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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 21, 2009 12:09 AM |
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I'll repeat a question in which i posted like 13 or 14 pages back:
"I was once on a journey with a group of people. One day we went to this house were an old lady lives. We talked to her, and she said she was blind. So we asked her if we could pray for her. She said yes. So we prayed for her blindness. And after the prayer she said she could see a little sunlight.
Another group prayer for another blind women. She acctually got her full vision back. "
I am telling the truth here. If you choose not to believe my words, then that's fine.
My question is: How would you explain people getting their vision back by prayer, if there's no God?
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 21, 2009 12:17 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:17, 21 Apr 2009.
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Maybe someone came and did lazer surgery on her?
I find it very unlikely.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 21, 2009 12:41 AM |
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Quote:
Maybe someone came and did lazer surgery on her?
Laser surgery doesn't cure blindness 
Anyway, I find the miracles, along with the passion, one of the weaker, more amateuristic stances of christianity
Sure, not as weak as the old testament, but still...
I mean, sure, you can see God in such a marvel, if it happened, but honestly I don't see what a firestorm/ recovery of a terminal illness/ conversation with your dead grandmother has to do with theological issues. Sure, you can say there's something 'paranormal', but that isn't the premise of most religions, is it? Isn't it stuff like: "Luv thy neighbour, HUUUUUG!"
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 21, 2009 12:52 AM |
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But DagothGares, seriously, how do you explain people getting their vision back?
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 21, 2009 01:11 AM |
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Seriously, why would it matter? If you're going to explain the unexplainable with God, we've just fallen back three thousand years! Religion itself should evolve beyond such things. I know that if there would be a war outn then the churches wouldn't even be able to hold all the attendants by next sunday, in Belgium, that much is true
But, for religion to be taken seriously, should it be used as a last resort?
I think not. I thinkk religion should be taken as a way of life. I don't say that people should live like all those silly devouts out there (whom I have the utmost respect for), but I'd say that what you say doesn't matter to God, what you think doesn't matter to God, because we're all human and we're all flawed in our doings and God knows this. Now, the only thing that should matter is your actions(which are inherently flawed, but should have the best of intent). I do not condemn, nor condone charity, but it's an easy way to do something altruistic, for example.
I do not say that happinness stems from it or that it shuld be your goal in life (though, I do not condemn it either), what I'm saying is that caring for someone else is pretty much what some religions are about. is religion inherently socialist? No, you're free to help anyone else in any way you want or not help at all, if you think that it's a waste.
Now, am I saying that religion is just altruism? No, not at all, I'm saying that religion should evolve into a full-fledged philosophy, like protestantism once was (from what I hear, the most fanatic christians tend to be from creationist protestants, I dunno, but it sounds like it has become one of THOSE RELIGIONS, again). Oh, well, I'm ranting... I thought I had a point, but I lost it...
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 21, 2009 01:19 AM |
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Quote:
But DagothGares, seriously, how do you explain people getting their vision back?
Ignoring that there are dozen or so logical fallacies implicit in this statement of yours, I have a simple answer: your claims are false.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 21, 2009 01:30 AM |
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Edited by rubycus at 01:31, 21 Apr 2009.
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DagothGares: You missed my point: How would you accually explain how the women got back her vision?
Corribus: In other words: you don't believe me? (just fine, just wanted to clarify if that was what you meant)
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 21, 2009 01:36 AM |
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How I would explain that?
So let's say i meet some blind women. Some men with the bests of intentions arrive in their boyswout attire and offer their prayers. The blind woman'd probably laugh and say something like: "Sure, why not."
Next day, she her vision back?
Off course, I know nothing of her condition, nor will I try to argue as if the statement were valid, which off course, is a game you won beforehand. Because I'd say something like: "It's a miracle... Let'sget her to the doctor to see what exactly happened to her eyes!"
Bit, simply put, god doesn't work that way
How do I know how God works? I don't know, but I am on of those that happen to know from experience that it's not our world where such things happen. God isn't a kind old bearded man on the top of the mountain that strike sdown with his light of blessings wherever he wants.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted April 21, 2009 01:43 AM |
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Edited by rubycus at 01:45, 21 Apr 2009.
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That's not how it works DragothGares
Accually I was on a team to Latvia. And we prayed for a women there. She was blind. After a few (2-3) prayers, she said she could see a little. she could see the sunlight, she could see the time on her clock...
Acctually I believe that God healed her (partly) to glorify himself through this miracle.
As I said you choose if you believe it or not.
I know
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 21, 2009 01:48 AM |
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You know what, if God healed a blind woman so he could have a good laugh over all this disbelief and arguement about it here (because he's after all a comedian), then fine, I suppose he would have done it for that reason alone.
