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TheDeath
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posted April 08, 2009 11:39 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:50, 08 Apr 2009.
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How wrong  Just look back in history how often truth has changed.
Truth, by definition, cannot change, because if it does, it wasn't absolute truth to begin with. Else, like JJ said, there's no absolute truth, which means that it is subjective. And I don't think objectivists (which constitute most atheists) are happy with that.
You can claim something is truth (like people did and continue to do so while also claiming that they don't need beliefs!), but it doesn't make it so, if you think that it "can change", you've already contradicted yourself. (notice: if religious people claim that, it's not exactly as far-fetched, because they admit that they use something called 'belief', atheists don't...)
By the way angelito, the "image" means the soul, because that's what goes into God's place (well Heaven  ). You don't think that, obviously assuming the Bible is true, we would lose our image? How come God still has the image then, if our bodies are not there?
As for the understanding part, I don't think you have any idea about philosophy. Saying that God is susceptible to is saying that God has a human brain. Now I'm not actually aware that God has a human body at all, since after all, He would be the sole body in Heaven, for one example (cause we'll only have our souls). Secondly, even if we take it as a computer analogy (which is like, The Matrix, for example), what you said makes no sense at all.
If this "external" computer, well, is external/above/whatever you want to call it (notice: the word "above" is even valid in mathematical planes btw...) means that it runs the whole Universe, and it also means, the slightest movement is subject to that.
Think of it like a computer game (this Universe = God's game for example). You asked "do you think that it is reasonable to think that the CPU can understand every bit that happens on screen?"
I say "Sure, that's exactly what happens, and even more, since there are 'off-screen' computations and mechanics that are done, absolutely everything is done by the CPU/GPU/whatever piece of hardware, so yeah."
It may be hard to imagine (it's sure baby-easy to me ), but everytime you do anything at all on your computer, the stuff goes into the program, then the OS, then to kernel/drivers, etc.... and finally to the CPU. At its core, the CPU does all (well also the GPU in some cases, but same thing) with just simple instructions. I think it's fair to say that the CPU is not "lost" in all those billions of instructions per second and remembers EVERY AND EVERY LAST ONE of those instructions PERFECTLY and EXACTLY (else it wouldn't work).
And the CPU is a human invention inside THIS Universe (3D whatever)...
Technically, the only thing you'll ever need to build a CPU would be a NAND gate, which can be used to build some basic instructions. So basically, NAND does all simplicity yet so massive when you think about it.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted April 08, 2009 11:44 PM |
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Many seem to be eager to believe but no one want's to specify what is it that they believe.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Lexxan
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posted April 08, 2009 11:46 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 23:56, 08 Apr 2009.
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Many seem to be eager to believe but no one want's to specify what is it that they believe.
Excellent quote, Minnion. Indeed, if the believers simply reflected about what they believe in (instead of ousting the typical "God is the Almighty Lord" crap), theis debate would be a lot easier... if only because faith would a lot weaker because of this.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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iZombie
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 09, 2009 05:49 AM |
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Edited by iZombie at 05:52, 09 Apr 2009.
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Many seem to be eager to believe but no one want's to specify what is it that they believe.
This guy articulates what I believe. If you have an hour and can tolerate a sermon (and a prayer to start the sermon), this guy outlines fairly clearly what Christians believe (or should believe, if they claim to believe what the Bible says... it's not quite as complicated as some make it out to be).
http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/doctrine/creation-god-makes
P.S. - Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting a URL. I'm new to these boards... have been using them for Heroes 5 strategies up 'til now but I couldn't help but add my two cents (or Mark Driscoll's two cents) to the conversation. For those with the patience, or who are wondering how it is that someone could possibly believe in a creator, give it a listen. At the very least it'll shed some light on the whole debate.
P.S.S. - There are about 15 or 20 hour long sermons addressing various Christian doctrine on the marshillchurch.com website, so if you're curious, check them out. The guy is pretty easy to listen to.
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Doomforge
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posted April 09, 2009 11:21 AM |
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Oh...have we reached the famous "This is not to take word by word, it is just an analogy!" part again? I said picture, not COPY. So I am talking about the look, not the ability. If you bring up such things, you should stay a bit more accurate. So I ask again: Why did he gave Adam ears and eyes, if he himself doesn't have any at all? If he knows how to communicate in a different way (telepathy for example), why didn't he gave that possibility to Adam aswell?
