|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
posted September 29, 2008 02:40 PM |
|
|
@Doom:
Quote:
TA: I don't try to set my own rules, that wouldn't make any sense  As a Christian, I (should) follow Christ. That doesn't mean I can dismiss the Old Testament, but.. There were many things based on dreams, visions there. There is some history and old law there. Why should we assume all of it are God's words? That doesn't mean Bible is worthless, but I think that you should be rather careful with the Old part. The New is substantially less ambiguous. I know certain people found some contradictions in it and I know them, but it's nothing serious. It's the Old one that gets most of the anti-Christian hype
The New Testament states that the whole Bible is God's word.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"2 TIMOTHY 3:16
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation."2 PETER 1:20
". . . when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. "1 THESSALONIANS 2:13
As Baklava said I did a little googling and found this Christian website:
'Nearly 4,000 times expressions like "Thus says the Lord," "The word of the Lord came unto me," etc., are recorded in the Bible.
If the Bible is not God's Word, then the Bible is full of lies.'
I would say that the Bible is utterly useless.
What good does it do? A bunch of ridiculous and obscene stories coupled with ambiguous metaphors that no one can settle on, some rules that are just absurd and finally a couple that do have some merit.
Those being basically "don't be bad"... really? Who would have known?
I guess killing and stealing is bad too? Oh yeah, it says that here as well! Not exactly fresh ideas.
And it's coupled with rules like "don't take god's name in vain" and "don't mar your beard" and raping a wife as form of punishment to the husband etc. etc. People start picking and choosing which laws they want to follow and the Bible becomes obselete.
Why can't you just do good without all the other padding?
Why do you have to pray before a meal and go to church on a sunday?
Quote:
As for scientists.. well, there are few, most of them don't follow particular religion though but never negate that God is perfectly possible and makes a lot of sense. Hawking and his cosmology for example, or Einstein and his famous "hearing the music of the spheres"  They aren't exactly what you would call theist, but they are far from atheism, too. This doesn't mean there aren't 100% theists around them, as well as 100% atheists. What I'm trying to prove is that one should say that some things are outdated or plainly illogical going by science (like Xerox implies 100% of the time) because it's not like that.
We're talking about a personal God, though, which I know Einstein never believed in and I don't know all that much about Hawking's beliefs.
But deism or weak atheism have nothing to do with Christianity or religion or a personal god, really.
Quote:
But in those cases, or questions like "How can God be omniscient and blah blah blah or how can God be all-powerful and blah blah blah" I simply know the answer because it's really simple That's because it's not God we question, but the flaws of our logical system.
Can you point out the flaws in this:
If god is all knowing, in that he knows everything that will result of his actions, and he is all powerful, in that he can create us exactly how he wants us (knowing what will happen if he creates us as he will), then he is responsible for everything that results from us.
If he is both omniscient and omnipotent, then we CANNOT have free will.
Unless god just made us on divine whim like the roll of a dice and just accepts what happens... although I find this absurd, and also partially in condradiction with his omniscience.
Quote:
One question bothers me. Why do anti-religious people use Zeitgeist and "Creation revisited" as their sort of holy Bible? They so blindly believe in everything there. Even though Zeitgeist isn't exactly very accurate about Horus (many stupid ideas, actually. Try "zeitgeists lies" on YT or simply read about Horus.. >_> and creation revisited is just an interpretation of author's logic, that is not necessarily true or correct. Extreme theists and extreme atheists have a lot in common.. they all believe blindly in their "holy books" without a second of thinking.
While zeitgeist is be a movie that atheists might like, and it contains facts that may or may not be true just like any documentary, if someone believes what they see in a documentary it's not really comparable to blind faith.
Besides, no one prays to zeitgeist
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 02:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If he is both omniscient and omnipotent, then we CANNOT have free will.
That might be a contradiction to us but remember that we also cannot think how He can live in a world without time. Let us just not think about it
who says that our logic is omnipotent and capable of comprehension?
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 02:58 PM |
|
|
We've had this discussion
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 03:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The New Testament states that the whole Bible is God's word.
Yeah, even those that have been added ages after Jesus?
Come on. It's ridiculous, we can't even say what was added later and what wasn't with reasonable accuracy.
For example it's proved that Genesis is way younger than the rest.
Perhaps the whole Bible is God's word.. but what is Bible and what is not?
Of course you can now say "it's ridiculous, why to bother at all when you have to pick yourself what suits you" or "how convenient for you theists", but that's how we see it, man. Christians have the luxury of Jesus being an "avatar" of God, and thus, his words have the priority before the others. We don't have to live by the old laws when God himself straightened them and took care of the ambiguous ones. Pretty convenient, if you ask me. It's harder to be a realistic Jew, I think, they only have the Old part
Quote:
Those being basically "don't be bad"... really? Who would have known?