Quote:
Acctually I believe that God healed her (partly) to glorify himself through this miracle.
He shouldn't need it. He's a comedian after all.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 22, 2009 06:12 PM |
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Quote:
but I'd say that what you say doesn't matter to God, what you think doesn't matter to God, because we're all human and we're all flawed in our doings and God knows this. Now, the only thing that should matter is your actions(which are inherently flawed, but should have the best of intent).
The thoughts matter, not the actions. Even include doubts, of course. Sometimes you don't do the action because of your doubts, but STILL it's the thoughts which include those doubts, that matter. By the way, this isn't even related to God -- any "extra" being that can read the data in our brains at an instant in time can see that the thoughts matter, and since God is omniscient, He does as well.
And what do you mean God doesn't care what we "think" or what we "say"? I mean sure, I'm not talking about "punishment" or whatever, but obviously He is not ignorant. Remember that He is not just "loving" as per the Bible, but also a JUDGE. How can a judge judge (lol) if he doesn't care?
(and by judge I do not simply mean the "court-type" of judge, but ANY judgment, not just the classic "punishment")
Quote:
No, not at all, I'm saying that religion should evolve into a full-fledged philosophy, like protestantism once was.
Philosophic religion is more like theology. Yeah it's all good but it has nothing to do with what Rubycus was talking about, since prayers are by definition, not really theological. More like love.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 22, 2009 06:50 PM |
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Why can't love be a part of a philosophy?
Why must God be David Copperfield to some people?
Also, I don't think God really should care whether we believe in him or not. That's what I meant with 'not caring about thinking', because, yeah, if you're thinking fascist thoughts all the time or are designed (because I sometimes think God tests us with our very nature) as a psychopath, then e would have to judge you properly, but then again I'm thinking it's gross injustice if people with a mental illness (I think being a sociopath IS one) would be judged differently.
Is God politically correct?
About what we say, I again was referring to denouncing religion (or swearing, I think he's big enough to not really care about that, though he is unknowable). I didn't mean that a propagandist or a man that voices hate speech all the time shouldn't be treated differently than a man that preaches love all day.
I think God really cares about what we do, since that's what defines us. You think about murdering an orphanage, but have enough self-restraint to just not do that and bring flowers to the terminally ill instead, then why should you be sent to hell as well? (or be punished, since some theologists or people who spend time with their religion think hell doesn't exist) (I am inclined to agree, but anyway.) Likewise, if you act according to the best intentions, but... Act unethical because of that. Why would you deserve to be rewarded afterwards?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 22, 2009 07:05 PM |
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Quote:
Also, I don't think God really should care whether we believe in him or not. That's what I meant with 'not caring about thinking', because, yeah, if you're thinking fascist thoughts all the time or are designed (because I sometimes think God tests us with our very nature) as a psychopath, then e would have to judge you properly, but then again I'm thinking it's gross injustice if people with a mental illness (I think being a sociopath IS one) would be judged differently.
Indeed that's not exactly what I meant. This isn't as easy as saying it's either bad or good, thoughts are way more complicated than that. DOUBTS and HONESTY are amongst the most important characteristics.
Here's one example: saying "I'm sorry really" while not actually meaning it or being honest is the same as not saying anything at all, really. Applies to prayers too. (that is, if you just 'cite' it without caring, you could just as well save your time by not bothering with it).
Quote:
Is God politically correct?
What? That can only mask out speech, not thoughts. Why would He? It makes no sense
Quote:
About what we say, I again was referring to denouncing religion (or swearing, I think he's big enough to not really care about that, though he is unknowable). I didn't mean that a propagandist or a man that voices hate speech all the time shouldn't be treated differently than a man that preaches love all day.
I think God really cares about what we do, since that's what defines us. You think about murdering an orphanage, but have enough self-restraint to just not do that and bring flowers to the terminally ill instead, then why should you be sent to hell as well? (or be punished, since some theologists or people who spend time with their religion think hell doesn't exist) (I am inclined to agree, but anyway.) Likewise, if you act according to the best intentions, but... Act unethical because of that. Why would you deserve to be rewarded afterwards?
Ok I see you misinterpreted what I said.
I said that doubts play a factor as well. For example, someone who "wants" to do something 'bad' (whatever) but has doubts is vastly different than someone who has no remorse over it. That's why there's also repent.
Don't worry about it, if God exists, He sure knows what/when you are HONEST about it or have doubts, because that's what matters, not the "official masked thing".
Simply put, you can't mask out your thoughts for a mind reader like you do speech for a speech-hearer. 