No mate, we did not reach that stage. I try not to go there, the "analogy" argument is weak even for me, a theist
You're asking why did he give us this or that, which I don't know, but the real question is: why didn't he make us incorporeal, like he is? More important than the ears/eyes dillema, I think
And no, I don't know. In case you ask
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Wrong. It has been done already from scientist who investigate the BigBang theory. Of course in a very very small amount, but it happened. And our existing universe started pretty small too, right?
Come on mate, it's not "wrong", why do you even compare running a simulation to the real thing? We can't create anything from nothing, it's rather.. obvious. And we (theists) assume God can, so...
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Again wrong. God could also be something like a prophet, who spread his wise sayings thousands years ago. Someone like Jesus, or Mohammed, or however they are called in all those existing variations of religion. Or he was nothing else but an alien from a different planet who visited the earth thousands of years ago but had already the technology from nowadays. Who knows?
Just imagine you would visit the old egyptian country during the time the pyramids have been built, and have your cell phone, your laptop, a torch, a radio and a ak-47 with you. Don't you think you would be named "God" after a short time?
Think of it...
Most likely, but Jesus didn't act alien on the people, except for reviving and healing, but he did not use any visible technology, I guess it would be mentioned.
As for the wise alien, it doesn't solve the mystery.. it only takes it to another planet. Who created the wise aliens, then? Timetravel also doesn't cut.
As for God, a prophet can't create the universe, can he? Unless he's a God. Greater being
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angelito
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posted April 09, 2009 01:08 PM |
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You're asking why did he give us this or that, which I don't know, but the real question is: why didn't he make us incorporeal, like he is? More important than the ears/eyes dillema, I think
And no, I don't know. In case you ask
I think you underestimate the sense behind that question "dude". As far as I know, it is written "God formed Adam out of clay as a portrayal of himself." I know this is only "litteraly" meaning (), but for me, it shows that either "God" looks similar to a human being, or it was evolution which made our species look like that. An ameba, which has no extremities at all, looks more like a "soul" though. So what if God created the Universe with amebas as first species (as an image of his soul..), and all other species evolved from that form.
Any hard arguments against this theory?
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Come on mate, it's not "wrong", why do you even compare running a simulation to the real thing? We can't create anything from nothing, it's rather.. obvious. And we (theists) assume God can, so...
We don't know if there is something "behind" the universe, so don't assume it is created out of nothing. And nearly every discovery/invention started with a simulation.
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Most likely, but Jesus didn't act alien on the people, except for reviving and healing, but he did not use any visible technology, I guess it would be mentioned.
I am not talking about Jesus, I am talking about things like the aztecs, the pyramids, the easter islands etc....
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As for the wise alien, it doesn't solve the mystery.. it only takes it to another planet. Who created the wise aliens, then? Timetravel also doesn't cut.
God doesn't solve any mystery either, because we have the same question here: Who created God?
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As for God, a prophet can't create the universe, can he? Unless he's a God. Greater being
Maybe you do not need to "create" a whole universe, but just a hugh explosion (BigBang) and let everything evolve by time.
It is as if you would say: "1 man alone can't destroy a whole skyscraper." Of course not, but the dynamite he puts into that building will do that work for him..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2009 02:24 PM |
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Hmm, interesting topic. I have read few first pages and five latest and came to conclusion that main part of discussion dedicated to relation of science and Christianity (I suppose that most of people who stated that they are believers are Christians).
Other part of discussion touches the matters of morality (killing babies for the puppies, insulting religious feelings and etc).
As a person who interested in the matters of religion and faith, I would like to share some thoughts as well.
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As far as I know, it is written "God formed Adam out of clay as a portrayal of himself." I know this is only "litteraly" meaning (), but for me, it shows that either "God" looks similar to a human being, or it was evolution which made our species look like that. An ameba, which has no extremities at all, looks more like a "soul" though. So what if God created the Universe with amebas as first species (as an image of his soul..), and all other species evolved from that form.
Any hard arguments against this theory?
Ah, creationism issue. This theory requires no answers since it speaks for itself - soul is just a concept, an idea that is used in philosophy and theology. It's not a property of physical world.
So it seems that you are reducing the ideaof God to the concept of some absolute creature. In that case you are speaking of powerful extraterrestrials/aliens, but not of God.
What if God just imagined some creature that became known as man (along with other creatures and worlds), and that creature was alike to Him since it could imagine as well? Imagination is more important then knowledge, Einstein used to say.