The funny part is that if people ever reach higher consciousness, by whatever reasons, they simply may laugh at good and evil or anything. I mean, who would care for good or evil if there is the same end for everyone. Oblivion. I wouldn't care for any morals myself. Because, what for. Why. It's a frickin random world with no rules and no sense at all. Why to bother. I certainly would not. I am 100% sure of it 
Quote:
Why can't you just do good without all the other padding?
Why do you have to pray before a meal and go to church on a sunday?
Why respect your parents, why to treat them differently than other people? Well, why? there is no logic in it, no benefit, and yet society encourages you to do so.. although going by pure "usefulness" it would be better to kill them when they are too old to work, lol.
Prayer is a form of respect to God. Looks like he likes it. What's the big deal..
You miss the emotional part in the laws. Perhaps that's why some of them are ridiculous to you.
Quote:
We're talking about a personal God, though, which I know Einstein never believed in and I don't know all that much about Hawking's beliefs.
It's a matter of taste which faith you follow. I never argued about that.
Quote:
But deism or weak atheism have nothing to do with Christianity or religion or a personal god, really.
I wouldn't say so.
Quote:
Can you point out the flaws in this:
If god is all knowing, in that he knows everything that will result of his actions, and he is all powerful, in that he can create us exactly how he wants us (knowing what will happen if he creates us as he will), then he is responsible for everything that results from us.
If there's no one else to blame, blame God?
Why it is so hard to imagine that omniscience and free will can exist altogether? I find it quite logical, actually. Oh well, maybe it just depends on the point of view.
Quote:
If he is both omniscient and omnipotent, then we CANNOT have free will.
Unless god just made us on divine whim like the roll of a dice and just accepts what happens... although I find this absurd, and also partially in condradiction with his omniscience.
I see it that way: God knows the possible outcome, and thus is omniscient, but we are beings of free will, and can choose. It's up to us. No, God doesn't "know" what will we choose.. I don't think there is any point in including randomness in knowledge. And I don't think it contradicts omniscience.
Again, you do not question the logic behind the existence of God.. only the logic behind the word "omniscient" and "all powerful". The weakness of this logic is that you can apply it to different things, and thus, as every word game, it has nothing to do with God.
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 03:43 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Yeah, even those that have been added ages after Jesus?
Come on. It's ridiculous, we can't even say what was added later and what wasn't with reasonable accuracy.
For example it's proved that Genesis is way younger than the rest.
Perhaps the whole Bible is God's word.. but what is Bible and what is not?
Then there's not much bible is there.
As the article said, there are over 4000 references to the "word of god" in the bible.
It seems like a lie-riddled book then... why clutch to it?
Quote:
Of course you can now say "it's ridiculous, why to bother at all when you have to pick yourself what suits you" or "how convenient for you theists", but that's how we see it, man. Christians have the luxury of Jesus being an "avatar" of God, and thus, his words have the priority before the others. We don't have to live by the old laws when God himself straightened them and took care of the ambiguous ones. Pretty convenient, if you ask me. It's harder to be a realistic Jew, I think, they only have the Old part
Why did God create the ambiguous laws in the first place, if he was going to change his mind?
If we can't even be sure that these laws are the work of god, then what in the bible CAN you be sure of?
You've (more effectively than I could) reduced the bible to nothing that can be trusted...
Quote:
The funny part is that if people ever reach higher consciousness, by whatever reasons, they simply may laugh at good and evil or anything. I mean, who would care for good or evil if there is the same end for everyone. Oblivion. I wouldn't care for any morals myself. Because, what for. Why. It's a frickin random world with no rules and no sense at all. Why to bother. I certainly would not. I am 100% sure of it
And isn't it more fun 
Quote:
Why respect your parents, why to treat them differently than other people? Well, why? there is no logic in it, no benefit, and yet society encourages you to do so.. although going by pure "usefulness" it would be better to kill them when they are too old to work, lol.
Prayer is a form of respect to God. Looks like he likes it. What's the big deal..
You miss the emotional part in the laws. Perhaps that's why some of them are ridiculous to you.
No rather it's like your parents being like, do this random ridiculous task or I'll stone you.
Quote:
If there's no one else to blame, blame God?
Why it is so hard to imagine that omniscience and free will can exist altogether? I find it quite logical, actually. Oh well, maybe it just depends on the point of view.
Free will can exist (this may seem a contradiction let me explain), yes, but god would know exactly what we are going to do with that free will, and seeing as he created everything exactly as they are, with that knowledge, how he creates us controls what we do, hence it's not really up to us if he created us with absolute power.
The universe was made this way by him. Either we are a product of him (nature) or the product of his products (nurture), what else can our actions be determined by?. Either way, if he is omniscient and omnipotent, then it is his doing.
Quote:
No, God doesn't "know" what will we choose..