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 22, 2009 07:25 PM |
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Quote:
What? That can only mask out speech, not thoughts. Why would He? It makes no sense
I was talking about mental illnesses.
I mean, I would never commit murder without remorse. I can't, simply because I care for life, but that is part of who I AM and of my EDUCATION, whether you believe in tabula rasa or not, I am not responsible for my nature, since that's decided by my parents or my nature. I can't denounce that. What does he do with the people HE created without remorse? How can he punish such people if he made them out that way or made sure they would?
So my question was: What would he do with the mentally handicapped? And I don't mean stupid people, I mean people whose brains are incompatible with compassion.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 22, 2009 08:40 PM |
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damn, opened to many windows at once and posted this elsewhere. Damn 
anyway..
You are in charge of yourself. Even if you don't feel compassion, you may simply don't murder people. I don't feel much compassion for people usually, but I don't gun them down
"Politically correct" is such an *** term. I hate it. Just btw.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 22, 2009 10:05 PM |
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Quote:
So my question was: What would he do with the mentally handicapped? And I don't mean stupid people, I mean people whose brains are incompatible with compassion.
Then it's not their fault. Just like an animal is also 'innocent' since it has no choice, those people have no choice as well. Mind you not all 'psychopaths' are actually that handicapped, some DO have an ability.
Whether or not that is relevant to the law/system/society is DIFFERENT than in the eyes of God. You can, of course, put them into an asylum because they're a "danger" to society, but they are still innocent.
And psychopaths who know what they do and they can stop but don't want, aren't innocent anymore. I'm saying this because there are indeed those that aren't so handicapped but pretend. (you can't hide from a mind-reader ).
How do we figure out if one is innocent or not? We don't, and frankly, it doesn't even matter. It only matters that God knows it, and He obviously does (if he exists ofc) since He is omniscient, don't worry about that
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Izzy
Known Hero
too cute 4 words
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posted April 23, 2009 02:47 AM |
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wow, this thread has a seriously long discussion. way too long for me to read every page so sorry if that offends anyone or ruins your current discussion. I'd just like to add my own point of view on 'god'.
it's an interesting thing all by itself. the idea that there exists an all powerful and all knowing being who demands perfection (as is the case with the jewish, christian, and muslim god). my family never pushed religion on us but that's because they couldn't settle on one. :-P my mother's side was buddhist and my father's side was christian. i've never settled on one because of two reasons. my mind can't accept the idea of a super spiritual being ruling over us from above and the second reason is because i don't feel like i need those ideals to make the choices that i make. if i make a mistake, i learn from it. i can honestly say that i've done a number of so called "sinful acts" but i don't live my life with regrets. i accept the choices that i make and that's all there is to it.
do i believe in in afterlife? not in the religious sense. i do have a slight belief in ghosts and all that so i suppose there is a possibility that if a soul exists, it can live on in a way. i don't know and nobody can say for sure so i'm not going to argue with anyone or try to disprove any beliefs. if you need to pray and worship to get you through life then by all means, go for it.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 23, 2009 03:53 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 15:53, 23 Apr 2009.
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I was reading an article on abcnews.com about the very unhappy reaction of the Catholic church to the new Angels and Demons movie (article here), and I was struck by a funny passage. In reference to the previous film, Da Vinci Code, the following paragraph appeared:
Even before the [Da Vinci Code] opened, the Vatican launched a PR campaign against it, with Archbishop Angelo Amato calling for a boycott of the movie. Opus Dei requested that [director] Howard and Sony Pictures add a disclaimer to the beginning of "The Da Vinci Code" stating it was a work of fiction. (emphasis my own)
Now, if Archbishop Angelo Amato and Opus Dei wants movies about Catholicism to state before the opening scenes that they are works of fiction, it seems only fair that the Catholic Church should begin their masses with the same disclaimer, don't you think?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 23, 2009 03:55 PM |
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Lol! Typical the vatican and the catholic church... Nothing personal to the catholics, but those guys have a sirius ego and/or perspective problem.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 23, 2009 04:12 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:14, 23 Apr 2009.
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I can't believe the Vatican has a "Chief Exorcist". How does one submit a resume for that job?
Chief Exorcist Gabriele Amorth on Harry Potter:
"Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of the darkness, the devil," Father Gabriele Amorth, the Pope's "caster-out of demons," told Britain's Daily Mail, adding that the books and movies served as vehicles for children to develop interest in the occult.
God forbid children should, I don't know, use their imaginations, have fun, and appreciate the benefits of reading a book. Oh no, it might actually be Satan trying to infect them and turn them into evil witches.
Lunacy. I can't believe people give money to, and waste their time worshiping at, this institution. 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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