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And we (theists) assume God can, so...
Well, why not to assume that our being (or being as it is) itself is a God?
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God doesn't solve any mystery either, because we have the same question here: Who created God?
According to the concept of God, He is a priori the Creator. He is not an object or some stable parameter of physical world that can be measured. Again your question indicates that you address existence of powerful extraterrestrials/aliens instead of addressing existence of God.
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As for God, a prophet can't create the universe, can he? Unless he's a God. Greater being
Hehe, and if God granted prophet the power to create a few universes does that makes prophet a God? At least to the creatures that populate that newly created universe?
Some other thoughts:
At the basis of every religion lies the text. And this text is a sacred one for specific group of people. The person who wants to explore the religion should explore the founding text at first.
When a person speaks of losing his faith in God what makes him saying so - his feeling, some inner sense, that he is trying to articulate in that way OR it is a revealing of rational conclusion based on some logic? If it is the feeling then I would like to inquire the speaker - why it is more convenient for him to present it as a rational discourse rather then in some metaphorical form (picture, poem, novel, music piece)? This question might seem to be funny, yet it is very important because faith is felt rather then thought.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted April 09, 2009 02:34 PM |
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Quote:
What if God just imagined some creature that became known as man (along with other creatures and worlds), and that creature was alike to Him since it could imagine as well? Imagination is more important then knowledge, Einstein used to say.
Brilliant! 
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted April 09, 2009 02:36 PM |
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Malgore, how would you describe God? And I don't mean that "eternal, creator" as they don't actually tell you anything. I mean like I believe Christian God is said to be all good (and all evil comes from Satan), that kind of attributes. What is it that you know/feel about God, what is the being like that you have faith in?
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Mytical
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posted April 09, 2009 02:45 PM |
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Neither does the 'big bang' explain anything at all. For matter and energy can not be created (they just change form), and the matter and energy from the 'big bang' would have to have come from somewhere
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Corribus
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posted April 09, 2009 03:13 PM |
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Neither does the 'big bang' explain anything at all. For matter and energy can not be created (they just change form), and the matter and energy from the 'big bang' would have to have come from somewhere
You gotta love strawman arguments...
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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angelito
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posted April 09, 2009 03:28 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:28, 09 Apr 2009.
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For matter and energy can not be created (they just change form), and the matter and energy from the 'big bang' would have to have come from somewhere
I heard it says the Soul is some kind of energy, and energy can't get lost, so it transfers (either into another kind of energy, or it travels to "heaven").
But if God created Adam (humans) as an image of himself, he has to be "pure energy" then. And how does this fit into "Energy can't be created" theory? 
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted April 09, 2009 07:07 PM |
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I'll give you a theory:
It is stated that the God is all-mighty.
It is also stated that God created life, human, everything.
But we know that the life and all species were born in a long process of evolution, while planets, mountains, oceans and such were born by matter gathering in the space.
There is no contradiction if we make a postulate that God is beyond the time itself and controls it.
Therefore, God creating the time, also has created everything that time has created.
This is also supported by the statement about God's eternity. Eternal, as not shackled by time.
Time is one of the four dimensions of our universe, as we know. And if God controls it, we can assume that He controls the three other dimensions as well, they being X, Y and Z -axises aka space.
The universe expands all the time, as is believed. Why?
I think it makes sense if we assume that God is the force behind the expanding universe and always forwarding time.
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TheDeath
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posted April 09, 2009 10:29 PM |
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Any hard arguments against this theory?
Yeah. God is in Heaven. Our bodies don't go to Heaven, according to religion. So isn't that obvious enough?
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God doesn't solve any mystery either, because we have the same question here: Who created God?
God created time. It is hard to imagine what was "before" God. Though if you think of something else, I'm all ears.
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But if God created Adam (humans) as an image of himself, he has to be "pure energy" then. And how does this fit into "Energy can't be created" theory?
It is said that only God can create, and man cannot. You think it might refer to this?
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And I don't mean that "eternal, creator" as they don't actually tell you anything.
That tells you a lot in fact, for those who like to think in mathematical terms.
It means God creates matter/energy (which is impossible from inside the Universe, but then again, neither can a computer game "create" more RAM, the God player has to add more ).
It also means God exists outside of time, since that's what "eternal" is supposed to mean here. Yes that's eternal, that is infinite. No, it's not "just a super-big-number", but truly infinite.