Then he is not omniscient, if he does not know everything. Problem solved
Quote:
Again, you do not question the logic behind the existence of God.. only the logic behind the word "omniscient" and "all powerful". The weakness of this logic is that you can apply it to different things, and thus, as every word game, it has nothing to do with God.
I'm questioning his characteristics which is vital to the question.
If he is omnipotent and omniscient like you say, then he is one sick dude, and I have a real problem with that.
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:03 PM |
|
Edited by angelito at 16:10, 29 Sep 2008.
|
Quote:
...But in those cases, or questions like "How can God be omniscient and blah blah blah or how can God be all-powerful and blah blah blah" I simply know the answer because it's really simple That's because it's not God we question, but the flaws of our logical system....
How do you know it is our logical system which has flaws, and not your religious theory?
A pretty well known scientist once said: God doesn't roll dices!
This tells me, all "laws" should count for everybody in the same way.
Just imagine u have a dice (6 areas), and on every side u will find a different kind of "desease". One of them is called "amputee". Now you roll this dice million times, but you will never see "amputee" on the top.
And about this "metaphor" argument. This may be the oldest argument theists use for things they either can't explain or which are prooven to be "flaws". Is there anything in the bible which is NOT a metaphor? Can you point that out so I get a clue of those things?
Science learns, and improves. Science develops/discovers new things and let us understand many things better and better. Religion on the other hand doesn't develeop at all. Everytime science finds a flaw in the bible, the "metaphor" argument appears. All those religious people find science great as long as it is good for the them (computer, car, tv, cell phone, transplantation, internet, light, dvd, antibiotica, eyeglasses, micro wave, etc...). But when science hits a religious topic, it is put away as "our logical system which is full of flaws".
Interesting....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
A pretty well known scientist once said: God doesn't roll dices!
Same man said Quantum Mechanics make no sense
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
A pretty well known scientist once said: God doesn't roll dices!
Same man said Quantum Mechanics make no sense
Einstein used this as a metaphor!
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:20 PM |
|
|
Quote:
How do you know it is our logical system which has flaws, and not your religious theory?
Don't you agree, Angelito, that all people argue about is how to understand the word "omniscient"?
Because it doesn't exist in our world and it's abstract.
If you look at it the way most atheists do, it makes no sense. If you look at it my way.. well, I am quite sure my definition at least is contradiction-free.
Quote:
And about this "metaphor" argument. This may be the oldest argument theists use for things they either can't explain or which are prooven to be "flaws". Is there anything in the bible which is NOT a metaphor? Can you point that out so I get a clue of those things?
New Testament
Quote:
Science learns, and improves. Science develops/discovers new things and let us understand many things better and better. Religion on the other hand doesn't develeop at all. Everytime science finds a flaw in the bible, the "metaphor" argument appears. All those religious people find science great as long as it is good for the them (computer, car, tv, cell phone, transplantation, internet, light, dvd, antibiotica, eyeglasses, micro wave, etc...). But when science hits a religious topic, it is put away as "our logical system which is full of flaws".
Interesting....
I don't get this ridiculous science vs. religion war.. Do you think it's impossible for them to co-exist? I find it fascinating how one complements another personally.
TA: he may not be omniscient the way you understand the word, I can agree with that As for the Bible, I think that the New Testament is pretty fine as it is, and as for the old, it just needed a "patch" as baklava called it Therefore, I don't think it's ridiculous. Just a bit outdated in the metaphorical/law part, but that doesn't mean rubbish.
And yes, being evil would be more fun than being good. If there was no God and no belief in him, a lot of people would start thinking like me, I believe. There you go, one positive aspect of believing in God that is still valuable, after all those years Keeps some people from thinking the bad way.
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:46 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Because it doesn't exist in our world and it's abstract.
It's not at all abstract.
Omniscient means knowing everything. (that is, everything, as in, there is nothing that is not known)
There's really no ambiguity.
If there is something that you don't know, then you are not omniscient. Arguing that god is both omniscient yet he doesn't know the outcome of human choices is a contradiction in terms. One or the other must be true.
Quote:
New Testament
Breaking the bread?
Walking on water?
Miracles?
The number chosen for heaven? (in that, they haven't defiled themselves with another man, hence can't be women)
Besides, this metaphor stuff is absurd.
What is slaughtering the followers of other religions a metaphor for? (Deuteronomy 13)
What is the Abraham story a metaphor for? Slavishly following a booming voice in the clouds telling you to commit murder (which god already said not to do)? 
What is the eating the apple a metaphor for?
There is no difference between the Bible and any other mythological story.
Quote:
he may not be omniscient the way you understand the word, I can agree with that
Good, then we're done.
If you want to believe that he's omniscient but he doesn't know everything then that's fine by me
Quote:
If there was no God and no belief in him, a lot of people would start thinking like me, I believe.
Isn't this inherently selfish?
