do x.
If he creates Y with free will, Y will do y. Depending on what and how he creates his creations, certain things will occur as a result of that, right?
So he decides what and how to create. He decides to create X (and a bunch of other things) but not Y.
But if he is omniscient he would fully know that X was going to do x, yet he still decided to create them in that way. He could have created them in form Y which would do y, or form Z which would do z, but he chose X.
So, in effect, God chose for x to happen.
Hence, if God is omniscient and omnipotent and created everything, everything that occurs is part of his plan.
Hence the whole "don't shift the blame it's all our fault" is only true to an extent; God did wish for it to happen.
Otherwise he wouldn't have made things the way they are.
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John says to live above hell.
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