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Neither does the 'big bang' explain anything at all. For matter and energy can not be created (they just change form), and the matter and energy from the 'big bang' would have to have come from somewhere
You gotta love strawman arguments...
Actually she's right, but not in scientific sense, in philosophical sense. Yes of course science is not concerned with that, but she was speaking about absolute Truth as I have outlined, not just "useful truth".
In philosophical terms, the Big Bang doesn't explain where it came from.
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Mytical
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posted April 09, 2009 11:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Neither does the 'big bang' explain anything at all. For matter and energy can not be created (they just change form), and the matter and energy from the 'big bang' would have to have come from somewhere
You gotta love strawman arguments...
Hmm so it is ok to say that God doesn't explain anything, and ask who created god. Yet it is not to ask where the energy and matter came from, when it is very commonly 'understood' (won't use the word believed) that neither energy or matter can not be created?
Very well, I see.
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Corribus
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posted April 10, 2009 12:09 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 01:59, 10 Apr 2009.
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Quote:
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Neither does the 'big bang' explain anything at all. For matter and energy can not be created (they just change form), and the matter and energy from the 'big bang' would have to have come from somewhere
You gotta love strawman arguments...
Hmm so it is ok to say that God doesn't explain anything, and ask who created god. Yet it is not to ask where the energy and matter came from, when it is very commonly 'understood' (won't use the word believed) that neither energy or matter can not be created?
Very well, I see.
Your argument is a strawman argument, because it assumes that the Big Bang claims that matter and energy were created from nothing. It doesn't. Furthermore, just because a theory cannot explain one thing does not render the rest of invalid, which is another fallacious aspect of your reasoning.
I also find it amusing that people seem to think the world's most brilliant physicists would have been so stupid as to forget a very basic physics principle during the several decades development of one of physics' most complex theories. Don't you think it's perhaps more likely that your understanding of the theory is perhaps not complete enough to properly evaluate it? [The same thing happens with people pointing out basic so-called flaws in Evolutionary Theory]
(Edit: by the way, we had this exact discussion on page 76, after which you deleted a bunch of your posts at random for some reason and said you were never coming back. And yet, here you are, with the same wrong argument, obviously having learned nothing from the previous exchange...)
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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DagothGares
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posted April 10, 2009 02:01 AM |
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Haha, Hegel was wrong! Everyone, scram, it will just end up being an endless cycle.
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angelito
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posted April 10, 2009 12:22 PM |
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Yeah. God is in Heaven. Our bodies don't go to Heaven, according to religion. So isn't that obvious enough?
*sigh* What has this answer to do with my statement at all? It is just not possible to have a discussion with you, coz you completely ignore what others post, but just post what you have in mind right at that time. You may open an own forum where you're the only member. This would fit into your way of disuccions.
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God created time.
Says who???
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It is said that only God can create, and man cannot. You think it might refer to this?
Next example where we can see you do not even attempt to read what others write. I will repeat again slowly, so you may get the idea: Eneryg can't be created! God is pure energy, coz he made adam as an image of himself, and you stated the image which is meant here is his soul, and sould is pure energy! WHo was first then, God or energy? Chicken or egg?
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It means God creates matter/energy (which is impossible from inside the Universe, but then again, neither can a computer game "create" more RAM, the God player has to add more ).
Weak comparison. Even the programmer himself can't "create" more RAM. So what now?
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It also means God exists outside of time, since that's what "eternal" is supposed to mean here. Yes that's eternal, that is infinite. No, it's not "just a super-big-number", but truly infinite.
And who told you that?
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baklava
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posted April 10, 2009 01:09 PM |
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It's a pretty simple conclusion that God created time if you assume that God exists as the Creator. If he created everything, and time falls into the category of "everything", then a logical conclusion is that he created time, innit?
Has it occurred to anyone that Adam being an "image of God himself" might not mean that "God has two ears, two eyes, hairy chest and a digestive tract"? That he might have created Adam (which would again mean the entire human race) as a hopefully free and sentient being which would help create and shape the world, just like God does (only on a higher level), and that that's the idea behind the "image of God"?
Also, this could all be made of energy. Matter (and antimatter) might be a form of energy. Everything could be energy, and energy could be God. Which is older, in that case? None, since it's the same thing.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Minion
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posted April 10, 2009 01:36 PM |
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The story of Adam and Eve is a modified tale from older Sumerian texts.
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