To only do good so that you can go to heaven?
Aren't these people evil at heart but not in action?
What about doing good for the benefit of others?
Acting like without religion everyone would just kill and steal is absurd.
With the bible, if the New Testament is fine as it is, why does Jesus reference and quote the Old Testament, and the entire Testament states that the whole scripture is the word of God?
It can't be fine if the Old Testament is not fine.
If God wanted guidelines to meddle with human affairs and help us on our path, why not do it in a useful way that actually works?
Rather than needing a contradictory patch?
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:47 PM |
|
|
God, I leave for one second and I see an entire reader's digest again.
Anyway, about non-believing scientists and such and such:
They are jesuit scientists, you know...
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Ok let me try one stupid example
"Why does that guy play Counter-Strike, it doesn't make any sense, does it?" (supposing people like this don't know what fun is!!!)
yeah I know stupid example...
This is just saying that logic is subjective.
I know this, you've mentioned it before
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:48 PM |
|
|
Quote:
What is the eating the apple a metaphor for?
Man is curious...
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:53 PM |
|
|
And greedy.
I mean, the Devil told them that eating from the Apple would grant them knowledge. Of course, that also includes the knowledge of suffering, etc.
____________
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:54 PM |
|
|
Quote:
And greedy.
I mean, the Devil told them that eating from the Apple would grant them knowledge. Of course, that also includes the knowledge of suffering, etc.
Yay, ash could find the words I lost in my head! 
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 04:58 PM |
|
|
It was not specified that the fruit was an apple so the question is flawed and thus not worth an answer!
____________
Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 05:05 PM |
|
|
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 05:17 PM |
|
|
Don't use so much quotes, TA. It's hard to respond in any other way than by quotes, seeing that you address certain part of the text and not whole - quotewar follows ;/
Quote:
It's not at all abstract.
Omniscient means knowing everything. (that is, everything, as in, there is nothing that is not known)
There's really no ambiguity.
Of course there is lol. "knowing all" doesn't exist. We refer to somethinh COMPLETELY abstract. Thus, we can't really define it accurately lol. It's a really simple concept, mate
Quote:
Breaking the bread?
Walking on water?
Miracles?
What's wrong with those? They contradict physical laws? Hell, that's what they were meant for. xD
Quote:
The number chosen for heaven? (in that, they haven't defiled themselves with another man, hence can't be women)
Can't really recall that fragment
Quote:
Besides, this metaphor stuff is absurd.
What is slaughtering the followers of other religions a metaphor for? (Deuteronomy 13)
What is the Abraham story a metaphor for? Slavishly following a booming voice in the clouds telling you to commit murder (which god already said not to do)?
Those are not metaphores. It's more than that. History. Tradition. Laws. Cultural impact. What's so bad about it?
And the Abraham story is quite interesting metaphor in fact. I don't see what's wrong in it. The murder wasn't committed in the end anyway.
Quote:
What is the eating the apple a metaphor for?
Already explained above. People seeking too much of enlightenment (not necessarily knowledge). More that their brains can sometimes handle
Quote:
There is no difference between the Bible and any other mythological story.
There is one HUGE difference. All the other stories are dead and forgotten. This one is healthy and kicking despite people building LHC and stuff.
Quote:
Isn't this inherently selfish?
To only do good so that you can go to heaven?
Aren't these people evil at heart but not in action?
What about doing good for the benefit of others?
It's not selfish when life and morals have no point. I mean, if you already know there is no God and heaven and oblivion awaits, who the fsck cares for rules and morals. They don't matter anyway.
It IS selfish though when you think that God exist and do stuff only to "get to heaven".
Quote:
Acting like without religion everyone would just kill and steal is absurd.
Why do you go black and white ONLY, there is gray color somewhere in between.. I'm sure it would change the way of thinking of many ppl, myself included.
Quote:
With the bible, if the New Testament is fine as it is, why does Jesus reference and quote the Old Testament, and the entire Testament states that the whole scripture is the word of God?
Perhaps it is. Who knows what the whole scripture is, though.
Quote:
It can't be fine if the Old Testament is not fine.
If God wanted guidelines to meddle with human affairs and help us on our path, why not do it in a useful way that actually works?
Rather than needing a contradictory patch?
I think he gave a pretty easy moral conduct to people. It's just ten easy points The Bible is more than just that, and you want it to be just that. I find the cultural/historical/law additions interesting. You find them as contradictions, useless stuff and so on. Oh well
|
|
Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 05:37 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
There is no difference between the Bible and any other mythological story.
There is one HUGE difference. All the other stories are dead and forgotten. This one is healthy and kicking despite people building LHC and stuff.
I'd say its a small difference because the ones who were telling this story killed or converted those who told the other stories.
____________
Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 29, 2008 05:45 PM |
|
|
|
nobody denies the inquisition, but it's so horribly exaggerated.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
